Defining "survival" play

[Kollision]

Survival play can only be purely defined in shmups with no scoring at all.

Terra Cresta 3D
Barunba
Hani in the Sky
Space Defending Force SDF (such a pity this one )
...and a shitload of XBLIG crap

[burgerkingdiamond]

Survival play can only be purely defined in shmups with no scoring at all.

Terra Cresta 3D
Barunba
Hani in the Sky
Space Defending Force SDF (such a pity this one )
...and a shitload of XBLIG crap

What about something like Raiden (not DX). The only scoring element is the medals and not bombing. Mostly a high score just comes from surviving for a long time. You can't really do one without the other.

[Kollision]

Well, I would say Raiden is one of the most classic old school "endurance-style" scoring systems. It's simply learning how to preserve bombs and get static medals to inflate the score. There's also the keeping with the same weapon type and uncovering fairies for extra score bonuses.
Rudimentary yeah, but still a good level above many other shmups with no incentive to no-bombing, no-medalling and such.

[BIL]

huh? sure there is.

No meaningful scoring - you can counterstop the game by milking the first boss battle, if you've got the time to kill. What makes it one of my favourite shooters is the skilled use it demands of the strafing mechanic to stay alive, via its ruthless enemies.

[dunpeal2064]

Well, I would say Raiden is one of the most classic old school "endurance-style" scoring systems. It's simply learning how to preserve bombs and get static medals to inflate the score. There's also the keeping with the same weapon type and uncovering fairies for extra score bonuses.
Rudimentary yeah, but still a good level above many other shmups with no incentive to no-bombing, no-medalling and such.

Saving bombs may add to your score, but that is somethign saved for those that have mastered a good portion of the game. I'd say that, from the perspective of someone who can barely make it through stage 3 in Raiden II, that it feels completely survival.

Aren't the medals and Misclus random anyways?

[RNGmaster]

I vote for flailing and dodging on reaction. This isn't because that's the only way to play solely for survival, but if I'm going to analyze a game in depth and really focus on practicing a route, I'm playing survival for score in a way.

Survival play to me means just developing an intuitive understanding of the game via repeated attempts and undirected play. I find this to be much more enjoyable under most circumstances than scoreplay because of the spontaneity and the greater sense of skill. I know that playing for score takes skill, too, and I enjoy it, but there's something about unplanned dodging that's just so satisfying, I dunno.

What I really don't like is how many people on this forum treat playing shmups as a race rather than a hobby. Gus might smirk at this post and say "well, enjoy wasting your time, scrub". And I will enjoy wasting my time, pulling out crazy dodges, while the serious scoreplayers are restarting 40 minutes into a run over and over again. You can play however you want but I find undirected play to be more enjoyable.

To be honest I probably yell at the screen just as much when I'm "survival playing" but I like just messing around.

[TrevHead (TVR)]

For me its a risk and reward thing, do I need to be playing for score when my efforts need to go into the 1CC? And because i'm bad at keeping my cool when i'm doing well in a run. I still need to practice often to the point of boredem to overcome any mental block.

[burgerkingdiamond]

Well, I would say Raiden is one of the most classic old school "endurance-style" scoring systems. It's simply learning how to preserve bombs and get static medals to inflate the score. There's also the keeping with the same weapon type and uncovering fairies for extra score bonuses.
Rudimentary yeah, but still a good level above many other shmups with no incentive to no-bombing, no-medalling and such.

Saving bombs may add to your score, but that is somethign saved for those that have mastered a good portion of the game. I'd say that, from the perspective of someone who can barely make it through stage 3 in Raiden II, that it feels completely survival.

Aren't the medals and Misclus random anyways?

no, the medals aren't random. Your end bonus is #medals x #bombs. So yes, if you pick up all medals and don't bomb ever you'll end up with a higher score. But pretty much, staying alive longer = higher score. So there's not much differentiation between the two.

To score really high you have to marathon loop after loop I think.

[saucykobold]

I think Paradigm's definition gets it right on the nail.

So yes, if you pick up all medals and don't bomb ever you'll end up with a higher score. But pretty much, staying alive longer = higher score. So there's not much differentiation between the two [in Raiden II].

There's actually a fairly big scoring difference between bomb-happy and NMNB runs. You guys are overlooking the fact that each surplus bomb is worth a ton if your stock is totally red or yellow. Dunpeal, blue medals and Micluses randomly show up in place of gold medals but this isn't a huge deal since you'll always get about the same number of each.

For more traditional games like R-Type, there are no real distinctions between scoring and survival.

Not really, at least in R-Type's case. Most 2-ALLs end up with about a million points; ben.shinobi and tviks scored over twice that much.

[Blackbird]

Survival play is playing by ignoring the scoring system and concentrating only on progressing as far as you can.

You use the optimal weapon for the situation, regardless of whether it is the ideal weapon for score. Perfect example of this is using shot to sweep/kill popcorns more rapidly in Futari Original, regardless of what color the counter is in. Another example would be ignoring proper weapon usage on boss death; glancing at the health bar to determine the timing for weapon switch is a distraction (however small) that could kill you if you're in the middle of dodging a pattern.

Another obvious example is putting distance between yourself and the target when it makes it easier to dodge the bullets. Playing further away in games that utilize point-blanking as a scoring mechanic (Ketsui, etc.) makes it easier to survive in a lot of situations, at the expense of score.

Scoring is about risk versus reward; increasing your risk so your reward (score) is higher. Survival is about minimizing risk. These strategies aren't always mutually exclusive, though; sometimes the optimal way to score in a section is also the optimal way to dodge it.

[Ghegs]

For more traditional games like R-Type, there are no real distinctions between scoring and survival.

Not really, at least in R-Type's case. Most 2-ALLs end up with about a million points; ben.shinobi and tviks scored over twice that much.

As much as I love R-Type playing it for score would be, to me, mind numbingly boring and pointless. It clearly wasn't designed to be played for score. I'd much rather just get a no-miss 2-ALL or something like a Forceless clear, that would feel more meaningful to me.

(Not that I don't tip my hat to ben.shinobi and tviks for the accomplishment.)

[Gus]

I vote for flailing and dodging on reaction. This isn't because that's the only way to play solely for survival, but if I'm going to analyze a game in depth and really focus on practicing a route, I'm playing survival for score in a way.

Survival play to me means just developing an intuitive understanding of the game via repeated attempts and undirected play. I find this to be much more enjoyable under most circumstances than scoreplay because of the spontaneity and the greater sense of skill. I know that playing for score takes skill, too, and I enjoy it, but there's something about unplanned dodging that's just so satisfying, I dunno.

What I really don't like is how many people on this forum treat playing shmups as a race rather than a hobby. Gus might smirk at this post and say "well, enjoy wasting your time, scrub". And I will enjoy wasting my time, pulling out crazy dodges, while the serious scoreplayers are restarting 40 minutes into a run over and over again. You can play however you want but I find undirected play to be more enjoyable.

To be honest I probably yell at the screen just as much when I'm "survival playing" but I like just messing around.

Yeah, like I said earlier isn't the whole reason people play for survival is because they can't be bothered to spend the time studying the game to get good scores? I have no idea why so many seem to have a have a hard time admitting this. If anybody actually is playing the game they same way high scorers do except you're focusing entirely on survival and not learning to score at all then I'm sorry, but you're an idiot. Also,

If you're doing the first, you're already doing the second. The longer you play, whether you're making a conscious effort to or not, you're picking up patterns and learning better solutions to survive longer.

Can't you say the same thing about playing on reaction? Even as someone who does everything I can to plan out every inch of my route and leave nothing to improvising there's still certain patterns where the only way I can find or at least the simplest is to just "read and dodge", so to speak. I think the poll was more asking which school do they lean more towards rather which they do exclusively.

[MX7]

If you read pretty much any interview with the top Japanese score players, they will invariably say the same thing "I never bother with scoring until I can comfortably 1CC the game". I was surprised by how long this can take for some top score players. A Ketsui dude said it took him a whole year to 2-all the game. He went on to get the world record. Ignoring score for a year... what a fucking casual (:

Anyway, STGs are all about blowing stuff up. Read any interview with a developer and you'll always see stock phrases like "refreshing sensation of things exploding" and the "satisfaction of getting a little bit further" or "a game anyone can beat with practice". STGs are the most casual, pick up and play genre ever made.

[O. Van Bruce]

I vote for flailing and dodging on reaction. This isn't because that's the only way to play solely for survival, but if I'm going to analyze a game in depth and really focus on practicing a route, I'm playing survival for score in a way.

Survival play to me means just developing an intuitive understanding of the game via repeated attempts and undirected play. I find this to be much more enjoyable under most circumstances than scoreplay because of the spontaneity and the greater sense of skill. I know that playing for score takes skill, too, and I enjoy it, but there's something about unplanned dodging that's just so satisfying, I dunno.

What I really don't like is how many people on this forum treat playing shmups as a race rather than a hobby. Gus might smirk at this post and say "well, enjoy wasting your time, scrub". And I will enjoy wasting my time, pulling out crazy dodges, while the serious scoreplayers are restarting 40 minutes into a run over and over again. You can play however you want but I find undirected play to be more enjoyable.

To be honest I probably yell at the screen just as much when I'm "survival playing" but I like just messing around.

Yeah, like I said earlier isn't the whole reason people play for survival is because they can't be bothered to spend the time studying the game to get good scores? I have no idea why so many seem to have a have a hard time admitting this. If anybody actually is playing the game they same way high scorers do except you're focusing entirely on survival and not learning to score at all then I'm sorry, but you're an idiot. Also,

I started playing shmups with Touhou... it took me 6 months to even get some interest in scoring and I was enjoying every game like a kid all that time. There are a lot of great players out there who don't give a fuck about score: No deaths and no bombs runs on Touhou, no laser challenge on DOJ, spaghetti laser and no hyper on DFK... and the craziest of all... no "Ice" runs on Lunatic Touhou 12.8 "Fairy Wars" (The weakest shot you'll ever see [you need to freeze to upgrade it, to get bombs and to get extra lives] No bombs, no extra lives, No Ice, FUCK TON OF FAST BULLETS and every enemy release suicide bullets).

Get on their level Gus.

[Illyrian]

Gus is a fucking scrub when it comes to being elitist.

Fucking scrub elitist, you haven't even made anyone quit the genre by making them feel bad.

[Gus]

A Ketsui dude said it took him a whole year to 2-all the game. He went on to get the world record. Ignoring score for a year... what a fucking casual (:

Except you're required to score 120m to even get into Ketsui's Ura loop, which gives you a ton of points just for surviving in it. Not exactly the same thing as the people struggling to bomb spam through the first loop of the game.

I started playing shmups with Touhou... it took me 6 months to even get some interest in scoring and I was enjoying every game like a kid all that time. There are a lot of great players out there who don't give a fuck about score: No deaths and no bombs runs on Touhou, no laser challenge on DOJ, spaghetti laser and no hyper on DFK... and the craziest of all... no "Ice" runs on Lunatic Touhou 12.8 "Fairy Wars" (The weakest shot you'll ever see [you need to freeze to upgrade it, to get bombs and to get extra lives] No bombs, no extra lives, No Ice, FUCK TON OF FAST BULLETS and every enemy release suicide bullets).

Irrelevant as I was talking about the people who only played to "1cc" games. Besides that those don't seem to be good examples to use as while I don't know about Touhou both the no laser DOJ and spaghetti DFK stuff were done by guys who already had some of the best scores on here in those games.

[BareKnuckleRoo]

Yeah, like I said earlier isn't the whole reason people play for survival is because they can't be bothered to spend the time studying the game to get good scores? I have no idea why so many seem to have a have a hard time admitting this.

Who exactly is denying it? If people enjoy the genre purely for the dodging and survival and not the score, it's not really productive to constantly tell them they're playing "wrong" when most shmups are designed to be accessible both for people just looking to clear as well as work on scoring. You seem to have a hard time accepting that some people simply aren't interested in scoring or they're not at the skill level yet where they feel comfortable to actively work on scoring in a game, let alone clear it.

It's great that you're a pro and all, but you're acting as though all shmups are effortless to clear, let alone survive on. You would probably see more people working their way up to scoring sooner if you were more encouraging rather than just calling everyone who isn't up to your skill level 'scrubs'.

[CptRansom]

[Skykid]

Yeah, like I said earlier isn't the whole reason people play for survival is because they can't be bothered to spend the time studying the game to get good scores? I have no idea why so many seem to have a have a hard time admitting this. If anybody actually is playing the game they same way high scorers do except you're focusing entirely on survival and not learning to score at all then I'm sorry, but you're an idiot.

The moderators should put aside your achievements and consider banning you Gus.

This rhetoric of yours is getting old, you're like a broken record. Worse, you're actually lowering the tone of the entire forum by constantly insinuating that there's a vast gulf of credibility between players like you, who play in an unhealthily obsessive fashion, forgoing friends, sunlight, and the pleasures of social activities; and those who are here to enjoy the genre and the hobby to their own personal maximums.

The only invisible line that separates you from any one else on here is that you're an asshole.

We can respect your scoring ability but not your ethics or demeanour. It would be good for the entire forum if you took a leave of absence.

[njiska]

Oh survival vs. score threads, how I loath the. Why can't we all just get along and stop caring how other people play? Survival play is playing with the goal of surviving. Nothing more. You can be flailing all over the place or you can be playing smart and using skills like bullet herding or you can be playing as if you're trying to score, but not really caring about your score, so much as your survival. All that matters for defining survival play vs. score is your focus, NOT your skill.

I swear some times that people on this forum forget that these are just games and your ultimate goal should just be to enjoy yourself. Whatever form that takes is up to you.

[Jeneki]

To score really high you have to marathon loop after loop I think.

Yea, a few weekends ago I saw a guy with 20 million (arcade cab at Anime Detour 2012). I think I had around 300k on my play to level 4. If two players are credit feeding, it doesn't look like the score resets unless both game over at the same time.

[O. Van Bruce]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cyMGHtyj4I8&

Gus... click the link and go to shmupland just a moment, then come back and try to rephrase your arguments.

[AntiFritz]

I'm starting to think gus is just dtp but did a 180 and somehow gained skills overnight...

[Randorama]

Survival play is when you don't die, but don't much else altogether, even if you may stumble to the "game clear!" screen.

And I agree with Sky-"Zuntata"-Kid (!!!). A general ban of Gus and other anti-social, obsessive-compulsive/passive-aggressive users who spend their posts telling other people how they should do stuff, would be the greatest thing ever, on this forum.

[BareKnuckleRoo]

The moderators should put aside your achievements and consider banning you Gus.

We can respect your scoring ability but not your ethics or demeanour. It would be good for the entire forum if you took a leave of absence.

inb4 "ur just jealous of my scores, scrub"

[AntiFritz]

Banning seems very harsh considering he probably hasn't broken any rules.

and besides it would just be mjclark 2.0

[O. Van Bruce]

Survival play is when you don't die, but don't much else altogether, even if you may stumble to the "game clear!" screen.

And I agree with Sky-"Zuntata"-Kid (!!!). A general ban of Gus and other anti-social, obsessive-compulsive/passive-aggressive users who spend their posts telling other people how they should do stuff, would be the greatest thing ever, on this forum.

I don't think that he should be banned for his views. For me he has a place in this comunity as someone who actively pursues perfection on the games he love. He should deserve some degree of respect on that.

Personally, I'm used to his ways and I allways take then with no real hate or problems... I doubt that Gus has ever made someone quit shmups because we are all here to deny the obsessive spirit of some of his posts. Besides, when he's not going "full shmup" he can make very good contributions to a thread.

fraternity even when our views are different... that's how I percieve this forum even with all the arguments that start bettwen us...

[Randorama]

I don't think that he should be banned for his views.

A constant anti-social behavior is not a view, though, but rather a problem of an individual that becomes an annoyance to other individuals.

Or:

Do you think that having no manners is a view?

[O. Van Bruce]

I don't think that he should be banned for his views.

A constant anti-social behavior is not a view, though, but rather a problem of an individual that becomes an annoyance to other individuals.

Or:

Do you think that having no manners is a view?

Yeah, he is annoying some times but it's not something most people can't understand coming from a person like him, who spends most of his time grinding shmups...

[Illyrian]

I don't think that he should be banned for his views.

A constant anti-social behavior is not a view, though, but rather a problem of an individual that becomes an annoyance to other individuals.

Or:

Do you think that having no manners is a view?

Yeah, he is annoying some times but it's not something most people can't understand coming from a person like him, who spends most of his time grinding shmups...

I used to spend between 5-13 hours a day playing guitar hero. It didn't make me an arsehole. I would have had to be an ardehole first.

That's a fairly important point to consider, I think