Are some western shmup players lazy when it comes to shmups?

[Super Glob]

In Japan there are people playing the same game for many years, and it’s not always linked to competition (VTF Ika double play vids come to mind.).
Over in the west you tend to get the new console released shmup played for three months if you’re lucky, then mostly everyone seems to give up.
Then there are people who seem to have a fit if a game has a scoring system, I mean what is the point in playing the games then? They just become mindless, repetitive, mind dulling experiences.
Sure it is fun to dodge bullets when you first start playing shmups, but this can’t last forever.

Is thinking too hard to do for the western person?
Will any western player ever complete both loops of Dodonpachi DOJ or Ketsui?
Am I being too harsh?

edit = Changed the title to avoid confusion.

[WarpZone]

Your questions relate the the bulk of "casual" western gamers, perhaps, but is that not also true of the bulk of "casual" Japanese gamers? Shooters are niche in both hemispheres, just moreso here.

If you think about it, the west has its own genres where people play games for years, perfecting them. FPS clans and tournaments come to mind, and some of the stuff they can do is amazing.

[BulletMagnet]

Just because you don't devote yourself heart and soul for countless hours to a video game doesn't make you "lazy," at least I don't think so. I think it's possible to play a game and enjoy it "fully" (for lack of a better word) without completely perfecting it; heck, you don't hear most casual players telling the hardcore types to "put down the controller and get a life," so why should the latter look down on the former for being less devoted to the games they play? Play and let play, I say.

[Rob]

I think some people (OK, a lot) don't try much at all. That is mildly disappointing.

There's only so far I will go in mastering a game. I think I aim for competence because any more just seems like work and no one likes work in America.

[zlk]

There are no arcades in the USA. This makes it nearly impossible for people to get really good at shmups. If you have 10 people in an arcade trying to figure out how to score well in a game, they will do much better than the one guy playing the game alone in their home.

[PFG 9000]

Seeing as the point of games is to have fun, I don't think the term lazy can apply in any way, shape, or form. For some gamers, it's fun to perfect one's skills at a game, or perhaps it's the "reputation" built up by doing so that is enjoyable. For other gamers, it's fun to play a game for awhile and then move on to a new one when that game is no longer fun. Either way, gamers both casual and hardcore play games to have fun.

Even in Japan with the different social views toward gaming, playing games is still a hobby, a past time.

For me, gaming is a way to kick back and relieve stress. After spending time at work most of the day to pay my bills, then running errands both at home and away, I don't have anywhere near the free time I would need to perfect my skills at your typical shmup, and the free time that I do have is split between a number of different hobbies. I certainly don't care to have any sort of renown among anybody for gaming skills, as that sort of thing is a bit ridiculous to me. Perfecting my skills would be more a waste of time for me than anything else, so I simply play until I get bored of a game, then put it on the shelf for a few months/years until I feel like going back to it again.

[Rob]

But then there's this forum, its competition in the score section and info in the strategy section + various super replays. (response to zlk)

[adam76]

Just because you don't devote yourself heart and soul for countless hours to a video game doesn't make you "lazy... heck, you don't hear most casual players telling the hardcore types to "put down the controller and get a life,"

Put down the controller mate and get a life.

Truthfully, theres only so much time that one of such advancing years like myself can spend playing videogames. I play as much as i can, but i'll be damned if the mastery of another crazy-ass scoring system is going to lose me any more grey hairs than is commonly thought to be acceptable.

[Smraedis]

I sure spend lots of time learning certain games, and usually end up with good results, I know I'm not better than some of the best players though.

haven't quite a few people got at least 25m+ on Ika too?

[Leeram]

Let's turn this around...

I think Japanese players are lazy at video games. While we in the west are battling against 6 or 7 games from different genres, all at once, and constantly changing those games as time goes by (and thus getting better at all video games) the Japanese prefer to stick to one game that they learned within the first year so they can brag to their mates about how good they are at that one game...

Cheers

Leeram

[zlk]

But then there's this forum, its competition in the score section and info in the strategy section + various super replays. (response to zlk)

There can be absolutely no reasonable comparison to someone on this forum playing on a supergun in their basement and someone in Tokyo who can go to about 10 different arcades and see at least 50 people play their favorite game each week.

Lets say you want to get good at Ibara. There is one semi-decent replay of the game on the net where someone from Japan gets to stage 8 on extended mode. You get to watch ONE guy's techniques in ONE game he played. There are maybe 5 people on the forum playing ibara and there isn't much discussion going on.

I would guess that there are at least 100 people in Tokyo alone who can finish Ibara on one credit. Show up to any random arcade and you are going to see some good players play the game. Stuck in a certain area? Then watch someone better than you. Ask them in person how they deal with that area. You could have them watch you play and give you advice. These guys are also probably trading Ibara replay tapes back and forth as well. The advantages of going to an arcade with an active community are immense.

[MovingTarget]

I enjoy improving my skills, I like the rewarding feeling of getting further, getting higher scores. And the hope of some day having a reputation

The more you play the better you get, obviously. But one thing is definetly worth remembering, even once you get bored its worth it to keep on playing, as you may reach a new level of skill and figure out things you never realised about a game, therefore your enjoyment of the game can become refreshed, and the reward of getting further will be worth persisting past your boredom.... I know that has happened a lot of times to me, nothing beats the feeling of cruising past your high score(in the world of gaming :p).

Plus its a nice feeling to be on a highscore board, even if it is second last(last is intolerable )

[Icarus]

The advantages of going to an arcade with an active community are immense.

It's because there are no longer many large active arcades outside of Japan that forces players to make do with whatever they can use in substitute. While the benefits of going into an arcade and watching a player take a game apart in real-time are immense, we just don't have that facility. So a forum with irregular discussion of strategy, trading of superplays (an act which is still frowned upon by some people) and small but heated highscore battles is the best we have available.

[Rob]

Lets say you want to get good at Ibara. There is one semi-decent replay of the game on the net where someone from Japan gets to stage 8 on extended mode. You get to watch ONE guy's techniques in ONE game he played. There are maybe 5 people on the forum playing ibara and there isn't much discussion going on.

I would guess that there are at least 100 people in Tokyo alone who can finish Ibara on one credit. Show up to any random arcade and you are going to see some good players play the game. Stuck in a certain area? Then watch someone better than you. Ask them in person how they deal with that area. You could have them watch you play and give you advice. These guys are also probably trading Ibara replay tapes back and forth as well. The advantages of going to an arcade with an active community are immense.

Yeah, a new game is going to have an advantage for native Japanese arcades since there are no ports and the information has yet to be disseminated. But after a few years and a port, any player should have a handy "kit" if they wanted. The playing field seems fairly level after a certain point. See one player or see five, doesn't the sharing of information homogenize the strategies people use as they seek perfection?

[Randorama]

How ISO does 86 quadrillions on GW2 though...?Assuming that you can hack the engine by yourself and use videos to compensate for knowledge, the rest becomes easily practice.And then, there are the ones who sit down and try to compensate for years of advantages by japanese players.For the rest, it's about whining about how much learning to do things is ugly because fun must be brainless, or like Rob said: damn those no brains and their "fun".

[zlk]

How ISO does 86 quadrillions on GW2 though...?

If you think ISO doesn't watch others play, doesn't talk to other players, and plays alone in his basement, then I have a bridge I would like to sell you.

"Two heads are better than one" is a popular saying for a reason.

[Icarus]

"Two heads are better than one" is a popular saying for a reason.

That saying doesn't amount to anything unless one of those heads is spilling the beans.

[Randorama]

How ISO does 86 quadrillions on GW2 though...?

If you think ISO doesn't watch others play, doesn't talk to other players, and plays alone in his basement, then I have a bridge I would like to sell you.

"Two heads are better than one" is a popular saying for a reason.

eh, the intended meaning is "How can you do a given score in a game of which you don't all the scoring secrets"? I'm not the one who has spent years saying that videos are cheating, so...I would add that 2 heads are better than one when they cooperate.In many cases, too, ports help a lot, practicing stages becomes much easier.

[Valgar]

Ikaruga had a really good community for lacking arcades. The thing is everyone there was dedicated (I played for ~2 years), weren't afraid to upload/download videos, and always talked about it.

When I was watching WIZs video I always thought how much more could be learned if another replay was included, even if the score was lower.

The biggest thing is lack of dedication, you just have to choose one and go for it.

[BulletMagnet]

For the rest, it's about whining about how much learning to do things is ugly because fun must be brainless, or like Rob said: damn those no brains and their "fun".

From here, there seems to be more whining about people whining than there is actual whining to whine about in the first place.

Honestly, at least in my experience, lesser players are content to do their thing and let the higher-level players do theirs, without protest...some among the latter group, however, rarely miss an opportunity to take a potshot at the "inferior approach" (and "complaining attitude" ) of the former. Honestly, just let people play their games as they please...

[cigsthecat]

When I lived in SF and got to play with IlMrm at SF state it was a great experience. I learned a ton in in only a few days at RFJ because he would share tips and strategies as I played. I don't think the arcade community in Japan can be ignored as a major factor in their "superiority" in shooters.

That being said, getting good at anything takes a lot of work. If you don't love a game, you won't be brilliant at it. On the whole people here could strive to do a bit more. Find your game and figure it out.

[Icarus]

That being said, getting good at anything takes a lot of work. If you don't love a game, you won't be brilliant at it. On the whole people here could strive to do a bit more. Find your game and figure it out.

I agree wholeheartedly. For every player, there is a game that will change the way they play.

[Neon]

Hmm. Lazy? I fuck around with a lot of games I'll never have a world record at just like anyone. At the same time I kinda think it's silly that a lot of people don't even try to get good at a specific game before deciding scoreplay isn't for them. The difference in the level of enjoyment you get out of a game just starting out vs. having mastered it is immense, in my experience.

I recommend all 'I suck' types try to 1 life metal slug 1...it took me a month of on and off play, w/savestates. It's really not too difficult once you've got strategies worked out and the levels memorized. But you get a feel for how mastery can change things.

[Thunder Force]

Do those legendary japanese arcade shmup record makers hold down full time jobs?

I know some of the world record makers (in the west) for non-shmup games like Donkey Kong are unemployed (that's why they have so much time to practice)...

[Dandy J]

About VF players:

"You'll realize that the best players here live VF, they don't have real jobs, part timers at best, kind of the dregs of society. That's what it takes to become the best in the world, giving up everything."

If you live a normal life, try not to worry too much about the absolute best Japanese players.

[professor ganson]

When I lived in SF and got to play with IlMrm at SF state it was a great experience.

You guys were at SFSU? Dude, that's where I started Greek and Latin. Transfered to UC Davis as a junior. Maybe something about the SFSU experience makes people like Psikyo games?

[Neon]

I am a full time student with a relatively ordinary social life...let's not go throwing around middle-school level insults. Maybe not the way you guys meant it but it sounds arrogant.

Anyways, playing the game everyday is key. I think you'd get better playing it 10 minutes per day every day of the week than playing it 2 hours once a week.

I was going to say 'try it before you diss it' but I predicted another Trizeal debate

[cigsthecat]

When I lived in SF and got to play with IlMrm at SF state it was a great experience.

You guys were at SFSU? Dude, that's where I started Greek and Latin. Transfered to UC Davis as a junior. Maybe something about the SFSU experience makes people like Psikyo games?

I never attended the school but lived in the area for a little while.

[IlMrm]

When I lived in SF and got to play with IlMrm at SF state it was a great experience.

You guys were at SFSU? Dude, that's where I started Greek and Latin. Transfered to UC Davis as a junior. Maybe something about the SFSU experience makes people like Psikyo games?

I did dropped a couple hundred bucks into the Strikers 1945 Plus machine there.

I should go back there one of these days and see if there's anything new.

[DEL]

zlk wrote:

The advantages of going to an arcade with an active community are immense

I couldn't agree more.

Here's the proof;

We were fortunate to speak with Japanese arcade player RAM over on click-stick (on the subject of Mushihimesama).

RAM said words to the effect; "My score is not really my score, it is the culmination of my friends' info and co-operation."
RAM's Japanese arcade friends are getting 900mil+ on Maniac Mode. He is able to share info with them and watch first-hand.

RAM added that "Your score is your score" and that he doesn't expect us to squeeze scores as well as the Japanese arcade players, simply due to the fact that the Japanese Arcade Scene is not available to us.

Its a fair point & I agree (with the possible exception of Rob & Rando pushing Japanese-type scores on GWG ).