Nintendo 3DS (XL)

[Skykid]

Red herring. The sales of the 3DS have nothing to do with the subject.

Not directly it doesn't, just making the point that a second analog stick is clearly not a pre-requisite to making a games console appealing and successful. The quality of the software needs to cover that ground.

I don't care if Nintendo's reputation precedes them, if the 3DS has no value in terms of usability or software, it would deservedly die a death (as much as was warned by its terrible launch figures.)

However, having a second analog stick would make a lot of games less awkward to control, ie Kid Icarus Uprising.

Can you tell me a little more about this one? I find Uprising appealing from the screens, the character design is really cool - but I have no idea how it plays. Curious to know how an original (sort of) Nintendo first-party title fares these days.

[t0yrobo]

It's an unnecessary feature that takes up a large amount of physical space and doesn't offer much value.

It`s comments like these that make me think that some people here have either skipped a few generations of gaming or play only shmups, 2D stuff and nothing else. I mean, seriously... second stick an unnecessary feature?

On a portable, yes. There's plenty of space for a 2nd analog on a console controller, so it's ok that many games barely use it for anything but camera controls. There simply isn't much space available on the 3ds, even on the Vita the placement is really awkward and that thing is huge.
But on a portable space is at a premium, and for portable games it shouldn't be necessary. Of course the whole "portable games" thing is it's own issue since so many people think that portable games should be the same as console games, which is a concept that I completely disagree with.

[Marc]

(even with CCP it`s only barely playable).

So, really, the second stick is a moot point then? Besides which, I thought Snake Eater was one of those titles ported over from a home system that misses the point of portable gaming anyways?

Don't see it as a huge issue myself, I very rarely missed one on the PSP, maybe designers will have to think harder about their control schemes rather than just cramming everything in and leaving it to the player to sort out their shitty camera. When they're done properly, the player shouldn't have to touch the camera, as Nintendo's own 16-year old Mario 64 proves ably.

[Op Intensify]

When they're done properly, the player shouldn't have to touch the camera, as Nintendo's own 16-year old Mario 64 proves ably.

It sounds like you haven't even played Mario 64, as you have to adjust the camera CONSTANTLY in that game, especially in the DS version. That's why they gave you such elaborate controls for it and made a big deal about Lakitu being the cameraman.

[Friendly]

There's plenty of space for a 2nd analog on a console controller, so it's ok that many games barely use it for anything but camera controls. There simply isn't much space available on the 3ds

You are right, why didn't I think of that! There is just no way they could have fit it on that tiny 3DS XL.

[Marc]

When they're done properly, the player shouldn't have to touch the camera, as Nintendo's own 16-year old Mario 64 proves ably.

It sounds like you haven't even played Mario 64, as you have to adjust the camera CONSTANTLY in that game, especially in the DS version. That's why they gave you such elaborate controls for it and made a big deal about Lakitu being the cameraman.

Not DS I haven't and all I can say that if you have to adjust the camera anything like 'constantly', it's a piss poor port.

[Turrican]

a second analog stick is clearly not a pre-requisite to making a games console appealing and successful. The quality of the software needs to cover that ground.

indeed, it's amazing that a console with no games can sparkle a three pages discussion over the lack of an additional stick.

[Drum]

Mario 64 DS port has terrible controls ... for movement. But the camera controls are fine. Because a touch screen is perfectly fine for camera controls. Only a handful of games in history have actually benefited from a second stick, and even then these same games would probably benefit more from a trackball or something. You might as well ask why the 3DS doesn't have a steering wheel or a fishing reel. I'm more bothered that it doesn't have mousewheel-style shoulder buttons, which have far broader uses than a second stick - but I'm not going to complain about that because it wouldn't even occur to most people to put them on.
The whole argument is transparently political.

[Friendly]

There are many DS games that would have played better with a second stick instead of the awkward touch screen controls. Prime example: Metroid Prime Hunters.

[Skykid]

The whole argument is transparently political.

Indeed, as seems to be the case with similar threads of late.

it's amazing that a console with no games can sparkle a three pages discussion over the lack of an additional stick.

True, I can only name five games that interest me. Enough to justify a purchase, but not enough to justify the console's existence at this point. It definitely needs more choice.

What happened to that Shinobi game, did it turn out wack?

[Op Intensify]

Mario 64 DS port has terrible controls ... for movement. But the camera controls are fine. Because a touch screen is perfectly fine for camera controls.

I always used the L button, like any sane person. The D-pad worked more than well enough for movement, and was much preferable to dealing with a stylus in my left hand. Also, despite the DS version requiring more frequent adjustments of the camera, I found its camera controls to be much more responsive and accurate.

I've read that Shinobi 3DS is surprisingly good, and more faithful to the series than you'd expect. But it IS still yet another one of those farmed-out Western reboots of a classic franchise. There's the obligatory QTE finisher moves and the whole aesthetic is rather dodgy; they made a feeble attempt at aping Okami's visuals. Everyone says the old-school difficulty level is still totally there, though.

[Jonathan Ingram]

Besides which, I thought Snake Eater was one of those titles ported over from a home system that misses the point of portable gaming anyways?

I think the only point of portable gaming as well as console gaming is getting quality gaming experiences of any kind.

Only a handful of games in history have actually benefited from a second stick, and even then these same games would probably benefit more from a trackball or something.

Here`s a bunch of games I played in the past month alone that used a second stick and would`ve been considerably worse without it:

Red Dead Redemption(360)
Just Cause 2(PS3)
Katamari Forever(PS3)
Monster Hunter Tri(Wii)
MGS3: Snake Eater HD(Vita)
Uncharted: Golden Abyss(Vita)
Dark Souls(PS3)

You might as well ask why the 3DS doesn't have a steering wheel or a fishing reel.

Should be pretty obvious, no? - It`s because there`s no way you could ever stick them in there unlike the second analog stick which wouldn`t be out of place at all and should be a given on modern portables:

The whole argument is transparently political.

Everyone against the second stick is a right-wing reactionary.

[Skykid]

^ The screen on the Vita does give me a go go gadget hard-on. I wish someone would hack that shit already, it's made for Progear.

[louisg]

I think if they added a second stick that was completely general-purpose (meaning, for more than MH), you'd probably want more than two triggers, right? Having your thumb on two sticks means you can't hit the face buttons.

It'd be really nice for FPS games (two sticks + 4 triggers), but I'm not seeing it being quite as necessary considering even in 3d games most of the action takes place on one plane (could use triggers to rotate the view). I'm guessing too that Nintendo is kind of on thin ice after burning early adopters with that price drop, so burning them a second time by making a second stick permanent might not be the smartest idea...

[Friendly]

I'm guessing too that Nintendo is kind of on thin ice after burning early adopters with that price drop, so burning them a second time by making a second stick permanent might not be the smartest idea...

I'm pretty certain that this is the main (only?) reason they didn't do it.

[Teufel_in_Blau]

3DS XL in action:

http://vimeo.com/44752714

Also stolen from the gaf thread:

I can sum it up.

- The screens are HUUUGE!
- DS games will get a "third life" on the bigger screen.
- The 3D effect is easier on the eye and nicer to the look.
- The technology behind the 3D might have been improved on the XL model. (To confirm)
- They think there's some kind of "filter" at works here because the pixels appear "rounded."
- "The XL is so much more comfortable to hold than the original 3DS that we have to ask what the hell has Nintendo been doing in R&D with the original model." (Paraphrased)
- The difference might be small, but the buttons felt well placed and of better quality.
- The circle pad appears bigger. (To confirm)
- Surprisingly light for its size.
- 3DS games will gain new life from the XL.
- Speakers and sounds doesn't appear to have improve. (Was in a noisy room, to confirm.)
- The XL is an upgrade on the 3DS from almost every single point.

The bolded text I find the most interesting. Apparently they using some filter to make the DS and 3DS games looks smoother.

[Skykid]

Goddamn, why is the video not working! >:(

The photos look damn sexy. That's a lot of screen.

[shmuppyLove]

Holy crap it's huge ... looks like a netbook

[Ganelon]

The bolded text I find the most interesting. Apparently they using some filter to make the DS and 3DS games looks smoother.

As long as there's an option to remove the filter, this addition is a good option.

[njiska]

The more comfortable form factor is great news. My current 3DS hurts like hell to hold for more than an hour or so.

[Marc]

I think if they added a second stick that was completely general-purpose (meaning, for more than MH), you'd probably want more than two triggers, right? Having your thumb on two sticks means you can't hit the face buttons.

It'd be really nice for FPS games (two sticks + 4 triggers), but I'm not seeing it being quite as necessary considering even in 3d games most of the action takes place on one plane (could use triggers to rotate the view). I'm guessing too that Nintendo is kind of on thin ice after burning early adopters with that price drop, so burning them a second time by making a second stick permanent might not be the smartest idea...

This. Basically, you're either trying to emulate 'proper' gaming, in which case two triggers are no good, or you stop being lazy and design the game around the form.

[Despatche]

It's compatible with DSi/XL a/c adapters, so most people probably have one already.

That's the point, the XL/LL is being sold as an upgrade. Surprised it isn't carrying over to the American release.

is it me, or at DS's first hardware revision (that's be the lite), there was already a huge library of good-to-great titles for the system, many of which are now considered classics?

Few. That was 2006. Things didn't really pick up until 2007/2008 and beyond.

Is it compatible with the fat first gen DS adapters?

None of the other DSes are, so no.

What happened to that Shinobi game, did it turn out wack?

I heard it was good, still would like to play the thing.

[t0yrobo]

There's plenty of space for a 2nd analog on a console controller, so it's ok that many games barely use it for anything but camera controls. There simply isn't much space available on the 3ds

You are right, why didn't I think of that! There is just no way they could have fit it on that tiny 3DS XL.

Yeah that's the obvious solution. Except that the current 3DS has a cutout in the pcb in order to fit the analog stick, it's not just surface mounted. i.e. you can't just stick it anywhere it looks like there's space.
Till it's available no one can say for sure if there's space inside, but considering that Nintendo tends to build things like bricks it's highly unlikely.

[Skykid]

Okay the video ran for me now. Must have been getting too many hits earlier on or something.

Looks really good, I'm surprised how thin it is considering a large proportion of the surface area is nothing but screen. Definitely looking forward to seeing if the 3D is easier on the eye and more immersive. I'm going to save some pennies for launch, but why do non-Japanese regions get such ludicrously gay colour choices? Blue, Red and Silver, wtf, just gimme the white.

[Op Intensify]

This. Basically, you're either trying to emulate 'proper' gaming, in which case two triggers are no good, or you stop being lazy and design the game around the form.

The Vita can emulate a second set of shoulder buttons with the rear touch panel. Also, the 3DS Circle Pad Pro add-on adds a third shoulder button.

[Obiwanshinobi]

I think if they added a second stick that was completely general-purpose (meaning, for more than MH), you'd probably want more than two triggers, right? Having your thumb on two sticks means you can't hit the face buttons.

It'd be really nice for FPS games (two sticks + 4 triggers), but I'm not seeing it being quite as necessary considering even in 3d games most of the action takes place on one plane (could use triggers to rotate the view). I'm guessing too that Nintendo is kind of on thin ice after burning early adopters with that price drop, so burning them a second time by making a second stick permanent might not be the smartest idea...

I keep banging on about Apocalypse, but it utilised all four triggers indeed. Nevertheless, only jumping and running would require triggers badly. Smart bomb and weapon toggle would work ALMOST as well mapped onto face buttons.
That game blew me away and I still think it made better use of twin sticks than Katamari Damacy or even Virtual-On. No idea why so few games aped it, rather clumsily I might add: only Hunter: The Reckoning (on consoles) and NightCaster come to mind, whereas way more hectic Crimson Sea didn't.
Serious question - can't Japanese developers do twin stick controls in action games properly anymore? Assault and Virtual-On were pretty promising in their days.

[moonblood]

The most troubling thing with the 3DS IMO is the lack of proper 2D games, for example when those screenshots of the new castlevania showed up I was very dissapointed I was kinda expecting it to tip me over into buying the machine like dawn of sorrow made me buy the original DS.

Oh, and the region locking sucks too stuff like Code of princess still hasn't been announced for Europe and that's one of the (very) few interesting games there is for the machine so far

[Jonathan Ingram]

Nintendo will be offering a 3DS XL version of the Circle Pad Pro some time this year.

Source: http://andriasang.com/con1pd/3ds_circle_pad_expansion/


Who would`ve thought!?

[Marc]

Fuck me, it barely qualifies as portable once that monstrosity is added!

[Op Intensify]

Oh, and the region locking sucks too stuff like Code of princess still hasn't been announced for Europe and that's one of the (very) few interesting games there is for the machine so far

It's a shameless copy of Guardian Heroes. Not even a ripoff, it's the same damn game! Look:

Bar: GH COP

Town: GH COP

Forest: GH COP

Graveyard: GH COP

Field: GH COP

Castle: GH COP

Treasure should sue Agatsuma Entertainment. I'm serious.