Are some western shmup players lazy when it comes to shmups?

[PaCrappa]

Why does it freak some people out when someone is REALLY damned good at something they also enjoy on some level? Why are you disgusted, instead of inspired? Why do you lash out with personal attacks instead of wanting details about how they got so good?

I can beat Darius Gaiden in one life. I can finish most Gradius games without breaking a sweat. I'm not freaked out by people who are good at shmups.

You know what does irritate the living hell out of me, though? People who think they're superior because they're good at shmups. Or can kick anyone's ass in Counter-Strike. Or can complete Resident Evil 2 in under and hour and a half.

If someone devotes their life to a musical instrument, there's a good chance they could make a career out of it. That practice will pay off. It's not just wasted time. Someone who's really good at a shooter can do fuck all with this skill they've built. If they have fun doing it, then great! Have fun doing it. I know I have. But I don't try to convince myself that it's somehow bettering me. It isn't. It's 100% pure entertainment. Outside of the sense of satisfaction I get when I beat my old high score, I've gained absolutely nothing that improves me or sets me up for better things.

This topic asked if westerners are "lazy" when it comes to shmups. THIS is what is annoying. It implies that shmups are more important than they actually are, and then condescends anyone who doesn't share the level of love that people here have for the genre. It's the difference between someone who really loves Star Trek (reasonable), and someone who mocks you for not bothering to learn Klingon (not reasonable). When your love of, and dedication to, your choice of entertainment gets to the point where you condescend anyone who isn't as devoted as yourself, you need to step back and get some perspective on things. There's nothing wrong with being hardcore into something, as long as you're aware that there's also nothing wrong with not being hardcore into it as well.

Thank you sethsez. That was perfect. The thread should've ended there.

Pa

[Randorama]

Another group even smaller is the one of "the posers", who talk a lot about how hardcore they are and don't post scores.

I rarely disagree with you, Rando, but...I've put hundreds of hours into a few specific non-shmup arcade games...and playing for score/1lc in those made them more enjoyable, I don't see why shmups would be any different, especially with experiences with them where I've made serious improvements...I've come close to a few 1cc's, gotten a few with weaksauce scores, but real life keeps interrupting me (times when I can't play AT ALL, people need to stop posting trollish 'LOL u have 2 much free tiem' remarks)....maybe other 'posers' are in the same boat?

Anyways, I guess playing for score is more an opinion than factually right or wrong...I still think people should try it before dissing it, thoe.

Well, it has something to do with things like "omg i'm so hardcore etc etc", from some persons that, well, don't post big scores at all. Yeah, real life sucks (time, too), but at least, let's not brag about being hardcore because of worshipping the "almighty japanese players": worshipping them won't make anyone a better player, obviously. Also, the whole lazy issue fits well someone who says "omg why i'm not miracolously able to be the world champion at everything at the first try?", not the ones who actually play, learn, get results, or at least try. Geographical provenience doesn't really matter, i'd add.

[PaCrappa]

You have your own mind to work out new ideas and strategies from replays, but that's probably too much work for you.

What western player ever worked anything out on his own since the internet was invented? Every single one of the holier than thou, "I play for score you lazy bum" type pencilnecks I've ever witnessed (and you're not the first I've seen on the net or in real life) admittedly copies the same replay videos that some kind Japanese fellow was gracious enough post on the net. Talk about "mindless, repetitive, mind dulling experiences." When you copy someone else, have you really learned a scoring system?

What ideas and strategies have you worked out Super Glob? Bless us with the fruits of your tireless Japaneselike labor.

Also, for the record, are you from Japan? If not, have you visited Japan?

Pa

[TWITCHDOCTOR]

You have your own mind to work out new ideas and strategies from replays, but that's probably too much work for you.

What western player ever worked anything out on his own since the internet was invented? Every single one of the holier than thou, "I play for score you lazy bum" type pencilnecks I've ever witnessed (and you're not the first I've seen on the net or in real life) admittedly copies the same replay videos that some kind Japanese fellow was gracious enough post on the net. Talk about "mindless, repetitive, mind dulling experiences." When you copy someone else, have you really learned a scoring system?

What ideas and strategies have you worked out Super Glob? Bless us with the fruits of your tireless Japaneselike labor.

Also, for the record, are you from Japan? If not, have you visited Japan?

Pa

Thats exactly the way I feel about "Replay Videos". I prefer not to watch them, because I get a sense of "accomplishment" from learning the game on my own. Maybe my scores won't be as high as someone elses, but I know that "I" at least "earned" it.
Then again, I'd rather simply get a 1CC than a high score. Getting both at the same time would be nice though.

I'll also add that sometimes I feel like I'm a good player, and sometimes I feel like a little bitch when I hear how somebody beat Radiant SilverGun with one life.
I've also said before that certain games, only certain people will "click" with and be able to complete, while games will continue to "own" you.
Yes, the Twitch has been owned by many a Shmups...not too many though.

[BulletMagnet]

Almost 2000 posts later and BulletMagnet still can't live down the "commandments" topic.

Me? If you recall, I'm not the one who brought it back up here...believe me, no one here is more eager to put it and past topics like it to rest than I am.

There's one small group that i would label as "the fanboys"which spends time raving about new releases and graphics. Another group even smaller is the one of "the posers", who talk a lot about how hardcore they are and don't post scores. I don't like both, frankly.

I don't deny that people like that do exist here, but I think if you step back and look at the "big picture" of this site, the vast majority of this place's members aren't like that. As such, I don't think that there's much need for the impression sometimes given that this place is somehow the bubbling, festering swamp of the lowest, most mindless life-forms in the shmupping community. In my view it's generally a good place, though obviously not perfect...then again, who's ever expected it to be?

Watching instead of doing. When you do something, in arts, you're using your brain.Else, cerebral activity is very low.This is true of most actions, arts have slightly lower values.

Well, I'm definitely one of those people who firmly believes that society at large should participate much more actively in the arts, if that means anything...but even if it's not the same kind of activity as actively creating stuff, "watching" art with the right kind of attitude or goal in mind can certainly make you think...heck, there's the whole field of art criticism to consider, and while some observations obviously hold more water than others, you can't make a career out of that without using your brain quite a bit. And even if you don't write books about it, you can still expand your horizons a bit by wrapping your mind around someone else's work...after all, the reason that much of art is created is for it to impart some kind of message to the viewer (or listener, or whatever); if people really are "turning of their brains" when experiencing art, they're not doing it as it's meant to be done.

Literature or, reading a novel (or any other stories,in short: stuff that doesn't imply new knowledge) is following a a pretty abused path, so to speak.It's like watching tv, in this regard: no external stimuli except for the visual ones (but you're processing words instead of images, different hemisphere to be numbed down).

What exactly is "new knowledge," in your view? And what additional information are you processing when gaming, as opposed to TV watching? You still look and listen to the images and the music, only this time your thumbs (and occasionally your mouth, when an unfair death comes along ) react along with the rest...there's also the matter that certain shows, books, etc. will require much more attention from the viewer/reader/whatever to get anything out of (if there's anything to be gotten) than others, same as games. Lumping trashy supermarket romances in with enduring classics, in terms of what the reader gets out of them, is like regarding a deep strategy game and a hentai dating sim as the same thing, perhaps even more ridiculous than that.

Your cognitive system at some point literally go in standby mode, so to speak. If someone would pay me do that, i would make experiments about playing the same stage over and over again.

Isn't "playing the same stage over and over again" the essence of practicing and perfecting a shmup? You adjust your strategy along the way, and so on and so forth, but it's still largely the same stuff...why can't the same be said about re-reading a novel, and noticing things you missed the first time through? Or, even if you only read the novel once through, carefully, taking a long time to finish, and then put it away, what kind of numbing repetition is present, aside from the fact that there are only so many letters in a given alphabet to print?

Graduate student in Linguistics (specialization in semantics) and master in cognitive sciences.

You know, after all this time this does explain a lot, heh heh.

...i'm pretty reserved in this kind of things.

...though I'm somewhat inclined to raise an eyebrow to that.

Beside that, it's not the word itself, it's the reasoning that is disturbing: i argued more than once why, but in short, instead of preaching moral standards about things, why don't you just live and let live (especially when propaganda can't influence statesof thing)? Or: why don't you just accept rank? After all, it's all over, the current trend now is dynamic enemy sequence...

That's just the thing, I wasn't "preaching moral standards" (do shmups even have "morals?")...just stating a set of opinions with a fancy title on top, heh. Heck, I concluded my first post on this very topic with the statement "Play and let play," so I'm definitely an outspoken advocate of that. And again, if I'd know that the word I used back then would have bothered you so much, I wouldn't have used it. As for rank, as stated before, my opinion of it has changed over time...I'm still not rabid about some of the systems used, but you probably recall that I did buy myself a copy of Garegga some time back, if that means anything.

[sethsez]

Me? If you recall, I'm not the one who brought it back up here...believe me, no one here is more eager to put it and past topics like it to rest than I am.

I think you misunderstand the meaning of "can't live down." It means other people won't drop it.

[cigsthecat]

You have your own mind to work out new ideas and strategies from replays, but that's probably too much work for you.

What western player ever worked anything out on his own since the internet was invented? Every single one of the holier than thou, "I play for score you lazy bum" type pencilnecks I've ever witnessed (and you're not the first I've seen on the net or in real life) admittedly copies the same replay videos that some kind Japanese fellow was gracious enough post on the net. Talk about "mindless, repetitive, mind dulling experiences." When you copy someone else, have you really learned a scoring system?

The vast majority of the time I played Batrider I did it on my own. I reached the final boss of Advance Course many times and learned the game sans video. My score and the way I play the game is mine.

At some point I finally got to see a video (the only one I've ever seen/found)- it wasn't that big a deal because I was already capable of doing most of that. No new information. I watch videos because they are often the only way to discover things about a scoring system that are only explained in Japanese or not at all. I've cleared the game now, but not because of a video. Because I practiced, and enjoyed the hell out of it.

The top Batrider score is 20+ million- mine is 8.5 or so. I'd like to be able to find out what the hell is going on.

PS- Mowing a goddamn lawn isn't the only thing that qualifies as hard work.

[Valgar]

I don't know what Super Glob's goal was in making this thread. Instead of posting this he should be posting his l33t scores. If people want to just play for fun or blowing stuff up that is fine. The only thing that bothers me is when I see "Omg I suck I can't do that".

It is very simple and I hate to see when players like myself are crticized for "copying" replays.

I watch IMAKICHI play Ketsui and in all honestly he is the only "friend" I have who plays the fucking game. I can't go into this forum and ask how to play. Just LOOK at fucking Progear, few people know SHIT about that game. And IMAKICHI's replay can only give me ONE answer. I used his replay for a guideline, and then build/refine my game above/around that.

When I am watching a replay I am constantly asking the question "What is this guy doing that I am not? or "Why is he doing this"? Simply scratching my behind and going "durrrr, ship moves left, push button" isn't going to give me the tools I need to improve.

All this is because I want to have one of the best scores, and even if the benefits don't make me money it is still a benefit to me in some stupid way. I still "earned" my score and to me it is really fun.

[Icarus]

You have your own mind to work out new ideas and strategies from replays, but that's probably too much work for you.

What western player ever worked anything out on his own since the internet was invented? Every single one of the holier than thou, "I play for score you lazy bum" type pencilnecks I've ever witnessed (and you're not the first I've seen on the net or in real life) admittedly copies the same replay videos that some kind Japanese fellow was gracious enough post on the net. Talk about "mindless, repetitive, mind dulling experiences." When you copy someone else, have you really learned a scoring system?

1. Are you saying that ALL western players are incapable of experimenting, discovering and theorising tactics and strategies on their own? Because that's a huge generalisation, and a very wrong one at that.
2. Are you saying that anyone can watch a replay video and miraculously become a shooter god? Show me a player that can do such a feat, and I'll show you a theory I have that it actually takes skill to be able to play well, and not the ability to perfectly copy a replay that may or may not have the most optimal route in the game.
3. How many non-Japanese sites and resources do you know of (besides the limited info in the ST and high scores forums, and GameFAQs) that contain detailed information on systems and strategies?
4. How many players do you know of that are willing to share their knowledge to others to help others play better? There are at best maybe 10 intermediate-to-highlevel players actively posting strats and writing guides in the Strategy forum. The rest tend to keep their traps shut.
5. How many players do you know of complain about a given system in a game after playing it for about five minutes, instead of attempting to understand said system, either through experimentation, or from requesting information? Loads, I'll bet.

FTR, I watch replays for entertainment, and maybe to learn something new about a game I like. I watch my own replays to spot mistakes, to figure out new tricks, to observe changes in systems that I wouldn't have noticed during play, and to keep my own strategies fresh in my own mind. I watch replays made by others to enjoy the skill on display.

And lets face it, some of us have to learn stuff in our own way. It's not like there are many players here - yourself included - who are willing to help others.

[Randorama]

Stuff

Sorry, i will write a brief reply while i'll be free, one thing: as said, the group is small, i did look at the bigger picture.

For the rest, administration offices should be nuked, for great justice

[LoneSage]

In Japan there are people playing the same game for many years, and it’s not always linked to competition (VTF Ika double play vids come to mind.).

well you know, I guess if you think I'm lazy for not wanting to do that, you probably don't want to know what I think of the Japanese guy who actually does that.

'obsessive' is too modest a word in that case.

[Marc]

Super Glob wrote:
In Japan there are people playing the same game for many years, and it’s not always linked to competition (VTF Ika double play vids come to mind.).

I guess it all comes down to whether or not you find stuff like that impressive or not. IMO, there's finishing a game with an impressive score, and then there's mastering a game to an utterly pointless standard. Yeah, I can see the women just lining up to watch this guy complete Iky with two pads. Myself, if I'm gonna put that much practise into a past time, it's more likely to be playing guitar than playing Ikaruga.

[Davey]

Myself, if I'm gonna put that much practise into a past time, it's more likely to be playing guitar than playing Ikaruga.

Just to play devil's advocate, though, you could argue that playing guitar (or any other hobby for that matter) is just as pointless as getting freakishly good at a video game. If I spent all my free time playing Ikaruga, I would be weird and obsessive, but if I spent all my free time playing guitar, I would be devoted?

[Super Glob]

...utterly pointless standard.

This isn't true, unless you think you know the meaning of life.
Nothing is pointless, or everything is pointless.

[sethsez]

...utterly pointless standard.

This isn't true, unless you think you know the meaning of life.
Nothing is pointless, or everything is pointless.

I'm going to go out on a limb and say that your reply is pointless. It leaves absolutely no room for discussion or differing viewpoints. If you believe that nobody can make a value judgement about something without knowing the meaning of life, why did you bother starting a thread about it?

The contortions some people are going through here baffles me. If you like your hobby, fine, but why do you feel the need to make it more than it is? Who do you think you're impressing when you start getting into philosophy and basic human urges in an attempt to validate spending a good chunk of your life killing the Bydo? Do some of you really think that picking at semantics is going to suddenly convince everyone that getting good enough to play two-player Ikaruga by yourself is a worthwhile application of time and effort, especially for someone who doesn't care about the game that much?

It's entertainment. It's a way to pass the time. It's nothing more than that. Enjoy it for what it is.

[Randorama]

[

The contortions some people are going through here baffles me. If you like your hobby, fine, but why do you feel the need to make it more than it is? Who do you think you're impressing when you start getting into philosophy and basic human urges in an attempt to validate spending a good chunk of your life killing the Bydo? Do some of you really think that picking at semantics is going to suddenly convince everyone that getting good enough to play two-player Ikaruga by yourself is a worthwhile application of time and effort, especially for someone who doesn't care about the game that much?

It's entertainment. It's a way to pass the time. It's nothing more than that. Enjoy it for what it is.

Why make it less? Why any rational explanations of why you like things is to impress people? Should "semantics" convince stubborn people? After all this discussion, you still mock what you do because it's not work? Amazing,

[Valgar]

In Japan there are people playing the same game for many years, and it’s not always linked to competition (VTF Ika double play vids come to mind.).

well you know, I guess if you think I'm lazy for not wanting to do that, you probably don't want to know what I think of the Japanese guy who actually does that.

'obsessive' is too modest a word in that case.

The only difference between that guy and anyone else here who plays games is that he only plays 1 or 2.

[sethsez]

I don't mock my hobby, but I also don't elevate it to ludicrously inflated levels of importance. It's like you're trying to justify the nutritional value of ice cream because there's some trace vitamins in it. Just admit you're eating the ice cream because it tastes good rather than becasue it's good for you and move on. There's nothing wrong with that.

[landshark]

Sir - Being stuck at roughly 70% of WRs seems to be the norm. For instance, Mill's Strikers 1945 and Raiden DX records are at roughly 70%

That just scares me.

[Randorama]

I don't mock my hobby, but I also don't elevate it to ludicrously inflated levels of importance. It's like you're trying to justify the nutritional value of ice cream because there's some trace vitamins in it. Just admit you're eating the ice cream because it tastes good rather than becasue it's good for you and move on. There's nothing wrong with that.

Except that your analogy is pretty poor (like all analogies) and the discourse (mine a least) isn't about inflating things. Things work in a given way, explaining scientifically how they work in a given way doesn't mean that you elevate to some status of superior importance. If instead of social status you analyze mental activity...etc etc etc.In short, yes, games do involve a minimum treshold of intellectual activity which is higher than other much more respected activities. If anything but saying " you live, you die, everything is what it is" is a mental contortion, i can only laugh at your nichilism, honestly. It seems like you have mental seizures if something's not appaling linear and simple. But well, "It is me or modern shmups are too complex? Shouldn't we live in the golden age, in the paradise lost where we didn't think at all?"

...Do you love Big Brother, by chance?

[MovingTarget]

To be the best at anything is never going to be easy, it requires hard work and I admire anyone who has the dedication and determination to pull it off. If you think its sad devoting years to a single game, well, its not half as bad as watching eastenders...

[sethsez]

In short, yes, games do involve a minimum treshold of intellectual activity which is higher than other much more respected activities.

What the hell are you basing this repeated claim on beyond "I thought really hard about it"?

If anything but saying " you live, you die, everything is what it is" is a mental contortion, i can only laugh at your nichilism, honestly. It seems like you have mental seizures if something's not appaling linear and simple. But well, "It is me or modern shmups are too complex? Shouldn't we live in the golden age, in the paradise lost where we didn't think at all?"

You're rambling. Again. Though I'd like it if you'd point out where I or anyone else said "intelligent games are bad" or "I don't like thinking when I play games." Once again, it's a claim you keep making, and it's one you keep failing to back up. Nobody has said "games should be made easier because I just don't understand them" so stop bringing it up as a point.

...Do you love Big Brother, by chance?

Okay, so in this thread you've brought up Big Brother, religion, WASPs, nihilism, and... let's see, am I forgetting anything?

For someone who regularly promotes clear, rational, scientific thinking in this thread, you've been making nothing but ridiculous leaps of logic. I don't think spending hours playing Ikaruga is particularly productive so I love Big Brother? I don't think creating a strategy in a shmup is as intellectually stimulating as creating a song so I must be a WASP? I mean, at least I attempted to tie my analogies into the discussion. You're just throwing up as many strawmen as you can to see what sticks, and none of them make any goddamn sense outside of some ridiculous vaguely counter-culture teenage bullshit. "You think shmups are nothing but entertainment? How does it feel to kiss the ass of THE MAN?!"

To be the best at anything is never going to be easy, it requires hard work and I admire anyone who has the dedication and determination to pull it off. If you think its sad devoting years to a single game, well, its not half as bad as watching eastenders...

Hey, as long as it doesn't interfere with their normal lives, people who spend years getting good at a single game can do what they want. Frankly it makes the genre more interesting for the rest of us. It's only when they start looking down on everybody else that I have a problem.

[Randorama]

In short, yes, games do involve a minimum treshold of intellectual activity which is higher than other much more respected activities.

What the hell are you basing this repeated claim on beyond "I thought really hard about it"?

A number of publications, for instance.Do you pretend that my argument is faulty because i don't have their references right now and i should have saved for this discussion?If i explain to a kid gravity, is my explanation faulty because i can't tell him which was my physics handbook of high-school? This is a bit absurd, honestly, do i even have to tell you why?

I
You're rambling. Again. Though I'd like it if you'd point out where I or anyone else said "intelligent games are bad" or "I don't like thinking when I play games."

You're making the wrong infeences. As always. You can re-read any of the posts in this thread in which "omg it's just a game i prefer more serious activities (ah, wait, you're stubbornly endorsing that there aren't intelligent games, so how can they be bad or good?), or any of the "omg i don't want to use my neurons when playing!", for instance. Then, you'd skip them, no?

Once again, it's a claim you keep making, and it's one you keep failing to back up. Nobody has said "games should be made easier because I just don't understand them" so stop bringing it up as a point.

Aside that giving orders is an example of poor manners, My back ups are in the posts you keep skipping. It is not surprising, as you invented that i made a number of comments like, say, games are superior to x, which is how YOU think i'm reasoning. In terms of TOM (Theory Of Mind, do you need the reference?), this is pretty obvious. So far, you're endorsing a strictly hoilgofrenic approach: oversimplifications (and wrong inferences) are the norm. "Bah, games are just games!".

Yeah, we knew of identity principle, but if any detailed explanation of a phenomenon must be ruled out because it is beyond the apparent scope of this identity principle, there's simply no room for any kind of discussion.Everything would be reduced to a number of basic identities and there would be no way of relating basic elements to other basic elements. As you have already shown, you fall in a basic form of "ontological relativism" (which is the technical name...), which doesn't leave room for any kind of disccussion, or proofs. Since, however, you make claim abou my logical leaps, let me explain one thing:

I don't think creating a strategy in a shmup is as intellectually stimulating as creating a song so I must be a WASP?

No, the complete argument is:

" if branding activities in A hierarchy of social relevance AND THE activities which are NOT to be labelled as "WORK" (it is paid AND allows A person to discover if A person going to paradise or not) are automatically labelled as "silly", THEN you display AN occurence of AN aspect of THE WASP attitude". (note: the capitalized parts are, so to speak, the relevant operators and functors). Now, i would add: you can replace WASP with just protestant (as the latter is a smaller set and the properly relevant one, according to my ravings), it's better i think.

I could give you a proper detailed derivation, but what for? Do you understand such formalizations? More importantly, would you try to understand instead of labelling them as "intellectual rants about the universe"? There's a difference between explanation and oversimplification, something that, so far, you're willing to ignore because of your intellectual lazyness. The illuminating point is this one, however:

Frankly it makes the genre more interesting for the rest of us. It's only when they start looking down on everybody else that I have a problem.

I happen to agree, but you're invited to tell me: is any kind of non-dismissive attitude "looking down upon?". I don't think so, and i actually wrote my joke upon this form of "double thought" , based on the idea that anything which is not a oversimplification, must be a sterile intellectual exercise ( i won't repeat your definitions, i'm beginning to find them somewhat of redneck-like: and well, frankly, i've read/heard this comment more oftenly when talking with anglophonic people than non-anglophonics.Prejudiced?Perhaps). I'd add that it's also a pretty binary way of thinking, no? In short, i'd avoid to make hierarchies at any cost. Even worse, i'd avoid to attribute the making of hierachies to other people. But i doubt that you're even remotely willing to drop your relativism.


Beside that, though, i'd suggest you to avoid analogies, they're 99% of the time unproper (i.e. they work syntactically but not semantically).

[TWITCHDOCTOR]

*reads above post at least twice*...

Hey Rando, do you have any problems walking through doorways?

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.because if your head gets any bigger, you won't be able to!

Seriously, who are you trying to impress with your "intellectual-ness"?
I can't even tell what the thread is about anymore with all of this "stuff" you keep bringing up in every thread/post.

Lighten up man...your heads about to explode, don't you know?

[Randorama]

*reads above post at least twice*...

Hey Rando, do you have any problems walking through doorways?

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.because if your head gets any bigger, you won't be able to!

Seriously, who are you trying to impress with your "intellectual-ness"?
I can't even tell what the thread is about anymore with all of this "stuff" you keep bringing up in every thread/post.

Lighten up man...your heads about to explode, don't you know?

Well, my argument

"( i won't repeat your definitions, i'm beginning to find them somewhat of redneck-like: and well, frankly, i've read/heard this comment more oftenly when talking with anglophonic people than non-anglophonics.Prejudiced?Perhaps). " seems to be confirmed in this case. *Sigh*

[TWITCHDOCTOR]

Thats pretty funny. I didn't know that "brains" could make funny jokes. Well, ones that normal people could percieve as funny.

Me, a Redneck?...Please! Don't make me laugh...

The point that I'm trying to make, is that you seem to argue with everything everybody says, no matter what.
And when they rebutte, you get all "intellectual" on em, and either show off your prowess with using "big words", or just confuse the situation even moreso. Maybe you're just over-analyzing things?
I think so, remember this thread is about the possiblity of US gamers being more lazy than others...which basically means USA VS. the Japanese players.

Personally, in my opinion, it all matters from one individual to the next. Yea, some players will play for hours on end to improve with what ever means necessary, while others will simply play a game once or twice only to never play it again....or at least never play it seriously again.

Why all the analysis? The answer is no. Why no? Because there are way too many gamers to actually be able to come to a conclusion.

Hey, you like to analyze stuff, right?
Buy our CD "Ride the Boss" and analyze that!

[Randorama]

Forgot to reply to BM:

I don't deny that people like that do exist here, but I think if you step back and look at the "big picture" of this site

In fact i said a small group, not the majority

Well, I'm definitely one of those people who firmly believes that society at large should participate much more actively in the arts, if that means anything..

This is a 20th/21st century approach to arts. There are, for instance, artists that during theatrical representations that interact a lot with the public, which is a far more constructive approach than just sitting there and see someone reciting a piece. Why? Because the theatrical piece is subject to variations given by the interaction between artists and the public. In short, modern arts are becoming much more dynamic, so to speak.

What exactly is "new knowledge," in your view? And etc

New knowledge is something you haven't experienced before. True, you may read again "Gulliver's travels" when you're an adult and find out that it is much more than a cute, uhm, "fantasy" book, but that's more a flaw in our educational systems than else. At any case, and unless the author is willing to be ambiguous (...90% of the cases), it's much more about following a given reasoning pattern. In games (of any kind, including the artistical ones i have just mentioned), you make it on the spot.

Isn't "playing the same stage over and over again" the essence of practicing and perfecting a shmup? You adjust your strategy along the way, and so on and so forth, but it's still largely the same stuff...

Well, your first statement is a bit clashing with the second. Point is, though, that a game doesn't give you (most of the times) a given pattern to follow: you have to find it by yourself, so to speak. Now, one specific point is that, well, not all novels are the same...something very close to games can be found in Queneau's books, and in fact Queneau was a mathematician. Again, some of the modern art productions tend to have quite a rational approach, so to speak, instead of the classic " omg i'm revealing you the truth!!1!" approach.

As for rank, as stated before, my opinion of it has changed over time...I'm still not rabid about some of the systems used, but you probably recall that I did buy myself a copy of Garegga some time back, if that means anything.

Yes, the ability to change opinions can be a virtue, i think. Or: would you propose " commandments", now? But well, let's make an example pertinent to the topic: in theory, you could even sit down, understand the game well enough to find out how to complete it, and achieve said goal. Now, the question arises spontaneous: would you spend more time trying to best the official best score? It would imply, first, find out how to score that much.

Aside that, it would imply to practice a lot to get smaller and smaller results. In case you want help, all of us Garegga "players" can help, but the ultimate source is the insanity DVD, for some planes. In that case, you'd be forced (unless you see the video and find out that the player is doing something wrong, and you can find a better method) to copy his methods (and if you DON'T understand what's going on, it's a torture). Now, what this for? To be the first in a 10 years old game?If the competition were fresh, i would understand it, but well, old competition is something i also find detrimental (in the sense: i have to catch up, damn).

Now,there are surely some players (japanese, western, whatever) that really like their games enough to dissect them by themselves: i can think of BBH (who also posts here, aside Neo-Geo.com) and Shock Troopers, or the guy who has the best scores on XII Stag and Trizeal. But i doubt that, in such cases, it's a matter of geographical/cultural origins.

[Randorama]

Thats pretty funny. I didn't know that "brains" could make funny jokes. Well, ones that normal people could percieve as funny.

Me, a Redneck?...Please! Don't make me laugh...




The point that I'm trying to make, is that you seem to argue with everything everybody says, no matter what.
And when they rebutte, you get all "intellectual" on em, and either show off your prowess with using "big words", or just confuse the situation even moreso. Maybe you're just over-analyzing things?

Uhm, no, i don't think so. Beside that, i'm willing to argue everything with everybody, i don't think that we can agree if we don't check our points of view first!

I think so, remember this thread is about the possiblity of US gamers being more lazy than others...which basically means USA VS. the Japanese players.

"Western" and "US" are not the same thing, like "japanese" and "asian" are not the same thing. It would be nice if you'd take in consideration the rest of the world, you know?

[Turrican]

Literature is far more pointless than videogames.Any game is far more stimulating to brain than any mass of words put together to explain the universe.Videogames, on the other hand, force you to reason in order to obtain a reward.

Didn't know that Tolstoj invented the steam machine, or: is "literature" any written text, in English? I happen to use the word to refer to fiction and novels. Which are a tad pointless.

Literature or, reading a novel (or any other stories,in short: stuff that doesn't imply new knowledge) is following a a pretty abused path, so to speak.It's like watching tv, in this regard: no external stimuli except for the visual ones (but you're processing words instead of images, different hemisphere to be numbed down). Your cognitive system at some point literally go in standby mode, so to speak.

As all human beings, i like learning new things to increase my chances of survival.This means that i have a positive emotion (let's label it fun, i can't check any handbooks right now) whenever i'm successful at these types of tasks (Do you need proof for this?).

Let's say that i'm mixing various aspects of cognitive sciences, which also involve social sciences, in the said explanations of mine.

If i explain to a kid gravity, is my explanation faulty because i can't tell him which was my physics handbook of high-school? This is a bit absurd, honestly, do i even have to tell you why?

I've seen sad things in my life, but what is more pathetic than a self-proclaimed "shmup scientist" that ditches Tolstoj and novels because the "fine arts" don't stimulate the proper brain's emisphere and don't imply "knowledge"...

So, you're a physician that can explain to kids why an apple fell from the tree. But kids will grab the apple and taste how it's sweet. And when you eat an apple, it doesn't taste any sweeter just because you know the principles of gravity.

Ah Ah, you really think of yourself as Isaac Newton (because you're into the science of shmups' scoring) and the rest of the world are "lazy westerners" that don't care to comprehend the rules of the world.

You seem to think that poetry is useless and humankind evolved when it invented the steam engine. Ah Ah. Such despise of culture and arts would be intolerable even if it came from Einstein himself. You are a parody of a scientist, like those wise men who ruled Laputa's Island in Swift's work. They were so busy with their scientific experiments that their wives had to come down to earth to find some fun.

And don't let me start with your crazy "shmupo darwinism", ie you like to learn shmup patterns and rules "to increase your chances of survival". I can't stop laughing.

You're a joke, man.

[TWITCHDOCTOR]

Randorama wrote:
"Western" and "US" are not the same thing, like "japanese" and "asian" are not the same thing. It would be nice if you'd take in consideration the rest of the world, you know? "

Ok, Ok...you little nit-pick.
However, in this case, the initial post clearly states Japan, and not Asia.
How often is the term "Western" associated with Europe, or Italy? I've never heard of it.
Keep your rolling eyes to yourself...