World War III

[Obiwanshinobi]

I can work those 16 hours-long shifts (not joking) where I live, whilst enjoying democratic freedoms (still not joking).
Admittedly, the latter are effectively suspended for foreign workers. I'm not sure why Chinese labourers' words don't become flesh and they don't stay here, but I have my suspicions. They probably hope their wages (low by local standards) will make for some hefty savings, unhindered by inflation, in the future. If I know about any Chinese Dream, it's this one.
As for the North Koreans, apparently you can hire a bunch of slaves via North Korean consulate as an employment agency. Doing something about it would be bad for diplomatic relations. Rotten deal.

What applause are you referring to?

See this thread.

Freedom is a desire as well, but not at the cost of a better, consistent life.

I understand that if in China the higher your social status, the plumpier you're supposed to look, it's because starvation has been always a threat. This and the awareness that you need children to live a long life are signs of wisdom long gone in the West.
I have, however, personally witnessed how certain freedoms make everything better and I can only hope the Chinese working abroad will carry this wisdom home.

I'm not familiar enough with the Eastern Bloc countries or Germany so I don't get the reference there nor how Germans have more fun.

Just listed some countries walking the commendable path from imprisonment to freedom in my opinion.

I don't understand this scenario. Is the leader being fired with or without his village? What does that have to do with productive workers?

It's the Zone thing that may not be obvious in North America, where density of population is lower and the society is more nomadic.
Over here, many people would rather look for a job in their area than move to where the job is. We don't have many ghost towns. Many towns populated by redundant folk instead (it's changing quickly, though; the society is in motion).
The Zone companies are obliged to employ the locals (hence the "internal export of cheap hands" description) and provide them with transport.
The company in discussion sorts the staff out not by experience and skill, but by buses. No matter how good a worker you are, if you happen to be on the wrong bus when layoff comes, you're fired. That's the essence of it and the quality DOES suffer.
Zones could use a treatise of The Chrysanthemum and the Sword or The History of the Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire grandeur. I don't feel like going there at the moment.

The first time I learned on my own that Chinese states were fighting battles 10 times the size of that of the (original) Roman Empire during the same time period, I realized that my understanding of worldwide historical importance was woefully lacking.

My ancestors fought pretty enormous forces quite effectively. We lost the "civilisational race" all the same. Possibly the reason why I don't have much respect for military prowess.
I'm under impression that in China being a soldier, cop or hoodlum are very few people's dream jobs too.

[Skykid]

Your words suggest otherwise to my ears, sorry.

Okay. Not really my problem. You can continue to do me the disservice of suggesting I'm a dimwit while making your comments unnecessarily personal, and I'll tune in next time to see how many latin phrases you can squeeze onto the end of your interim paragraphs.

It is more complex than you're making it to be. But a bottom point is: China lacks a minimum wage system, and the department of the Ministry of Economy that monitors prices does not control all the markets equally, they just intervene when markets spyral into crisis situations (real estate, food 2008-2012). This is a terrible, terrible flaw for a communist country, and nobody bothers to improve and lock purchasing power to increases of salary.

Absolutely agree. On the outskirts of Nanning, the provincial capital of Guanxi, there's a town literally made of rubble: the disparity is actually as visible as a city's doorstep. As I mentioned previously, growing disproportionate wealth is one of several critical issues compounded by rapid inflation and unfettered wage control between regions. China's economic miracle has been built on a system of uncapped free enterprise, but I'm as surprised as anyone that there's been no attempt by this point to properly regulate market growth and standardise minimum wages countrywide.

We can ask Obiwanshinobi: how much Fox tv you get, in Czech Republic, a country which could tell a million stories about communism and capitalism, if countries could speak?

Sorry, that's completely beside the point. I'm not using Bill O'Reilly and the lead paint brigade in the literal, just one that illustrates Obiwanshinobi's line of thinking. I'm quite confident he has the internet even if he doesn't have Fox News.

Capitalist revolution? Given that we are no longer living in the age of feudalism any attempt to conserve and prolong capitalist relationships in the economy in a world where capitalism has long exhausted any progressiveness it initially had can only amount to an outright reaction not a revolution of any sort. The actual revolution would involve the socialization of land and factories and mass violence against CPC bureaucrats and Chinese capitalists.

That would be the capitalist revolution of 1989, the move from Maoism into global economic trade. Call it whatever you want, it's all relative, but I highly suggest watching this documentary if you can find it:

China's Capitalist Revolution

What`s communist about it?

"You need to move out, we're knocking your house down in the name of progress."

"Can I take this up with my local MP?"

"You don't have a local MP."

And China is not a success story of any kind.

That's too stupid a comment to deserve an in-depth response.

How is that a good thing anywhere let alone in a country with such tremendous social inequality?

One might view it as part of an economic success story.

Oh, wait -

[Jonathan Ingram]

That's too stupid a comment to deserve an in-depth response.

The world`s biggest sweatshop with working people slaving away for multinationals for miserable salary is not a success story of any kind to me. Sorry.

"You need to move out, we're knocking your house down in the name of progress."

"Can I take this up with my local MP?"

"You don't have a local MP."

Yep, that`s communism. So funny I`m dieing here.

One might view it as part of an economic success story.

Oh, wait -

Only in capitalist terms, considering how capitalism is based on the endless pursuit of profit and capital accumulation. In communist terms these people are social parasites by definition. They produce no material product themselves but appropriate the product of other people`s labor. In post-"socialist" nations, many of these got rich by privatizing vast assets of state property for peanuts.

[Skykid]

Yep, that`s communism. So funny I`m dieing here.

No, you're dying there.

And it's not that funny, because it's not a joke and I'm not talking to an infant. I'd wager you're perfectly capable of understanding the meaning behind the example as an aspect of the CCP's power to usurp land from residents without the red tape found in most democracies.

Furthermore, your question was "what's communist about it?", not "what is communism?" Perhaps you should pay attention to your own questions before letting your fingers loose on a keyboard.

If you wanted to get into a sprawling discussion on the semantics of communism as practiced by stalinist, maoist and north vietnamese regimes, versus marxist theories and the works of Bertolt Brecht, perhaps you should have said so instead of returning with such a childish response.

The world`s biggest sweatshop with working people slaving away for multinationals for miserable salary is not a success story of any kind to me. Sorry.

Well in that case there must be nothing achieved that can be considered worthwhile whatsoever. I'll see to it you get a written letter of recognition on behalf of the entire northern hemisphere, who will have to plough on in their drudgery until a spell of good fortune comes their way.

Only in capitalist terms, considering how capitalism is based on the endless pursuit of profit and capital accumulation. In communist terms these people are social parasites by definition. They produce no material product themselves but appropriate the product of other people`s labor. In post-"socialist" nations, many of these got rich by privatizing vast assets of state property for peanuts.

My mother escaped communist Hungary while under Russian control, and we have family friends that appropriated state property after the collapse of the regime, now worth a small fortune. But your argument is essentially going back to the semantics: Effectively the Chinese can no longer be considered communist in economic terms at all, only their authoritarian government practices retain some of the overhang.
There's no dispute here, I feel like you're just fishing for non-existent arguments. Badly.

[Jonathan Ingram]

No, you're dying there.

And it's not that funny, because it's not a joke and I'm not talking to an infant. I'd wager you're perfectly capable of understanding the meaning behind the example as an aspect of the CCP's power to usurp land from residents without the red tape found in most democracies.

The "democracies" have historically had little trouble taking land away from peasantry. It was a feature of capitalism as it developed, a pre-condition for capitalist construction completely unrelated to communism. It`s happening in India as we speak without any "communist" involvement.

Banks kicking people away from their homes is another "democratic" feature, no red tape required.

My mother escaped communist Hungary while under Russian control, and we have family friends that appropriated state property after the collapse of the regime, now worth a small fortune.

Cool story. Some details as to what they got their hands on would be appreciated.

[Skykid]

My mother escaped communist Hungary while under Russian control, and we have family friends that appropriated state property after the collapse of the regime, now worth a small fortune.

Cool story. Some details as to what they got their hands on would be appreciated.

A house overlooking Budapest in one of the wealthier estates. That was a single mother, actually (who usurped it from some unfortunate individual, who knows) and managed to hold onto it after the collapse of the communist bloc. It's a bit too large for one person now her son and daughter have moved out, but a very beautiful spot and we were lucky to stay there last visit.

The "democracies" have historically had little trouble taking land away from peasantry. It was a feature of capitalism as it developed, a pre-condition for capitalist construction completely unrelated to communism. It`s happening in India as we speak without any "communist" involvement.

Banks kicking people away from their homes is another "democratic" feature, no red tape required.

A nice smattering of alternative examples of similar practices within democratic states. The example I gave may not be communist by your personal definitions, but its still a power of the Chinese Communist Party that has nothing to do with banks or corporations finding ways to steamroll people out of their properties so they can build a superhighway.

I think you know what I was getting at tbh, no need to turn this thread into WWIII.

[Ganelon]

And China is not a success story of any kind. It`s a third-rate capitalist shithole complete with sweatshops and child labor. The GDP size is of irrelevance here since that`s not what determines a country`s place in the global capitalist system. The role it plays in it is what`s important here. And as such, China is nothing more but a supplier of cheap labor for core capitalist nations.

So you're basically saying cheap manufacturing jobs don't count towards a country's success. I can see why you'd think that; Scandinavian cultural standards seem to focus on the government making everyone's lives comfortable (which would probably be how idealistic communism would work) while Obiwanshinobi's technocratic standard was that successful countries need to initiate change and innovation.

I'm not sure where you live (Russia certainly doesn't represent your ideals) but factoring out grunt manufacturing isn't a mainstream view in the US, and for good reason: it would be hypocritical in light of historical standards. When the majority of the US populace was toiling away in plants or working in the farms during the Gilded Age, who was saying that the US wasn't advancing in the world? Times and standards have changed, but perhaps all countries vying for global success need to pass that phase of thankless hard work to reach a greater understanding on peoples' rights and surpass others on the economic ladder. We'll see in a few decades if China reaches the same Progressive Era that the US experienced post-industrial boom.

It seems you're not a fan of capitalism in general, in which case I'm curious which of today's governments you favor the most. I believe only a few small European countries would fit the bill. It's interesting from this discussion how someone's standards for what a state should focus on results in such disparate judgments on its success or failure. I just wish the conviction was toned down a notch.

[system11]

The spread of Islamist regimes has only been a side-effect of the root cause. austere could elaborate, but I don't know if he'd care to do so.

Root cause: continued belief in sky pixies.

[Jonathan Ingram]

A house overlooking Budapest in one of the wealthier estates. That was a single mother, actually (who usurped it from some unfortunate individual, who knows) and managed to hold onto it after the collapse of the communist bloc. It's a bit too large for one person now her son and daughter have moved out, but a very beautiful spot and we were lucky to stay there last visit.

That`s pretty standard stuff then. I assumed it was related to production. But privatization of the housing given for free by previous regimes is something most of the population was involved with. It was somewhat of a bribery on the part of the new neo-liberal governments to make people more receptive to the forthcoming shock therapy reforms. Like, "here, you can privatize the apartment or house that you live in(even though there are very little benefits to reap from it) and we`ll take everything else".

Thanks for the details.

I'm not sure where you live (Russia certainly doesn't represent your ideals) but factoring out grunt manufacturing isn't a mainstream view in the US, and for good reason: it would be hypocritical in light of historical standards. When the majority of the US populace was toiling away in plants or working in the farms during the Gilded Age, who was saying that the US wasn't advancing in the world? Times and standards have changed, but perhaps all countries vying for global success need to pass that phase of thankless hard work to reach a greater understanding on peoples' rights and surpass others on the economic ladder. We'll see in a few decades if China reaches the same Progressive Era that the US experienced post-industrial boom.

You`re talking about economic development along the linear scale: if country A reaches a point B in its development, then country C can reach the point B too. But I don`t think that`s how it works in the capitalist system. Just because a select number of nations can advance to a certain level of development under capitalism doesn`t mean it`s feasible for the rest of the world to do so too, simply due to how capitalism operates. To put it in very simplistic terms: country A won`t allow country B to reach point C because it`s against its interests.

I already mentioned the Core-Periphery concept in this thread. It`s a Marxist concept according to which the world is divided into core(or imperialist) capitalist nations and capitalist periphery which comprises most of the world. The latter is subject to heavy economic exploitation by the former. The exploitation allows the core nations to have vastly higher standards of living than in the economically exploited countries, softens the existing class antagonisms and quells any potential for a popular social revolution. Basically, the most horrible forms of exploitation are "outsourced" to elsewhere allowing the capitalism in the core countries to have somewhat of a human face(at least in comparison to the rest of the world).

Lenin`s "Imperialism as the Highest Stage of Capitalism" is the most important and influential work in this regard and it`s been the key inspiration for similar works. There`s a book called "Capitalism and Underdevelopment in Latin America" by Andrew Gunder Frank who worked in Allende`s government until Pinochet`s coup. He argues that capitalist periphery exists entirely to serve the economic interests of the core nations("capitalist centres" as he calls them) and that it`s kept deliberately underdeveloped for that purpose. A contemporary Russian Marxist Boris Kagarlitsky`s "Empire of the Periphery: Russia and the World System" influenced by Marxist sociologist Immanuel Wallerstein`s world system theory deals with slightly different issues than Gunder Frank`s book and talks about the peripheral nature of Russian capitalism. Kagarlitsky argues that the rapid economic growth that Russia experienced in early 20th century conflicted with the country`s inability to overcome its status as the peripheral capitalist economy and that only "switching off" from the global capitalist system entirely allowed it to reach levels of development it could never hope to reach otherwise and that similarly getting back into it triggered severe economic depression complete with de-industrialization and a sharp drop in living standards.

Some food for thought... Germany de-industrialized half the Eastern Europe(having tested the model on former Eastern Germany first) just to create/expand markets for its own companies. The Greek protestors greeting Merkel with banners saying "Fourth Reich" are not too far off the mark.

It seems you're not a fan of capitalism in general, in which case I'm curious which of today's governments you favor the most.

None whatsoever given how capitalism covers the entirety of the planet`s surface with the exception of maybe North Korea(but that`s a dead end, not an alternative of any kind). Capitalism has reached its peak and started to erode. The dissolution of the former Socialist Block and Deng`s reforms in China prolonged capitalism`s life and gave it a new boost by providing new markets for expansion. But the system is just about at its limit with nowhere left to expand to. If the system based on endless accumulation comes to the end of such accumulation, it will self-destroy, literally. Such contradictions inherent to capitalism can only be overcome by switching to a new socio-economic formation. "The end of history" or "sustainable capitalism" is nonsense of the highest proportions and is simply never going to happen.

Marx and Engels regarded all human development as pre-history and believed that the real history will start only with the complete elimination of class antagonisms. In before any potential accusations of idealism and utopianism... It isn`t really idealistic in the slightest. The communism of Gracchus Babeuf is idealistic and utopian, but Marxist socialism is scientific by definition("Socialism: Utopian and Scientific" by Engels for reference).

[Skykid]

Speaking of Marx, look where I was today.

[Jonathan Ingram]

I`m resolved to visit that place one day to perform Hajj.

[Randorama]

Okay. Not really my problem. You can continue to do me the disservice of suggesting I'm a dimwit while making your comments unnecessarily personal, and I'll tune in next time to see how many latin phrases you can squeeze onto the end of your interim paragraphs.

I am not suggesting you're a dimwit, I saying that your comments are not hedged enough to match your actual opinions, which also appear conflicting, to me (but enough of my opinion). Do I need to remind you that you were able to use the word "communist", in a similar thread, in two completely opposite ways? Or that you consider China's growth a "miracle"? If yourr opinion is more nuanced, why you don't say so?

Absolutely agree. On the outskirts of Nanning, the provincial capital of Guanxi, there's a town literally made of rubble: the disparity is actually as visible as a city's doorstep. As I mentioned previously, growing disproportionate wealth is one of several critical issues compounded by rapid inflation and unfettered wage control between regions. China's economic miracle has been built on a system of uncapped free enterprise, but I'm as surprised as anyone that there's been no attempt by this point to properly regulate market growth and standardise minimum wages countrywide.

"No attempt" is incorrect. I recall reading that different regions and conurbates implemented specific policies precisely on problems of purchasing power (say: intricate system of price assessment for food & rent), but there was no national policy about welfare redistribution. I am sorry but I can't recall where I read it. I am somewhat convinced that these policies can be found in Guandong, among other regions. Lack of a national strategy is a common phenomenon in "China": after all, we are really talking of a continent organized as a federal state, with ample autonomies (when we shouldn't, really). Unless it is a trivial issue, like censoring porn and cutting down reality shows.

I don't believe in the "chinese miracle" or "Chinas's success story", mostly because the actual states of things are so complex, that it is not so clear whether the whole country is going to nowhere (like every other country), or that some of its specific, local solutions could be a valid alternative to the current state of affairs, if extended to the whole country. Then again, I don't watch the news, or read the newspapers.

Sorry, that's completely beside the point. I'm not using Bill O'Reilly and the lead paint brigade in the literal, just one that illustrates Obiwanshinobi's line of thinking. I'm quite confident he has the internet even if he doesn't have Fox News.

Perfectly fine, but a general observation that I have is that the portrait of "Chinese" matters in the "West" tends to vary a lot, from country to country, and Obiwan's positions do not seem to necessarily align with "Fox news", i.e. a certain type of right-wing propaganda. Just to make an example, Orwell criticized the CCCP from the left, not from the right, no?

[Skykid]

I am not suggesting you're a dimwit, I saying that your comments are not hedged enough to match your actual opinions, which also appear conflicting, to me (but enough of my opinion). Do I need to remind you that you were able to use the word "communist", in a similar thread, in two completely opposite ways? Or that you consider China's growth a "miracle"? If yourr opinion is more nuanced, why you don't say so?

I have absolutely no qualms in welcoming the views of people more learned on a subject than myself, and I consider both you - and Jon Ingram, based on four posts up - to be in possession of an awesome level of knowledge regarding the topics discussed. What I dislike is when the sharing of information comes with unnecessary vitriol; alas, that seems to be the burden of any serious internet debate, and I'm as guilty as any.

To be frank: when it comes to China, I'm a cup's half full optimist. I've spent six months there across three trips and have a vested interest in the region. The term 'Economic Miracle' isn't something I invented, but one that's regularly banded about in the presses: its usage is simply a descriptor I plucked from memory. I can't be more nuanced as to the inner devices of the economy, its breakdown or distribution of wealth - at least to the degree that you are - because I haven't studied it in the same detail. The following being a good example:

"No attempt" is incorrect. I recall reading that different regions and conurbates implemented specific policies precisely on problems of purchasing power (say: intricate system of price assessment for food & rent), but there was no national policy about welfare redistribution.

This is interesting. I definitely haven't heard of specific regions practicing any kind of affordability balancing (I'd like to think that was true) but I'm confident there's no national policy of welfare distribution. I'm not sure about rent etc, but I am aware that restrictions have been put in place regarding multiple home ownership to avoid an unaffordable housing bubble created by the new rich. That said, that may be unique to Guanxi, but I'd be surprised if it wasn't a nationwide instruction.

I don't believe in the "chinese miracle" or "Chinas's success story", mostly because the actual states of things are so complex, that it is not so clear whether the whole country is going to nowhere (like every other country), or that some of its specific, local solutions could be a valid alternative to the current state of affairs, if extended to the whole country. Then again, I don't watch the news, or read the newspapers.

Unfortunately I do, but mainly to get both sides of the coin. It's absolutely fair if you don't believe 'economic miracle' is justified - I'm certainly not going to argue with the suggestion that there are enormous problems yet to be settled or addressed. But again, I'm an optimist looking at the achievements thus far, in spite of the complications, some of which are to be expected in a developing nation, others based on more questionable governing and a lack of ingenuity.

If anything stands out as most economically impressive to me, it's the country's debt free distinction - and that's disregarding the US's regular appeals (or desperate pleas) to the WTO to bring injunctions on Chinese trading practices.

Perfectly fine, but a general observation that I have is that the portrait of "Chinese" matters in the "West" tends to vary a lot, from country to country, and Obiwan's positions do not seem to necessarily align with "Fox news", i.e. a certain type of right-wing propaganda. Just to make an example, Orwell criticized the CCCP from the left, not from the right, no?

Not sure I agree with this. The sentiment Obiwan expressed is a broad base level view that seems to surface all too commonly, regardless of region. Perhaps there are differing representations between a specific country's media, but I'd wager that when it comes to negative press the spin is uniformly similar - hence his stereo-typically negative views.

[Jonathan Ingram]

There`s a book called "The Rise of China and the Demise of the Capitalist World Economy" by a contemporary Chinese Marxist sociologist and economist Minqi Li. Despite being relatively short, it gives a detailed account of China`s Maoist past and its capitalist present. I disagree with some of Li`s analysis of modern China, but I found the book to be a very good read nonetheless. Li was initially a supporter of free-market capitalism and participated in Tiananmen protests in 1989. But after seeing the destructive effects that neoliberal capitalism had on China and getting acquainted with Marxism, he changed his views to diametrically opposite. He is a supporter of Wallerstein`s World Systems theory that I mentioned before. He also has works dealing with the issues of class struggle in capitalist China, but I haven`t got around to reading them yet. I have the book in PDF format, if anyone`s interested.

[Skykid]

I have the book in PDF format, if anyone`s interested.

Yes, very! Would you mind PM'ing it over?

[Jonathan Ingram]

Sure thing. Is it possible to attach files to PMs here? I don`t see the option.

Edit: I uploaded it to Mediafire:
http://www.mediafire.com/?qpdya364rqr70l1

[Skykid]

Perfect, thanks. You can't attach files in PM's, I just wasn't sure if you wanted to put the link publicly.

The original publishing credits: 345 Archway Road, London N6 - is literally on my doorstep, which gave me one of those weird but totally inconsequential instances of familiarity.

[Jonathan Ingram]

Meanwhile in Greece...

Fear and loathing in Athens: the rise of Golden Dawn and the far right

In austerity-ravaged Greece, neo-Nazi party Golden Dawn is on the rise. Their MPs give fascist salutes, while on the streets black-shirted vigilantes beat up immigrants. And some of their most enthusiastic supporters are in the police

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2012/oc ... intcmp=122

Just a few years ago these guys were a bunch of marginals with no popular support. Now they are viewed positively by 20-25% of the population based on recently conducted surveys. Their popularity increased three-fold in the past six months alone. They can`t match the Greek radical left in terms of street presence just yet, but it`s just a matter of time if things keep up like that.

[Obiwanshinobi]

Not exactly Czech Republic here, but pretty close in more ways than one (a far cry from in about as many other ways). Nevertheless, when Czechoslovakia (pre-occupied by Red Army) got invaded by the other Warsaw Pact forces in 1968, two people set themselves ablaze and I doubt you've heard about either. Seems to me that what we're about to witness won't let us dudes of the internet just sigh and move on so easily.
I've been cooking a wordy digression, but Arabs killing Arabs the other day (Syrian Armed Forces vs Palestinian refugees, huh?) have distinguished my appetite.
As we watch Third World stabilising itself with blood, I'm in no mood to give China hugs. Still curious what hugs have some of you to give. How would you convince people born in China that their coutry of origin is any good? What are they free to do there that you are not free to do in yours?

[Jonathan Ingram]

Not exactly Czech Republic here, but pretty close in more ways than one (a far cry from in about as many other ways). Nevertheless, when Czechoslovakia (pre-occupied by Red Army) got invaded by the other Warsaw Pact forces in 1968, two people set themselves ablaze and I doubt you've heard about either. Seems to me that what we're about to witness won't let us dudes of the internet just sigh and move on so easily.
I've been cooking a wordy digression, but Arabs killing Arabs the other day (Syrian Armed Forces vs Palestinian refugees, huh?) have distinguished my appetite.
As we watch Third World stabilising itself with blood, I'm in no mood to give China hugs. Still curious what hugs have some of you to give. How would you convince people born in China that their coutry of origin is any good? What are they free to do there that you are not free to do in yours?

No offense, but I re-read this several times and I still have no idea what you were trying to say.

[trap15]

No offense, but I re-read this several times and I still have no idea what you were trying to say.

[Obiwanshinobi]

Two people performed self-immolation back then. As Susan Jacks sung, oh dear, what could the matter be?

[trap15]

I'm still not following. What does two people killing themselves in a sacrificial way for a completely different situation have to do with these current events?

[Skykid]

No offense, but I re-read this several times and I still have no idea what you were trying to say.

[Obiwanshinobi]

I'm still not following. What does two people killing themselves in a sacrificial way for a completely different situation have to do with these current events?

Is the situation completely different? I see "current events" going against our efforts to feel good about things.

[Skykid]

I'm still not following. What does two people killing themselves in a sacrificial way for a completely different situation have to do with these current events?

Is the situation completely different? I see "current events" going against our efforts to feel good about things.

Is it possible to illustrate what it is that's depressing you in terms of "current events" so that we might discuss? It's like some kind of riddle at the moment.

[Obiwanshinobi]

What's happening in Middle East and North Africa doesn't suit the image I had until recently about the way mankind is divided. The side I've been cheering on seems weaker than I thought.

[Jonathan Ingram]

Is the situation completely different? I see "current events" going against our efforts to feel good about things.

Completely different from what? What are you comparing it to?

[Obiwanshinobi]

Some people are fed up with their poverty and petrified authorities. Those people reach for freedoms that are not out of this world (exist in its other parts). Such as freedom to replace the people at power peacefully with some other people now and then. The people who were given those freedoms at birth, instead of helping them out, are in fear of the stagnate world order getting ruined.

[Skykid]

Some people are fed up with their poverty and petrified authorities. Those people reach for freedoms that are not out of this world (exist in its other parts). Such as freedom to replace the people at power peacefully with some other people now and then. The people who were given those freedoms at birth, instead of helping them out, are in fear of the stagnate world order getting ruined.

Dude, the I'm drunk thread isn't too far from here.

It's difficult to get a handle on what you're saying.
There is no freedom at birth, there is no freedom in democracy. What is the ideology of which you speak?