Racism common in London?

[Randorama]

Calm discussions about race

But there's no such thing as a "race", is there? Or, now, you want to tell me that you're not discussing over everything else except thin air?

Did you rabble go to school, by chance?

[louisg]

Calm discussions about race

But there's no such thing as a "race", is there? Or, now, you want to tell me that you're not discussing over everything else except thin air?

Did you rabble go to school, by chance?

Rando, if there's a race, you're losing it

[Drachenherz]

Rando, if there's a race, you're losing it

*rimshot*

[Randorama]

Rando, if there's a race, you're losing it

Discussions are not competitions, at least for an intelligent adult. I made some very specific points and you (plural) are entirely avoiding to address them, while at the same time pretending to:

A. Have a debate on a non-sensical topic ("race" and "racism");
B. Acknoweldge you have a lack of understanding of the discussion;

As far as I am concerned, I don't need an overt answer on the questions and points I made. The failure of an articulated answer and the pretense that I did not make any questions, signals the lack of knowledge and intellect of the individuals addressed.

But feel free to feel like you're saving the world with your lacksadisical PCness, little fella.

[Ganelon]

Randorama: I wasn't focused on Europe specifically. My main point was just that I don't speak for any other country other than the US because I have little firsthand accounts about other countries. That said, I have known Asians who previously lived in all 5 of the European countries you mentioned and 4 of them found the US a more fair and merit-based environment in terms of career opportunities (and yet none of them feel that the US is perfectly fair either).

Perhaps that's due to circumstance (they're in the US now, and it's always better to know you're moving up in the world) and perhaps that's because I live in a more diverse part of the country that doesn't seem to resemble the common "Eagleland" perception held by non-Americans. After all, each state in the US could be as different as a country in Europe; living in Mississippi will likely be a more awkward experience for a minority than living in California.

But again, I trust my own experience foremost and have little here so if you feel that Europe is much more progressive in this regard, then I have no comments for or against. If you have some other point about the meaning of race, then I'm afraid I didn't understand it.

[Randorama]

That said, I have known Asians who previously lived in all 5 of the European countries you mentioned and 4 of them found the US a more fair and merit-based environment in terms of career opportunities (and yet none of them feel that the US is perfectly fair either).


Perhaps that's due to circumstance (they're in the US now, and it's always better to know you're moving up in the world) and perhaps that's because I live in a more diverse part of the country that doesn't seem to resemble the common "Eagleland" perception held by non-Americans. After all, each state in the US could be as different as a country in Europe; living in Mississippi will likely be a more awkward experience for a minority than living in California.

But again, I trust my own experience foremost and have little here so if you feel that Europe is much more progressive in this regard, then I have no comments for or against.

My key point is that I don't feel anything about this topic: the statistics I read on, say, complex indexes of social integration (e.g. how likely is that one ends up earning a lot and doing a good job, regardless of the skin colour), then the countries I mentioned score much better than the US, last time I checked (2009). Now, if your asians friends have a different perception, it bears no empirical relevance on official, scientifically-tested data, I think.

I don't doubt that they have that feeling: but insofar as you don't ask them why they have that, where they lived and for how long, then I safely consider their opinion garbage, and not the vaguest support for the unfounded claim that US has it right, on integration issues. Among other things, "Asian" (from where? Asia's a continent) people are likely to come from societies that were amply fucked up by the US, history-wise, hence they grew up in systems that are closer to the US one, and may be easier to deal with, for them.

Sorry, but anedoctes won't do, especially not on this topic.

If you have some other point about the meaning of race, then I'm afraid I didn't understand it.

There's no such thing as "race", nor racism for that matter. Humans compute social relations on the basis of in-group and out-group: either us, or them. Colour of the skin does not predict jack, since there are tons of other variables that play a much more important role (say: beliefs). The Anglo obsession with this matter is well beyond embarassing, as this very thread testifies.

[Ganelon]

I agree that a select few anecdotes (from Chinese BTW) aren't reliable to infer upon an entire country but they at least reflect firsthand experiences. If you have a larger sample of facts at your disposal, then please share them so we can see how they were measured. I don't doubt that you've seen something but it seems we've already had a misunderstanding of statistics in this topic and I don't recall reading any news recently pointing to Europe as a model of equality.

For example, there's a significantly higher proportion of minorities serving in the US Congress than in similar European law-making institutions that I'm aware of. Assuming there's not an exception somewhere, someone could make the case from this confirmable metric that the US is less racist than anywhere else. Are these racial demographics of elected officials the best metric to use when determining a country's racism? That's not clear, but similarly, the ends and means of studies aren't always clearly connected.

[Randorama]

I agree that a select few anecdotes (from Chinese BTW) aren't reliable to infer upon an entire country but they at least reflect firsthand experiences. If you have a larger sample of facts at your disposal, then please share them so we can see how they were measured. I don't doubt that you've seen something but it seems we've already had a misunderstanding of statistics in this topic and I don't recall reading any news recently pointing to Europe as a model of equality.

http://fra.europa.eu/fraWebsite/research/publications/annual_report_on_fundamental_rights/ar2009_part2_en.htm.
You can pit those figures with equivalent ones for the US and keep in mind the different population sizes, if you have time to spare. If I can find the relevant paper that does this (again), I'll post it. You probably need to look country-by-country to get a better picture.

Aside that, precisely why firsthand experience can be taken seriously?

For example, there's a significantly higher proportion of minorities serving in the US Congress than in similar European law-making institutions that I'm aware of.
Assuming there's not an exception somewhere, someone could make the case from this confirmable metric that the US is less racist than anywhere else. Are these racial demographics of elected officials the best metric to use when determining a country's racism? That's not clear, but similarly, the ends and means of studies aren't always clearly connected.

I wouldn't take this factor as particularly important, as most immigrants in EU are often first, second or third generation, and not necessarily so involved in the long history of European politics as to have a clean political affiliation. First generation immigrants need a while, before they can vote, as citizenship is a pre-requisite, and that takes at least 10 years in most countries. A general fact: non-ethnic politicians in most EU countries crop up in new or non-mainstream parties (e.g. Greens in Germany and France), as they seldom consider themselves as in line with century-old political traditions.

Besides, how many US senators/Generals/federal judges/etc. are non-WASP? Mere representation counts up to jack, especially in US politics. I may not know the ins and outs of congress, but I doubt that it holds the key to the US's future. Wasn't that exactly your point about Dubya and his claque?

And, sorry, but still with this racism thing? I guess that bad habits really die hard.

[Ganelon]

And, sorry, but still with this racism thing? I guess that bad habits really die hard.

Come on now, the pot calling the kettle black? You're the one who nagged me on the most minor guess of my 2nd to last post—a point I clearly only included to remind everyone that my views applied only to the US—and treated it as a big deal that had to be settled. If I consider something meaningless, then I won't even read about it. If the topic of racism has little meaning to you, then it behooves you to act that way.

If you want to continue, then please cut out the "better than thou" comments. Once you sink into the mud, you no longer have the high road. Anyway, the only objective comparable stat in the report you linked seems to be the racial crime rate and even that's compared apples-to-oranges on a per-country basis. Keeping track of crimes by country and population, and finding US equivalent stats doesn't seem straightforward. If anything, it's suspicious that some of the numbers, such as proportion of racial crimes to all crimes, aren't listed for reference.

I have no clue on non-WASP US numbers. It's not hard to find out the number of minorities but ethnic background and religion are rarely mentioned here. If you have a specific European country of model racial integration, I don't mind trying to locate and compare minority numbers for 1 institution. I believe the US will come out on top in terms of minority representation at all levels and can try to prove it. I just mentioned Congress because it's a lot easier to find the number of minorities in any given European legislative body. For example, in a few minutes I found:

US Congress has 80 minorities out of 536 total (14.9%): http://www.congress.org/congressorg/dir ... tid=ethnic
British Parliament has 70 minorities of 1476 total (4.7%): http://www.parliament.uk/briefing-papers/SN01156.pdf
French Parliament has 10 minorities of 577 total (1.7%): http://za.news.yahoo.com/photos/hardly- ... 44157.html
German Bundestag has <2% of minorities: http://www.spiegel.de/international/ger ... 46733.html
European Parliament has 9 minorities of 785 total (1.1%): http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2007/feb/14/race.eu

It is arguable how much legislative representation matters but the laws minority members write and the votes they cast are very real and hold as much weight as those from their white counterparts. There's no magical behind-the-scenes all-white committee that can override their votes. Does legislative racial equality mean much for a country's level of racism? Perhaps, perhaps not. Do racial crimes mean much for a country's level of racism? Perhaps, perhaps not. As I said, stats don't always translate cleanly into conclusions. I don't pretend to know the situation in Europe and am sort of shocked you felt so strongly to claim that Europe was more racially balanced than the US without easy-to-see evidence on hand to back your argument up.

My point about Bush 43 was entirely unrelated. There, many high level educational institutions have lower standards for URM entrance in the name of diversity. However, that's complete hypocrisy when they go right around and select WASPs—including unqualified ones with more family ties and donations such as W—to fill in the majority of their class. If diversity really is important to institutions, then the class should be completely diverse. And if diversity isn't that important, then URMs shouldn't have an unfair advantage. Selectively applying diversity whenever it suits their needs is no different than outright discrimination. The University of California system has set up an admirable race-blind system that rewards admissions based solely on merit. Hopefully, this trend will continue and eliminate one of the last vestiges of affirmative action.

[Randorama]

Come on now, the pot calling the kettle black? You're the one who nagged me on the most minor guess of my 2nd to last post—a point I clearly only included to remind everyone that my views applied only to the US—and treated it as a big deal that had to be settled. If I consider something meaningless, then I won't even read about it. If the topic of racism has little meaning to you, then it behooves you to act that way.

If you want to continue, then please cut out the "better than thou" comments. Once you sink into the mud, you no longer have the high road.

"Racism" is an empty concept, but the rest of the points you (Ganelon) make do not necessarily hinge on this concept. You'd be much more precise without using it. What is this pots and kettles thing? I really don't get this attittude. Anyway, See also below:

Anyway, the only objective comparable stat in the report you linked seems to be the racial crime rate and even that's compared apples-to-oranges on a per-country basis. Keeping track of crimes by country and population, and finding US equivalent stats doesn't seem straightforward. If anything, it's suspicious that some of the numbers, such as proportion of racial crimes to all crimes, aren't listed for reference.

Other commissions have other related numbers. The Weizmann institute in Bonn usually collects and studies these topics, among others. I am not sure on whether them or the institute that measures the quality of life conditions (Index of Life) publish a yearly review on the general topic integration.

I have no clue on non-WASP US numbers. It's not hard to find out the number of minorities...

It is arguable how much legislative representation matters but the laws minority members write and the votes they cast are very real and hold as much weight as those from their white counterparts. There's no magical behind-the-scenes all-white committee that can override their votes.

Yes, but other powers in the US decide policies as well, and they are mostly controlled by WASPs:

My point about Bush 43 was entirely unrelated (no, it was related, N.D.R.). There, many high level educational institutions have lower standards for URM entrance in the name of diversity. However, that's complete hypocrisy when they go right around and select WASPs—including unqualified ones with more family ties and donations such as W—to fill in the majority of their class. If diversity really is important to institutions, then the class should be completely diverse. .

Besides, are you serious on the whole "US wins racial battle" thing? Do you really think this is a competition?

Does legislative racial equality mean much for a country's level of racism? Perhaps, perhaps not. Do racial crimes mean much for a country's level of racism? Perhaps, perhaps not. As I said, stats don't always translate cleanly into conclusions. I don't pretend to know the situation in Europe and am sort of shocked you felt so strongly to claim that Europe was more racially balanced than the US without easy-to-see evidence on hand to back your argument up.

Your evidence is the gossip of your chinese friends and numbers on institutions that do not hold the full balance of power in your country. I am sorry, but it's a bit shaky evidence, like mine, no? I think that Vyxx posted on this forum statistics that show how afro-americans stand a chance to go to jail just because they're black. We could compare that statistics to EU ones, if we would like to tackle the discourse seriously.

Overall I doubt that these factors, prove the superiority of Eagleland on discrimation matters. Besides, I mentioned certain specific countries in EU, not all 27 (you really need to keep this in mind, sorry), and well, Canada, which happens to be North of you guys. In those countries the situation is overall better, but this does not mean that it is good, which is something I did not mention in my previous post (my mistake).

The bottom line is that US/UK/Anglo countries can't wear the mantle of good and just and non-discriminating, as they citizens desperately try to believe, brainwashed by the PC non-sense.

And, if one discrimation act on any city in any country is a statisticially significant litmus test for discrimination, then nobody's safe from this problem. My hunch is that discrimination does not represent a huge problem in egalitarian-like societies. And living in a tall poppy country is not that much fun, to add a tangent without relevance on this topic.

But feel free to be shocked as much as you want, though, of that I don't really care less.

[xbl0x180]

The University of California system has set up an admirable race-blind system that rewards admissions based solely on merit. Hopefully, this trend will continue and eliminate one of the last vestiges of affirmative action.

Bwah When I attended UC San Diego, I got a lot of s*** from whites and Asians about getting into the university because I was latino (as opposed to merit)

[Ganelon]

"Racism" is an empty concept, but the rest of the points you (Ganelon) make do not necessarily hinge on this concept. You'd be much more precise without using it. What is this pots and kettles thing? I really don't get this attittude.

As far as I'm aware, I've been speaking only of racism based on skin color. I don't like to combine class, wealth, and immigration issues with race issues because although they're in some ways connected, I don't find them as intertwined as many feel they are.

The only point you objected to from my original post was that I considered most other places in the world more racist than the US. If we don't agree on the terms, then there's a communication issue. If we do agree on the terms, then it doesn't make sense for you to have opposing stands on racism brought up at the same time—one objecting to others' views on racism and one not recognizing the concept altogether.

That's where my reference to the "pot calling the kettle black" idiom comes from. For example, if we were talking about shmups instead of racism, then it doesn't make any sense for you to get involved in a discussion about shmups and then wonder why people are still talking about shmups. Forgive me if that's not what you're saying but that's how your comments came off as I read it.

Other commissions have other related numbers. The Weizmann institute in Bonn usually collects and studies these topics, among others. I am not sure on whether them or the institute that measures the quality of life conditions (Index of Life) publish a yearly review on the general topic integration.

Do these commissions have comparable apples-to-apples stats on race and between the US? I'm not familiar with how they're calculated. For example, quality of life by itself doesn't necessarily have a direct connection to racism. Less well-to-do people here in the US are probably faring poorly in pre-Obamacare and that really has no direct relation to racism.

Besides, are you serious on the whole "US wins racial battle" thing? Do you really think this is a competition?

As a proponent of firsthand evidence but without having lived in Europe, I admitted I didn't have a good idea. When you pressed about how my impression was conceived, I told you that it formed based on anecdotes from friends. Note the term "impression" here (I originally used the word "imagine" but consider it interchangeable in this case); I didn't "claim" or "state" that my view was correct. Instead of writing "I have little clue what happens in other countries although I imagine that racism is worse in most other places," I would've written "I know that racism is worse anywhere outside the US." I think the latter type of comment demands much more solid evidence than the former. Since I knew I didn't have very scientific evidence, I specifically didn't phrase my opinion in that manner.

That's when you mentioned statistics that supposedly proved otherwise. I thought it strange that you continued to feel so strongly about my mere impression. From my end, it sounded like you were trying to make this issue a competition. I didn't mind tagging along and expanding my world view by looking through some of your evidence. I wasn't under the impression that any of the countries you mentioned had more racial tolerance than the US, but I didn't have hard facts to confirm or deny it.

That's when I thought up of another race-related metric that could be easily found: proportion of minority legislative members. There's another metric, number of minority heads of state, and we all know who has the only entry here but there probably aren't enough data points there to make it a worthwhile measurement. If you have another measurement that can be easily found, then please share away. Proportion of minority inmates you say? That's certainly another manner of measuring racism. But once again, does that really imply anything about a country's overall level of racism, your original point of contention? Perhaps, perhaps not.

It's also possible we have a serious communication discord here. It doesn't seem like English is your first language and I don't know any other European languages. If the nuances I'm writing or the philosophy you're writing are missing their marks, then that would explain a lot of the repeated explanations I find myself typing.

Bwah When I attended UC San Diego, I got a lot of s*** from whites and Asians about getting into the university because I was latino (as opposed to merit)

Ha, well, assuming it hasn't been decades since you graduated, there's surely no lack of ignorance around the world across all races.

[Randorama]

As far as I'm aware, I've been speaking only of racism based on skin color. I don't like to combine class, wealth, and immigration issues with race issues because although they're in some ways connected, I don't find them as intertwined as many feel they are.

The only point you objected to from my original post was that I considered most other places in the world more racist than the US. If we don't agree on the terms, then there's a communication issue. If we do agree on the terms, then it doesn't make sense for you to have opposing stands on racism brought up at the same time—one objecting to others' views on racism and one not recognizing the concept altogether.

That's where my reference to the "pot calling the kettle black" idiom comes from. For example, if we were talking about shmups instead of racism, then it doesn't make any sense for you to get involved in a discussion about shmups and then wonder why people are still talking about shmups. Forgive me if that's not what you're saying but that's how your comments came off as I read it.

I think that we went well beyond the whole issue of skin color being the only crucial source of discrimination I while ago, hence my comment on why bothering about racism.

Do these commissions have comparable apples-to-apples stats on race and between the US? I'm not familiar with how they're calculated. For example, quality of life by itself doesn't necessarily have a direct connection to racism. Less well-to-do people here in the US are probably faring poorly in pre-Obamacare and that really has no direct relation to racism.

No, one can compare the numbers by himself, but the Ginori people usually release an "index of inequality" chart every year. I need to check.

As a proponent of firsthand evidence but without having lived in Europe, I admitted I didn't have a good idea. When you pressed about how my impression was conceived, I told you that it formed based on anecdotes from friends. Note the term "impression" here (I originally used the word "imagine" but consider it interchangeable in this case); I didn't "claim" or "state" that my view was correct. Instead of writing "I have little clue what happens in other countries although I imagine that racism is worse in most other places," I would've written "I know that racism is worse anywhere outside the US." I think the latter type of comment demands much more solid evidence than the former. Since I knew I didn't have very scientific evidence, I specifically didn't phrase my opinion in that manner.

My main point is that any claim about US faring better than any other country on discriminatory issues is not likely to be true, and at the same time there is a good deal of jingoism that goes with this pre-conceived notion. This notion goes often hand in hand with the idea that EU countries do not even address discriminatory issues, which is quite a bad stereotype from certain US enviroments, usually with the aim to divert attention from their own discriminating acts.

That's when I thought up of another race-related metric that could be easily found: proportion of minority legislative members.

Usually these metrics are extremely complex, and include anything from access to education and healthcare, to median salary. We can sit down and pretend that one factor is THE key factor, and only end up sounding like jackasses in the long term. One thing is that the countries I mentioned have quite generous welfare systems that prevent immigrants and immigrant children from not having access to a better future (...more or less), whereas the US system would make this access *harder* for their own citizens, too.

It's also possible we have a serious communication discord here. It doesn't seem like English is your first language and I don't know any other European languages. If the nuances I'm writing or the philosophy you're writing are missing their marks, then that would explain a lot of the repeated explanations I find myself typing.

Language is not much a point, but rather Language use. I do find detestable a certain Anglophonic (and especially US) pattern of identifying different Language uses, and uses of specific terms (say, 'racism'), with lack of native-like Language Proficiency, which is what you seem to be involuntarily implying. I could lecture on this, and I already do it for my employers (su.se), but I would end up sounding just like a snout with a Dr. attached to his name (and yes, I speak fluently 5 Languages, know 9 or so). Or: there are tons of natives who can't understand words such as "juxtaposition", but it doesn't make them any less native speakers.

[neorichieb1971]

The US is very racist. Its just done in a stealth manner. I remember in 2006 when I were there living in St Louis I heard all manner of things going on.

2 Police officers apparently shot at a truck cabin 88 times without return fire. Apparently because the people in it were black.

Oprah Winfrey ran a show where they compared 2 missing child cases. One was black, which the media totally ignored and gave zero press coverage to finding her. Against a blonde blue eyed little girl who got all sorts of media coverage spanning days/weeks/months with no expense spared.

Racism comes in many shapes and forms.


I was in London yesterday getting passports sorted at the Filipino embassy. Lovely people. When I were on the tube train all the races mixed perfectly well. What I saw was what is normally expected. Approx 60% white vs 40% of everything else.

[Ganelon]

Randorama: OK, we'll reconvene if/when you find those stats then. I'm always open to having a more accurate and diverse view of the world.

Regarding language, my implication wasn't with regards to your vocabulary or word usage—which seem solid enough—but rather your peculiar sentence structuring and the fact that we seem to be repeating points. Since I'm not sure I understood you correctly here either, I won't mention anything further.

[xbl0x180]

This should be interesting to follow:

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/07/13/busin ... agers.html

[neorichieb1971]

This should be interesting to follow:

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/07/13/busin ... agers.html

They should have just promoted or moved the African American to another position if a blue eyed blonde hair person was what they wanted.

Very badly handled.

[GaijinPunch]

Wet Pussy >>> Wet Seal

Need I say more?

[dcharlie]

The US is very racist. Its just done in a stealth manner.

there's a weird split in the UK

in the North , racists seem to just out and out blurt out whatever they thing - no innuendo, no stealth. It's pretty shocking to see.

In the South? i dunno - racists seem to hide behind cowardice and innuendo. Not that there's much difference, a scum bag racist is a scumbag racist regardless of method of expression. Just i've found Southern racists to be complete shit bags who haven't even got the balls to stand behind their horribly repugnant views.

[Hagane]

Racism is a stupid concept made to tame the ignorant. Power is all that matters.

People everywhere believe in this concept. From the redneck that believes he's superior than the latinos, Asian and blacks while the white people he votes for shits on him, to the oppressed minorities that will find someone less powerful than them so they can also feel they are superior to someone else.

In my country, the white look down on native Americans and their mixed blood variants, the mestizos look down on Peruvian, Bolivian and Paraguayan immigrants, and each of those immigrant classes looks down on each other. All the while only 0.5% of the populace really matters and fucks every one of those groups in the ass, but they are all too busy looking down on each other to notice!