Paragons of Game Design

[Moniker]

So I like making lists. So sue me. Fuck you.

Curious about what the folks here consider the heights of game design. I'm not a game designer, but these struck me as being immortal examples of good game design.

Doom 2 - Perfect escalation of difficutly - independently interesting enemies
Super Metroid - Formed the genre of exploration-platformers - interesting and functional upgrades - well-told silent story
Zelda 1 - Remains the best example of sandbox gaming - perfectly marries action to RPG (through stores and boss upgrades)
Super Mario World - Narrowly beats SMB3 due to ideal platform physics - powerups that remain interesting throughout - system of non-linearity focused on action-choices instead of alternate paths
Diablo 2 - Infinite viable character builds - great (optional!!!) story - great and varied forms of combat - loot system that rewards without getting cluttered.
Brogue - Best game ever. Inquire within.

[Ruldra]

Sonic & Knuckles is the epitome of sidescroller platformers for me. Great variety of levels, excellent music, challenging, two different characters with different paths for each, and if you go out of your way to collect all emeralds, you gain access to a secret boss level. They did everything right in that game.

[Op Intensify]

I like SMB3's physics better than World's. More momentum and weight. World Mario feels like a mouse cursor.

Doom 2 actually has quite poor level progression and difficulty escalation. The levels are far too gimmicky, convoluted and chaotic for that. Your description fits Doom 1 much better.

How is Zelda 1 a sandbox game? Aside from bombable walls and dungeon entrances, there's nothing in the world you can shape and alter. It's just a nonlinear action RPG.

And Sonic & Knuckles? I thought everyone hated that game. The one time I played it, I got so bored by the mushroom level I quit. I'm not big on the Sonic series, but Sonic 3 & Knuckles is far more commonly cited as its echelon.

[Blackbird]

well-told silent story

This describes almost every Nintendo game =P. I think this is really one of Nintendo's trademarks as a company. They are really good at providing exposition and narrative without voiced dialog.

So let's see... some favorites...

Half Life - At the time, it was really revolutionary because it was the culminating point of major advances in several areas of game design all at once. Scripted narrative sequences, enemy behavioral AI, and physics seemed to leap forward suddenly; combining to make a game that seemed much more immersive and realistic compared to previous FPS games. System Shock 2 and Deus Ex would directly build upon Half Life's example, increasing the possibilities for interacting with the environment within the FPS genre (and then Halo came out and they all became boring cover shooters).

The Legend of Zelda: A Link to the Past - Maybe it didn't invent world exploring or having unique items to collect in every dungeon, but ALttP is one of those games where the whole adds up to greater than the sum of it's parts. It essentially took everything that was Zelda and perfected it; it's the archetypal Zelda game. The Dark World/alternate dimension mechanic made the game world seem unusually large for a game at that time. The necessity of switching between planes to reach certain locations made interacting with the map more interesting than simply walking from point A to B; it's like they foresaw one of the shortcomings of the world-roaming genre years in advance. Add in music that is astonishingly good and memorable (still one of Kondo's best soundtracks, imo) and one of the best happy endings of all time, and it's one of my all-time favorite games.

Heroes of Might and Magic II - This game succeeds in a lot of areas, but perhaps what I find the most uniquely endearing about it is it's art direction. When I think of the word "fantasy" and imagine everything that entails - orcs, elves, dwarves, dragons, and so on, this game is what I imagine. This game is the archetype of fantasy. By fantasy, I mean old school fantasy, before everything became about wearing increasingly garish and "epic" clown suits for armor. The style is quaint, but extremely colorful. The creatures have a very proud, iconic posture that could be drawn directly from medieval heraldry. The creatures have very active idle animations and the sound effects are replete with groans, roars, and hisses. The world has tons of strange and exotic locations, often with localized environmental noises when you approach them. In short, the game's artwork and sound makes me feel like the setting and creatures are very vibrant and alive, even without the assistance of realistic 3D graphics. I could go on about the depth of the turn-based strategy, but this is becoming a tl; dr post...

[Ruldra]

And Sonic & Knuckles? I thought everyone hated that game. The one time I played it, I got so bored by the mushroom level I quit. I'm not big on the Sonic series, but Sonic 3 & Knuckles is far more commonly cited as its echelon.

Personally I prefer S&K, but to each their own. These kind of lists are based on opinion more than anything else, so don't expect a list where everybody agrees with all entries.

[Moniker]

How is Zelda 1 a sandbox game? Aside from bombable walls and dungeon entrances, there's nothing in the world you can shape and alter. It's just a nonlinear action RPG.

Perhaps better described as "open world," in that dungeons, and therefore upgrades, can be played in most any order (IIRC, only the ladder and bow are absolutely required for any particular dungeon), and the overworld is almost totally available once you have bombs. Each screen is unique and promises hidden treasure.

Zelda 3 is great for its own reasons, but I don't think that before or since any game has captured the essence of exploring so well as Zelda 1. I've played it all the way through at least 3 times over the years, and each time it still feels fresh.

well-told silent story

This describes almost every Nintendo game =P. I think this is really one of Nintendo's trademarks as a company. They are really good at providing exposition and narrative without voiced dialog.

Indeed. I think the only non-nintendo games that come close are the Half-Life games, even though they aren't strictly speaking silent. Still, they excel in the area of showing rather than telling, and that's a rare quality indeed.

[Op Intensify]

Yeah, don't confuse "sandbox" with "open world" games. One doesn't necessarily include the other. GTA isn't even that much of a sandbox, because your environmental changes are never permanent. A real sandbox would be something like Dwarf Fortress or Minecraft.

The lack of diagonal movement is the sole reason I've never been able to get into Zelda 1.

[Randorama]

Black Tiger - Perfect blend of multi-directional platform, gory, dark fantasy and fast paced action.

Also, c'mon people, have you ever played an arcade game in your lives? Those lists are so consoley!

[Blackbird]

The arcades were mostly gone in the US by the time I was old enough to go to them T_T...

I do like arcade games, though.

[null1024]

And Sonic & Knuckles? I thought everyone hated that game. The one time I played it, I got so bored by the mushroom level I quit. I'm not big on the Sonic series, but Sonic 3 & Knuckles is far more commonly cited as its echelon.

The mushroom level is boring because it's the first level in Sonic and Knuckles, so it's thus silly easy [like any first level, even if it's the 7th in S3&K]. It also only takes 3-4 minutes to beat, both acts.

Sonic & Knuckles is just the second half of Sonic 3 & Knuckles, sans Tails and saving. It is literally the other half of Sonic 3, because releasing a 4MB game all at once would have been silly expensive.

But anyway, the combined S3&K is amazing. 3 characters with separate paths [not so much for Sonic, because Tails goes on Sonic's route, even though Tails gets some sections Sonic can't reach], brilliant graphics and sound [although, the S3 version of say, the miniboss theme and other music they changed for S3&K is better], etc. Best level design in the Sonic series, hands down.

[Ganelon]

I'll stick to listing games where I can quote particular, factually based design elements that the games excel at. I could mention games that I think are definitive of certain genres but they're more because of holistic, subjective feelings.

For example, I agree that Sonic 3 & Knuckles is a definitive 2D sidescroller but can't say that any particular design element is appealing. For me, the jumbo, intuitive, character-varying stages are a plus but it's more the colorful visuals, motivating music, diverse stage settings, interesting characters, smooth controls, and overall magical atmosphere that have me ranking the game among my favorites. And I don't personally consider the latter elements when I think of traditional game design. Of course, the topic is open to interpretation.

Super Street Fighter II Turbo - The ultimate Street Fighter II, father of the fighting genre. Every mechanic introduced in this installment has been ubiquitously copied by not only successive fighters but also games with fighting elements
Daggerfall - The ultimate sandbox RPG with the largest fully explorable offline world
Silhouette Mirage - Clever boss design. Most bosses are difficult when approached with brute force but all can be easily taken down with just strategy, requiring minimal reflexes and average timing
Image Fight - Clever stage design. Most position and pattern elements of the game are designed specifically to prey on common player tendencies and force you into making smarter decisions

[Vexorg]

Hmmm... Can't think of a lot of games I'd put on a list like this, but I'd definitely go with Super Metroid as well, adding to it the fact that its soundtrack is easily what I would consider to be the best one of the 16-bit era, mostly because it just fit the environment so well.

Some others I might say particularly stand out:

- Raiden DX: This is what I would consider to be the pinnacle of shooters before the Danmakus took over everything (I suppose a case for Raiden Fighters could be made too, but overall I think I prefer DX.)
- Minecraft: I don't consider this to be a perfect game or anything even resembling one, but it's the first game that really gotten everything together on the whole experience of building your own world and made it work. The combination of simplicity (just put down blocks wherever you want) and complexity (Redstone circuits, crafting, etc.) just makes for a game that always has something productive (well, as productive as you can get while playing games) to do.
- Rush 2049: I have yet find an arcade racer as flat-out enjoyable as this one to play. You really need the actual cabinets (preferably 4 of them linked) to get the full experience though.
- World of Warcraft: Again, your mileage may vary, but I doubt there will be an MMO that matches up to this one anytime soon. I haven't played this in years and have no intention of ever going back, but I still consider the first time I entered the city of Stormwind to be one of the most impressive moments I've had in gaming. The attention to detail in the world and the care that has gone into creating it shows, and I seriously doubt I could be as impressed with another MMOG as I was with WoW when I started playing it.
- Castlevania Aria of Sorrow: A bit of a controversial choice I'm sure (pretty much any Castlevania-related conversation on this board is potential flamebait anyway), but as enjoyable as Symphony of the Night is, it still feels unrefined at its core. I think AoS is really where the mechanics of the Metroidvania formula were refined to the point where everything worked well. Dawn of Sorrow is still enjoyable as well, but I feel that it just overdid things.
- Legend of Zelda Link's Awakening: Probably the best thing ever to be released on the original Gameboy/GBC. The same basic formula for a portable LoZ game held up pretty well through the two Oracle games and Minish Cap, but those ones still lack something intangible from Link's Awakening.

[Op Intensify]

I'm going to put Super Mario Sunshine out there as an unlikely paragon.

No other game, not even Super Mario 64, has had the same understanding of how to design quality 3D platforming stages. The tight focus of the "Secret" challenges, where your hover-capable backpack is taken away, really allowed the developers to strut their stuff. They're superior to the comparable Bowser Roads in Mario 64, which had too many failed concepts and unintended shortcuts.

As for Sunshine's main levels, it really helped that they were so "organic." Mario 64's world was a bit too abstract, partly due to the N64's limitations, and some levels (such as Lethal Lava Land) were just boring. But every main area in Sunshine really feels like a living, breathing functional town, amusement park, hotel, port, etc., and yet none of it is at the expense of solid level design. Everything's in place for the inhabitants to go about their daily lives when I'm not there. It's too bad the Galaxy games really fell flat in this regard.

[TrevHead (TVR)]

Hmm this is quite a hard one, because im a genre whore and not too knowledgable in one genre. Im sure folk will shoot holes in my suggestions.

Serious Sam 1 a good refinement of the monster room fps.

Eve Online: For the sandbox mmo, player freedom and meta gaming.

Diablo 2: best use of the m&k in a hack and slasher and loot.

Morrowind: Most rich & intresting open world with so much varity in such a small space (in a single player 3d game)

The New Zealand Story: to me embodies the 2d cute platformer, a platformer with flying and intresting level design, spike traps, when you lose yor lives you sometimes get to go to heaven (a level with lots of spikes) to earn a 2nd chance.

Atomic Runner: the best 2d fixed scrolling running game.

Guardian Heroes: fixed lane beat em up that allows for fighter like complexity

[JBC]

I'll probably be completely alone in this but I find the Genesis/MD version of Alien 3 to be almost perfect.

You have a very clearly defined set of rules in the game and as long as you adhere to them you won't even get hit, much less lose a life. But you have to be on your toes the entire time and never relax, because as soon as you do a xeno will come charging low from the side of the screen to trip you up.

There are only two things that keep the game from being perfect.
1. The Timer. The timer is only forgiving to those who have memorized the level layouts, and in some instances - unforgiving still. This means that every time you reach new heights in the game the timer becomes your greatest foe. Even if you've honed your patience and reflexes to efficiently deal with the aliens AND conserve your ammo it won't matter in the face of inevitable doom. It's a perfect example of "knowledge is power". You can't beat the game without having already memorized the layouts and prisoner locations. There's an example in the game early on where if you follow the path of least resistance to a T, and never make a mistake or get hung up, you'll still end up with only a few seconds to spare on the clock. It's a shame really.

2. Variety.

And that's it. I love everything else about the game and find it to be a perfect challenge. The music is wonderful and it plays like a refined Shinobi with guns.

Here's my favorite track, from stage 4. Great tune.

[CMoon]

Brogue - Best game ever. Inquire within.

Yes, talk a bit more about this.

[louisg]

I'd knock out Doom 2. It's good multiplayer, but I thought a lot of the single player levels were kinda random in the let's-paste-cyberdemons-and-spider-walkers-all-over-the-damn-place kind of way. Doom 1 is much better thought-out, has bosses which make sense, no cheapness whatsoever (anything that can really hurt you is decently telegraphed and/or visible to dodge), has shotguns available so you can continue after you die without a saved game... masterpiece. IMO, it's still the high water mark for FPS games, lack of cinematics aside.

Mario Galaxy 1 and 2 are pretty damn near perfect. Everyone seems to like Mario 64, and sure it was groundbreaking at the time, but it's got really haphazard level design, weird collision bugs, and strangely empty levels (almost like Mario Myst or something!). I know everyone was disappointed by Sunshine, but I feel like objectively speaking that it's a better game (that is, not taking into account that it's not a groundbreaker, and it's not as good *for its time*).

Some others:

- Crazy Taxi is a good example of coming up with an original design and flawlessly executing it

- I've gotta agree on Link to the Past. I can also say Super Metroid is one of the best non-linear action games around (though I still haven't really tried SOTN).

- Super Monkey Ball. At first, I was disappointed at the lack of 'gimmicks': things that launch your ball, or whatever. But then I realized that the subtle physics-based puzzles were pretty damn near perfect. It's good enough that it doesn't *need* gimmicks. How many games can say that? It's inspired of course by Marble Madness, and yet completely destroys that game in terms of level design, replayability, and manages to even feel more timeless.

- And speaking of Atari: Paperboy is near flawless. I can come back to that one again and again, and it never feels old.

- Metal Slug 1. I really feel like this is the best run 'n gun ever made. The sequels are good too, of course, but again-- they're more gimmicky and the levels aren't as well paced or thought-out.

- Is anything kart racer really better than the original Mario Kart? The game balance is perfect! Skill is the strongest determining factor in a race, but beginners can gain a foothold by using items well. MK64 is good too, but I thought the race courses were uninspired and many were tedious to drive on.

- OutRun. This game perfected the dodge-the-blobs racing style (games like Turbo, Lotus, or TX-1, not counting realistic racers!). I think the only thing that ever got improved on from 1986 onward was in the graphics department. Some of the later Sega racing games come close.

- Tetris and Ms. Pac-Man are games that not only helped define their genres, but haven't really been topped either (color-matching? oh come on! total recipe for randomness right there)

- Monkey Island. I can't name another graphical adventure game which has *fair* puzzles seamlessly woven into the story (as opposed to disconnected logic puzzles, or puzzles where you just end up clicking everywhere until something unexpected happens). It's all very coherent in a way that adventure games rarely are.

[Despatche]

Obviously I could go on about Ikaruga, DOJ, and all this other crap all day.

Super Mario World - Narrowly beats SMB3 due to ideal platform physics - powerups that remain interesting throughout - system of non-linearity focused on action-choices instead of alternate paths

I don't know. Overall physics (specifically jumping) "work" better in SMB3 (the "mouse cursor" comparison is terribly apt) and the spin jump is really only taken advantage of in ridiculous hacks. Then the powerups are pretty much the same as in SMB3, except the cape is a hundred times more broken (and not in the good way). Yoshi's kinda cool, though he's essentially a shield you have to chase after. Finally, I don't see how these "action-choices" are any different from "alternate paths" (especially those damned keys).

Doom 2 actually has quite poor level progression and difficulty escalation. The levels are far too gimmicky, convoluted and chaotic for that. Your description fits Doom 1 much better.

I know quite a few people that would say the exact opposite, but posit certain mods as being far better about it than Doom II. Not sure about Plutonia and TNT, though I've heard those considered "genius".

And Sonic & Knuckles? I thought everyone hated that game. The one time I played it, I got so bored by the mushroom level I quit. I'm not big on the Sonic series, but Sonic 3 & Knuckles is far more commonly cited as its echelon.

I don't know of anyone who hates S&K without hating [old] Sonic to start with. Sonic 3 is a bit of a mess, and Sonic 3 & Knuckles is just the two put together, so I would absolutely say that Sonic & Knuckles is a pinnacle and what is known as "Sonic 3 & Knuckles" is one of the stranger projects in video game history.

It essentially took everything that was Zelda and perfected it; it's the archetypal Zelda game.

The problem is that ALttP is no longer archetypal of anything except an era few care about outside of those who have experienced it (just like the first two Zeldas; LA escapes this, mostly because of the Oracles), so OoT is the archetype of Zelda; this isn't even semantics. Seriously, it's like saying DonPachi is the archetypal DonPachi game. Otherwise, you will not dare say ALttP's music can trump anything within OoT/MM (and I like what ALttP does).

[Sunshine is a good game and better made than 64, get over it]

you are a legend

I can also say Super Metroid is one of the best non-linear action games around (though I still haven't really tried SOTN).

What I never get about Metroid being non-linear is that it's not. You pretty much have to break something for the game to stop being linear, and rarely does the series bother to reward you (which would mean its completely intentional)

MK64 is good too, but I thought the race courses were uninspired and many were tedious to drive on.

I think you've never played SMK in your life. When you have to start numbering tracks based on tilesets, you're getting "uninspired". Every single track in MK64 is unique, save for a few, and those few try very hard to be completely different.

[xbl0x180]

I don't know about designing games, but I really liked Act Raiser and Goemon for the SFC/SNES. They felt like lengthy games for me, yet they weren't tedious - every moment was an enjoyable experience in terms of graphics, music, and challenge. I think Gunstar Heroes (for the MD/Genesis) and Ninja Gaiden (for the NES) may also fit that category

[Despatche]

I don't know about ActRaiser, even the developers found a reason to allow you to turn the simulation levels off.

[xbl0x180]

You mean play the game as a platformer only? Sure. I just don't have the patience to deal with a full-on Sim game, so those bits were just enough to be fun for me and then it was hacking and slashing for the rest.

It had some great music

[Blackbird]

Everyone seems to like Mario 64, and sure it was groundbreaking at the time, but it's got really haphazard level design, weird collision bugs, and strangely empty levels (almost like Mario Myst or something!).

You've gotta think of it in context. When Mario 64 came out, it was one of the most amazing 3D games yet conceived. It had unarguably the best, most fluid movement in the full 3 dimensions of any game that had been released up to that time. I seem to recall all the other 3D games before it being either extremely clunky to control (Descent) or limiting movement in some way (2.5D hybrid games, etc.) I remembered playing a demo of it and being completely blown away by the sensation of free movement.

Compare Mario 64 to Resident Evil, released the same year. Look how much more cumbersome RE's controls were; that's what most people thought of when they thought of 3D movement back then (although in RE's case, it didn't kill the game because it made the zombies more threatening/frightening).

Regarding OoT vs ALttP: Everything OoT does is just refinements of things established and largely perfected by ALttP. OoT is just ALttP in 3D. Okay, so that's kind of a big deal, but ALttP should get a fair share of the credit for breaking ground. A lot of OoT's soundtrack is remixed/refined from ALttP as well. You know what, I'm just going to shut up now, because complaining about either game is like complaining about cake when the other is ice cream; who the hell cares, you've got cake and ice cream and they're both delicious! The Zelda series has a lot of amazing games in it, really.

[Moniker]

I'd knock out Doom 2. It's good multiplayer, but I thought a lot of the single player levels were kinda random in the let's-paste-cyberdemons-and-spider-walkers-all-over-the-damn-place kind of way. Doom 1 is much better thought-out [...]

Doom II vs Doom - I guess I haven't spent enough time with Doom 1, but Doom 2 on higher difficulties is almost like a puzzle game. Given how much ammo you have in chaingun and rocket launcher, how do you handle the Hell Baron around the corner? Shoot 'n scoot with a weaker weapon, or go all out and hope you have enough left over for the rest of the level. In any case, I suppose we can all agree that Doom in general (Doom 3 optional) is pretty amazing.

SMB3 vs SMW - I guess I don't quite understand complaints about the lack of inertia in SMW when in shmups it's viewed as a clear impediment to gameplay. Don't get me wrong, I love SMB3 more than I'll likely love my future children, but there's a big barrier b/w input and onscreen movement. Lots of little annoyances too, like bouncing off note blocks, and secrets that can't be figured out except via spoilers. Perhaps indeed I've played too many SMW hacks, but I still can't think of a single thing I dislike about SMW. Maybe it's a bit too easy, but certainly not all that harder than SMB3.

Arcade vs. Console - TBH, I'm not really good enough at most arcade games to include it on my list. The Ghosts 'n Goblins series is great, but I can't say I'd put it above Castlevania. Metal Slug is great, but Contra wins out for certain. As much as I like Rygar, Tiger Road, &c, I don't think I could put any of them above Bionic Commando. FTGs and STGs are another realm, of course.

[louisg]

I think you've never played SMK in your life. When you have to start numbering tracks based on tilesets, you're getting "uninspired". Every single track in MK64 is unique, save for a few, and those few try very hard to be completely different.

I've actually played a lot of both, MK64 typically competitively and SMK typically single-player. I'm sure it's just down to preference, but when I think of MK64 levels like the much-too-long Wario indoor track or the misty mountain, I don't want to play it. In my mind, SMK didn't have any bummer tracks-- it was all a pretty consistently high quality (though simpler, so of course there was a little less to screw up).

The problem is that ALttP is no longer archetypal of anything except an era few care about outside of those who have experienced it (just like the first two Zeldas; LA escapes this, mostly because of the Oracles), so OoT is the archetype of Zelda; this isn't even semantics. Seriously, it's like saying DonPachi is the archetypal DonPachi game. Otherwise, you will not dare say ALttP's music can trump anything within OoT/MM (and I like what ALttP does).

If nobody cared about it, then why would they have remade that style of game several times for their portable systems? And it seems pretty much typical Zelda to me-- even the 3d Zeldas play pretty similarly, camera angle aside. It also seems like I see the duality of light/dark is referenced a lot in reviews of other games, and of course later Zelda games like Minish Cap.

You've gotta think of it in context. When Mario 64 came out, it was one of the most amazing 3D games yet conceived. It had unarguably the best, most fluid movement in the full 3 dimensions of any game that had been released up to that time. I seem to recall all the other 3D games before it being either extremely clunky to control (Descent) or limiting movement in some way (2.5D hybrid games, etc.) I remembered playing a demo of it and being completely blown away by the sensation of free movement.

No argument there. I'd be lying if I said I didn't have to pick my jaw up from off the floor when I first saw it. It was definitely a breakthrough. But, playing it, I became disinterested fairly quickly, even at the time (though, again, that is somewhat subjective-- I know people who really dig the open worlds of M64).

BTW you should try Descent with a flightstick (with hat switch).

What I never get about Metroid being non-linear is that it's not. You pretty much have to break something for the game to stop being linear, and rarely does the series bother to reward you (which would mean its completely intentional)

It's true. It's not a wide-open game. It's mostly just that the player has to discover where to go. So, it's not non-linear, but it does have an exploration component to it that a lot of 2d action/adventures lack.

[Despatche]

If nobody cared about it, then why would they have remade that style of game several times for their portable systems? And it seems pretty much typical Zelda to me-- even the 3d Zeldas play pretty similarly, camera angle aside. It also seems like I see the duality of light/dark is referenced a lot in reviews of other games, and of course later Zelda games like Minish Cap.

Most of those portables have very little to do with ALttP or even LA/Oracles. No, OoT and onward (besides the Oracles) really don't play anything like LA and before. If this makes any sense: the Oracles are anomalies, everything after the Oracles looks back to OoT for advice, and OoT was an attempt to make ALttP look "old".

[Marc]

In my eyes Super Mario Kart exhibits some of the most pure design I've ever seen in an a videogame. Every racer is different, but most equally useful. Every weapon has a purpose, but still takes some skill to use - even the red shell. The lap times ensure that multiplayer is always close, without shocking rubber banding, and every corner feels as though it's placed for a reason. In comparison, MK64 was a sprawling, unfocussed mess with tedious courses and too much emphasis on weapons, though the handling, different from the original as it was, felt equally sublime.

[stryc9]

Black Tiger - Perfect blend of multi-directional platform, gory, dark fantasy and fast paced action.

Ha ha, this. Black Tiger is one of my favourite 80's arcade games, stunningly executed with polished graphics and animation, plus a classic soundtrack.

Completely underrated, while stuff like Strider gets put on a pedestal

You have good taste dude.

[Skykid]

Majora's Mask obviously. Too much unsung genius, too high-brow for the gaming rabble.

[Gus]

F-Zero GX>>>>>>>>>>>any non-shmup ever. Fact.

[Marc]

I pretty much agree with that statement. Hell, GX-HD alone would sell the WiiU to me.