XRGB-mini Framemeister

[Fudoh]

The Mini has resizing options for both the horizontal and vertical screen size, but they're a bit buggy as of now with introducing a white line on the edge when making the size smaller and a tendency to lose sync when making the picture bigger.

UMSA: for VGA you need a sync converter from RGBHV to RGBs. On paper the UMSA does this, but you have to check with Jochen if the UMSA can handle 31khz output at all - since it was designed for 15khz.

[Konsolkongen]

It would be cool if they could add sync-on-green support on the RGB input. Then we could get 480p from the PS2 using a RGB cable

[Fudoh]

Well, but if you add a sync converter anyway, then it doesn't really matter, as RGBHV and RGsB will both be converted to RGBs.

[Konsolkongen]

Yeah but then I would have to add a sync-converter to my setup, and it's just a mess behind my Extron RGBHV matrix If they add support for RGsB then I won't have to change anything

[Fudoh]

Don't you have an interface in there already ? Also how would you connect the DC in this case ?

[Konsolkongen]

Nope only the Extron Matrix. I don't plan to connect the Dreamcast to the Mini.

[Konsolkongen]

Scanlines on the Neo Geo MVS is messed up in the new firmware. At two locations, two of the scanlines are kinda merged together to form one thicker (a super scanline if you will...) and it looks horrible. Much more noticeable in 480p output. Here is a shot of this bug:


Larger picture of the whole screen here:
http://i40.photobucket.com/albums/e236/ ... 0_0858.jpg

MegaDrive, Saturn and SNES all look fine of course.

PAL support (although a little buggy) is a very nice touch, but for now I'm going back to the old 1.05 firmware again.

[chadti99]

Guys, quick update, the US NeoGeo AES units having sync issues are actually both first generation boards with serials <15,000. I was looking at one upside down and thought it read 110,000 when it was actually an 11,000 serial unit, lol.

Anyway, I looked at the Japanese unit again this morning, the one without the sync issue, and noticed that RGB wasn't quite as sharp as the lower serial US units I had, a real bummer. The Japanese AES is a 3-5 board revision with a ~97,000 serial. There is some color bleeding/ghosting of images to the right, most noticeable on text. Not sure if the bypass mod or trace cut mod would help with this.

Has anyone tried the latest firmware with an AES unit that is having sync issues? I'm tempted to try it but not if I lose english menus, lol.

[Fudoh]

With a little mod you should be able to bring the late japanese AES to a RGB quality level so it matches your early US ones. Certainly easier this way than fiddling with sync signals on the US ones.

[chadti99]

With a little mod you should be able to bring the late japanese AES to a RGB quality level so it matches your early US ones. Certainly easier this way than fiddling with sync signals on the US ones.

I just bypassed the RGB caps as mentioned here http://www.jamma-nation-x.com/jammax/tu ... #aesbypass picture is perfect now!

Thanks everyone for the help!


-Chad

[TurboCro]

With a little mod you should be able to bring the late japanese AES to a RGB quality level so it matches your early US ones. Certainly easier this way than fiddling with sync signals on the US ones.

I just bypassed the RGB caps as mentioned here http://www.jamma-nation-x.com/jammax/tu ... #aesbypass picture is perfect now!

Thanks everyone for the help!


-Chad

Great news. Enjoy!

[Fudoh]

Did some testing of the processing lags of various processors incl. the Mini. The Mini was tested with 480p output to a HDFury to a Sony PGM CRT monitor. Source was a Sega Nomad with Artemio's 240p test suite. The stock display of the Nomad lags with a little less than 8ms (tested against a 15khz CRT).

The results were 32ms with V-Sync off and 24ms with V-Sync on.

I would appreciate if some more people did a simple lag test, e.g. by splitting the signal before the Mini and testing a 15khz CRT against a LCD with a know input lag.

[fagin]

Did some testing of the processing lags of various processors incl. the Mini. The Mini was tested with 480p output to a HDFury to a Sony PGM CRT monitor. Source was a Sega Nomad with Artemio's 240p test suite. The stock display of the Nomad lags with a little less than 8ms (tested against a 15khz CRT).

The results were 32ms with V-Sync off and 24ms with V-Sync on.

I would appreciate if some more people did a simple lag test, e.g. by splitting the signal before the Mini and testing a 15khz CRT against a LCD with a know input lag.

Mmmmm unless I'm reading that wrong, it's not as spectacular as previously envisaged then - slower than the XRGB range?

[BuckoA51]

Heavens, have Micomsoft been lying to us? I thought their literature claimed it was super low-lag?

[Fudoh]

Hard to comment and so many possible sources of errors. I did the same test with a XRGB-3 in B1 (some while ago) and it averages to about 2ms. B0 measures with about 2 frames average delay. Also the MD2 (same hardware the Nomad) is known for it's weird sync and refresh, so another possible reason. When I did the testing, the full status page said "1.04ms".

That's why I would encourage more people to do this simple test...

[Artemio]

The 240p suite version 1.10e, which has the lag test, is available at the page now:

http://code.google.com/p/240p-test-suite/downloads/list

As posted before, here are my results in my setup.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc ... ENQbnd6OGc

I measured the lag of my modded Nomad screen against an arcade CRT via RGB, resulting in 1 frame of lag.

[fagin]

When I did the testing, the full status page said "1.04ms".

Did you manage to quantify your previous "suggestion" (many pages back) that the status screen was, perhaps shall we say, "bullshitting"?

It would be interesting for sure to find out the accuracy (especially with what you have just said).

[Artemio]

When I did the testing, the full status page said "1.04ms".

Did you manage to quantify your previous "suggestion" (many pages back) that the status screen was, perhaps shall we say, "bullshitting"?

It would be interesting for sure to find out the accuracy (especially with what you have just said).

You need to be able to remove the display lag. In my case for example, I know the mini has less than 2 frames lag for sure. But more measurements are needed.

[Fudoh]

Did you manage to quantify your previous "suggestion" (many pages back) that the status screen was, perhaps shall we say, "bullshitting"?

my doubt back then was (and still is) based on my general understanding (and experience) on how 480i deinterlacing works and you need to buffer (at least) one field in order to do any pixel-adaptive deinterlacing, which is what the Mini does on 480i material (while still showing an ultra-low delay on the status page).

I know the mini has less than 2 frames lag for sure. But more measurements are needed.

true, but right now it looks like 1.5 frames - at least with a Mega Drive as the source. I have done various test configurations with the XRGB-3, the Mini, Vigatec, VP30 and others on a CRT, a LCD without input lag and my Sony.

PS: all tests done assuming that the HDF3 has ZERO lag.

[Seraphic]

Why do the new 1.05 and 1.06 firmware still display the menu in Japanese even if you set to English and reset unit?

Also, I having an issue and I wanted to get some thoughts. The display from my mini seems to have really bad aliasing and/or over sharpness even though sharpness is set to 0 (think it is aliasing). This issue appeared when I was trying to upgrade from 1.04e to 1.05 and kept having issues and had to keep unplugging the unit over and over and kept trying to flash firmwares.

[Konsolkongen]

Why do the new 1.05 and 1.06 firmware still display the menu in Japanese even if you set to English and reset unit?

1.05 doesn't have this bug. You need to manually switch the language to ENG in the SPECIAL menu.

Also, I having an issue and I wanted to get some thoughts. The display from my mini seems to have really bad aliasing and/or over sharpness even though sharpness is set to 0 (think it is aliasing). This issue appeared when I was trying to upgrade from 1.04e to 1.05 and kept having issues and had to keep unplugging the unit over and over and kept trying to flash firmwares.

I'm not sure what you mean. Are you referring to strange jaggies when using 480i/p? If that's the case then all you need to do is change the V-Scaler to 5.

[Seraphic]

Even in 1.06, after setting to ENG in the menu and then turning unit off and on, in was still in Japanese.

Well, yes, kind of a guess. Edges are really bad which is why I thought it was aliasing. The game is 240p and V-Scaler 5 doesn't help. It didn't look this why before I had problems updating to 1.05.

[Konsolkongen]

Even in 1.06, after setting to ENG in the menu and then turning unit off and on, in was still in Japanese.

You mean even in 1.05 you can't get the menu's in english, right?

Well, yes, kind of a guess. Edges are really bad which is why I thought it was aliasing. The game is 240p and V-Scaler 5 doesn't help. It didn't look this why before I had problems updating to 1.05.

I'm not following you, sorry. Can you take some pictures that show this problem?

[Artemio]

I know the mini has less than 2 frames lag for sure. But more measurements are needed.

true, but right now it looks like 1.5 frames - at least with a Mega Drive as the source. I have done various test configurations with the XRGB-3, the Mini, Vigatec, VP30 and others on a CRT, a LCD without input lag and my Sony.

We have other data though, and my two frames lag incude a DVDO EDGE (it was the genesis, mini, edge, hdmi to sdi with zero lag, and then the HD SDI CRT).

We do know that the XRGB-3 in B1 is zero frames as well.

[grahf]

I found a Japanese website that hosts the same frame counter program that Micromsoft was using at their shows.

Here is the link:
http://bygzam.seesaa.net/article/110314791.html

This is what I'm talking about:

[Fudoh]

and my two frames lag include a DVDO EDGE (it was the genesis, mini, edge, hdmi to sdi with zero lag, and then the HD SDI CRT).

isn't that about the same result as mine ? I got ~ 24ms delay, if you add the passthrough delay of the Edge in Gamemade (6-10ms) you end up with about 2 frames, right ?

We do know that the XRGB-3 in B1 is zero frames as well.

pretty much. I got 0 frames in 90% of the cases. I was just averaging to 2ms because of a few digicam shots showing a small delay.

I found a Japanese website that hosts the same frame counter program that Micromsoft was using at their shows.

thanks! But HDMI passthrough is one thing while processing a 15khz input is another, isn't it ?

[grahf]

thanks! But HDMI passthrough is one thing while processing a 15khz input is another, isn't it ?

I'm not talking about passthrough. By setting the PC output to a low resolution, you can process it. I tested HDMI from my PC at 800x600 and 640x480, and you can apply processing to it. By using a dual-head video card, and connecting the second mirrored display directly to a monitor, this will allow you to see the exact processing delay.

It's possible that the processing difference might be different at different refresh rates, isn't it? I don't think it's possible to set a PC to 15khz... However, you could just record a video of this program running for a few minutes, and convert it to a video that would play on some classic console. The same principle would apply. Just use a splitter on the output, one going through the meister and the other directly to a display.

[BuckoA51]

I wouldn't use a dual head card for lag testing. In my experience the two outputs are not perfectly synced. You're way better off with some sort of VGA splitter.

[Fudoh]

By setting the PC output to a low resolution, you can process it.

I know, but it's hardly the scaling that takes time on any processor. It's the initial processing from 15khz to 31khz.

It's possible that the processing difference might be different at different refresh rates, isn't it?

of course, it's very well possible.

I don't think it's possible to set a PC to 15khz...

you can set the VGA output for 15khz using Soft15khz and a proper cable. It's being used for MAME cabs all the time. But eventually it would be same as using Artemio's 240p test suite - just on another hardware.

However, you could just record a video of this program running for a few minutes, and convert it to a video that would play on some classic console.

I don't know what exactly you're thinking of. Video DVD on a PS2 ?

The same principle would apply. Just use a splitter on the output, one going through the meister and the other directly to a display.

you don't even have to do a video. Just use a game with a proper timer display (e.g. a racing game with ms display). The only requirement is that it's a real 60fps game.

[grahf]

I know, but it's hardly the scaling that takes time on any processor. It's the initial processing from 15khz to 31khz.

I understand, but by setting the resolution low, it no longer is Passthrough, but lets you apply processing (scanlines, etc).

I don't know what exactly you're thinking of. Video DVD on a PS2 ?

If that's possible to display at 15khz, then yes. I'm not really sure about what DVD display at though...

you don't even have to do a video. Just use a game with a proper timer display (e.g. a racing game with ms display). The only requirement is that it's a real 60fps game.

Is this what people are doing now to measure frame delay? It should be a simple matter of splitting the signal and using two monitors.