XRGB-mini Framemeister

[Fudoh]

The grey Gefen units can't tell 720x480 from 640x480, which actually was the best thing about the blue/black units.

I connect my DC through a Kramer FC-14. That's a VGA to Component transcoder. It's a more classic approach and it also allows a wider range of scanline options on the Mini (compared to going HDMI before the Mini). With analogue transcoding you also don't run into the 720x480 vs 640x480 issues and you can pick up good transcoders quite cheap. The Lenkeng transcoders are $49 new and 2nd hand Audio Authority transcoders are available at the same price.

[Konsolkongen]

My Gefen is gray. It can distinguish between 720x480p and 640x480p.

[Fudoh]

Interesting, I recently had a v4.9 (grey) one here and fed 480p from a PS2 (transcoded to VGA first) and it showed as 640x480 no matter what I tried.

[SGGG2]

My gray until was having resolution issues with Planet Harriers until I accidentally hit 'auto'. Works fine now.

[Thjodbjorn]

HOLY CRAP.

Okay, I thought it might be nice to try to get some MAME going through this via my Extron Emotia. Either the VGA or S-Video cable was messed up or something, because I was getting a weird "smear" effect through the mini (I had used my Saturn through s-Video no prob. I'll have to double check and make sure I didn't mess anything up).

Disappointed, I decided to try to hook up the PC through HDMI.

Sure enough, I was getting a 1080p signal downscaled to 720p, which is what my Mini is normally set at. I then set the resolution to 640 by 480 at 59 mhz. And I am able to run this **** in Meister mode, with scanlines that look pretty flipping great. I will want to test out the 360 and PS3 as well, but it certainly looks like 480p gets you scanlines through the HDMI inputs. I'm running Street Fighter Alpha 2 for the demo mode right now, and it just looks slick.

This is a much better result than I was initially going for with the emotia.

I'll try to post photos later. I've not done that here before. Anything I need to keep in mind when posting them?

Edit: My PC recognizes the mini as an audio output option.

Double Edit: Xbox 360 through HDMI also gets you scanlines when set to 480p.

[Thjodbjorn]

Using SFIII:TS as a reference on Dreamcast>s-video, pc>hdmi and 360>hdmi, the 480p sources definitely did not look as sharp as the DC.

I cannot get my PC to do anything power than 640x480, as soft15khz won't work with my windows 7 machine.

Would an arcadevga to dvi/hdmi converter to the mini work? Can I have two video cards installed in one PC, and somehow switch between them depending on what I need to do?

Or is there something like soft25khz that works over HDMI on windows 7?

[Fudoh]

Scanlines on HD sources seem to work as long as you use some kind of scaling. 480p > 720p for example. If you input 480p and output 480p or 720p/720p it won't work.

S-Video from the Emotia isn't exactly the benchmark. RGBs from the BNCs should look pretty great.

ArcadeVGA + DVI/HDMI doesn't work (no 15khz support via HDMI), but ArcadeVGA to RGB Scart works. Two graphics cards in one PC are ok, but fullscreen apps usually start on the primary card.

The reason why your PC sources don't look as a sharp (compared to an oversharpened s-video DC image) is probably because you allow your emu to scale to 480 lines. Remember that (for example) CPS3 has 224 lines, so you have to make absolutely sure that your emu output 448 lines with the remaining 32 lines being filled up with black. This way you get a much sharper picture and also a perfect fit for any scanline overlay. And by the way: the same's true for using an Emotia.

[Thjodbjorn]

Is there a way to tell shmupmame to run a game at twice its original resolution?

And I do understand that emotia in s-video wouldn't be great. But I never had that smearing problem (the right 8th of the screen looked literally "smeared", as if the pixel was stretched horizontally for some time, if that makes sense). And the mini doesn't have an RGBs input, so I'm not sure how to connect the way. I'll see if I can add a custom resolution in windows that doubles SFIII's resolution, though. But that method means I'd have to add one for reach game's resolution, right?

Edit: In shmupmame 2.2, if I use direct draw as opposed to direct 3d, should I be using bitmap prescaling set to 2, and "stretch using hardware"? That definitely doesn't take all 480 lines. But it still is not looking as sharp as the DC to the mini through S-video, and running SF3 in low-res mode.

If there's any dummy tips you can give me, don't be afraid to speak to me as if I am a child.

[Fudoh]

And the mini doesn't have an RGBs input, so I'm not sure how to connect the way.

to the front MiniDin8 like every other 15khz RGBs source.

Edit: In shmupmame 2.2, if I use direct draw as opposed to direct 3d, should I be using bitmap prescaling set to 2, and "stretch using hardware"? That definitely doesn't take all 480 lines. But it still is not looking as sharp as the DC to the mini through S-video, and running SF3 in low-res mode.

it's been too long since I tried that on MAME, but I never had a problem with getting razorsharp linedoubled output.

[Thjodbjorn]

I tried it with Last Blade 2 this morning, which I also have on the DC. The results seemed a lot closer to me with this game than with SFIII. If I have it in standard mode, it's hard for me to tell the games apart, but the DC version definitely seems to have higher contrast/saturation. So I am beginning to think that is what is making me think the meister mode is less sharp on the PC, rather than an actual difference in resolution.

The first two are in MAME through HDMI, with the PC resolution set to 480p, and my best attempt at just doubling the game resolution:





The next two are the DC through S-Video:

[Zapf]

edit: wait fudoh already said this

[Hamburglar]

The review on the XRGB Mini says the menu is in English but mine is completely in Japanese. Can someone give me a quick guide on what to do to change it to English? I've gone through every menu and sub menu I could find.

Also, my serial number was only 66 which is odd because I just ordered it 2 weeks ago.

[Fudoh]

Just use the FW with the "e" extension. It's preset to english.

The serials aren't consecutive.

[Thjodbjorn]

If I can manage to update the firmware and set it to English, I have every confidence you will get it sorted out, too.

I can't imagine trying to make sense of it in Japanese.

[SaaayGaaa]

Hi all,

Firstly, sorry to hit you with a slew of fairly noob-ish questions... I've been trying to piece this all together through my own research, but I just need to get a few things straight in my head and was hoping that someone here could confirm what I 'think' I've learnt?

Late last year I was looking at picking up an XRGB-3, but the mini was looking like it was right around the corner so I decided to hold off for a bit. One of the first things I noticed when the mini got released was its lack of PAL 50Hz support. I have quite a few systems and am hoping that someone could confirm that I'm on the right path for full compatibility with the mini.

First up, I currently have a PAL NES which I'm considering swapping for a 60Hz NTSC unit. I have been looking around for a Playchoice 10 / Vs board / Famicom Titler etc to provide me with a PPU for an RGB mod. I'm not having much luck... If I can't switch over to RGB on the NES, is it really worth swapping the console? Will the mini noticeably improve the composite picture? Also, is there any reason that a NES PowerPak cart wouldn't play nicely with the mini?

I have a PAL single PPU SNES, PAL twin chip SNES and an NTSC Super Famicom (haven't investigated its internals yet). I'm presuming the Super Famicom is generally the unit to use, but from what I gather, there are some issues with the SNES and the mini? For now I'll keep the PAL units in case the NTSC model doesn't work properly and I end up needing to 60hz mod the PAL units. Good idea? Likewise, are there issues with using an Everdrive with the mini? I'm sure that I read somewhere that it possibly is a problem?

I have both PAL and NTSC (Japanese) Saturns. Presumably my NTSC Saturn will be the weapon of choice here, but I should keep the other one on hand anyway as there seems to be issues with Saturns as well? I can mod it for 60hz etc if need be.

My PS1 and PS2 are both PAL, but I can install mod chips to allow NTSC games to be played. These systems determine 60Hz output from the software correct?

My Megadrive is PAL, but has a 60Hz / language mod. I use an Everdrive with my MD. Again, I believe that this might cause issues?

My NTSC Dreamcast runs via a VGA box. I need to transcode this to component for the mini, correct?

My other consoles (PCE Duo-R, NTSC Gamecube, NTSC N64, NTSC Atari Jaguar, NEO GEO MVS) should all be fine. I'll be carrying out RGB mods on the PCE Duo-R etc...

I guess my final question is with regard to PAL conversions. The issue with the mini is with regard to 50Hz, correct? PAL 60 should not be an issue. If I am playing NTSC games on a region free PAL 60 system, the mini will function just as if I had a NTSC console hooked up to it?

Once again, sorry for the big post full of questions. The mini is quite expensive and I just want to be sure that I understand where I am at with all of this. Any responses greatly appreciated.

Thanks!

[Shining]

Do you guys know if the SEGA Power Base Converter(Master System games on Genesis) will work with the Mini if the Genesis is hooked up via a RGB scart cable?

[Konsolkongen]

It sure does I use my Master System Converter II on my Japanese MegaDrive 1 with no problems what so ever. It might not work without C.sync though, haven't tried.

Master System Converter II did NOT work at all on the XRGB-3

[Rock Man]

So my pal brought over his Frammeister, the machine was compatible with 15 KHz material like the Genesis, but displayed 360 poorly. We couldn't even get scanlines in Meister Mode and we tried every video setting we could think of on both units. =( Oddly enough, we used the FM on his 360 at his place, and guess what? It worked. I was thinking about getting myself the FM but now I'm unsure, from the looks of things my TV translates a shoddy output from the XRGB-Mini if Xbox 360 is connected.

Is the Mini said to reject Plasma TV's when using sources capable of outting a significantly higher resolution i.e. X360? My friends TV is an LCD and his played 360 games like DOA 4 and KOF XIII in 720p/1080p with scanlines just fine. I wonder if the Frame Meister can't handle Plasma's, perhaps they're allergic to 32-inch VIZIO Plasma's capable of outputting 1080p?

[Shining]

It sure does I use my Master System Converter II on my Japanese MegaDrive 1 with no problems what so ever. It might not work without C.sync though, haven't tried.

Master System Converter II did NOT work at all on the XRGB-3

Thats awesome! Now for some trickier questions:

Will the European version of the Power Base Converter work on a US Genesis model 1?
Will PAL Master System games run on this setup, and will they be running at 60hz?

[Konsolkongen]

Yes and yes

My Master System Converter is EU and it works regardless of region settings on the MegaDrive. All SMS games I have tried so far ran fine in 60Hz.

[Thjodbjorn]

Is the Mini said to reject Plasma TV's when using sources capable of outting a significantly higher resolution i.e. X360? My friends TV is an LCD and his played 360 games like DOA 4 and KOF XIII in 720p/1080p with scanlines just fine. I wonder if the Frame Meister can't handle Plasma's, perhaps they're allergic to 32-inch VIZIO Plasma's capable of outputting 1080p?

I have fed 720p and 1080p signals into my plasma through the mini just fine. Meister mode doesn't seem to produce scanlines on anything above 600x800 (though those look awful).

[Rock Man]

Is the Mini said to reject Plasma TV's when using sources capable of outting a significantly higher resolution i.e. X360? My friends TV is an LCD and his played 360 games like DOA 4 and KOF XIII in 720p/1080p with scanlines just fine. I wonder if the Frame Meister can't handle Plasma's, perhaps they're allergic to 32-inch VIZIO Plasma's capable of outputting 1080p?

I have fed 720p and 1080p signals into my plasma through the mini just fine. Meister mode doesn't seem to produce scanlines on anything above 600x800 (though those look awful).

I see, this is useful intel thanks. Btw how did it look on your TV does yours do said resolution? The Frame Meister did project from my 360 however it did nothing good to the quality, if anything made it blurrier and more reddish than usual. But the Frame Meister handled my friends LCD just fine with scanlines and every thing. Then again his TV only goes up to 720p and has a bunch of PC resolutions. Would this mean it really depends on the display? Or perhaps a combination of the display and device you're using, in my case Frame Meister > Xbox 360 > 1080p TV? If so that's crazy so if I were to get a Frame Meister I'd have to use it on those 600x800 or below systems. Doesn't the original XBOX and PS2 have resolutions above that? Because this means it can't work on those either.

[Fudoh]

I have a hard time following the discussion.

Framemeister mode works on 240p, 480i, 480p and 720p resolutions. On 480p and 720p the output resolution of the Mini has to be higher than the input resolution (meaning 720p or higher for 480p sources and 1080p for 720p sources). On 720p sources you get 360 scanlines (one for every second line).

On all sources expect 240p, so also on 480p and 720p you have to manually tune the combination of vertical/horizontal scaling and sharpness. With a little work the results look very good, but with the basic settings they can look disappointing.

Your display's scaling IS IMPORTANT as along as any scaling is performed AFTER the Mini. Since Framemeister mode looks ugly on 240p sources with 1080p output, 720p is the best output option for those, but then again your display has to handle the scaling from 720p to 1080p.

[Thjodbjorn]

When I first hooked up my PC to the mini, it was set to 1080p, and looked weird, because I have the mini set to 720p. Once I changed the resolution to 720p, it seemed fine. Same with the 360. Of course, I changed them again to 480p in order to get scanlines.

Both of those were via HDMI. It looks decent, though not as sharp to me as 240p upscaled through either the PS2 or Wii (component to d-terminal), the Saturn through RGB, or the DC through s-video. 480i and 480p look decent upscaled through it, just not nearly as impressive to me as 240p

I am using a 1080p Samsung 51" plasma.

I hope that info helps, as I am afraid I have difficulty understanding your question.

[Thjodbjorn]

"On all sources expect 240p, so also on 480p and 720p you have to manually tune the combination of vertical/horizontal scaling and sharpness. With a little work the results look very good, but with the basic settings they can look disappointing."

I found that 480p from my PC looked much better with sharpness turned on to 1. I haven't messed around with changing the scaling settings yet.

[Fudoh]

I found that 480p from my PC looked much better with sharpness turned on to 1

that's very well possible, since you're talking about upscaled 240p material (MAME), right ? On true 480p material sharpness 1 is quite destructive already, so I don't use it.

[Thjodbjorn]

I found that 480p from my PC looked much better with sharpness turned on to 1

that's very well possible, since you're talking about upscaled 240p material (MAME), right ? On true 480p material sharpness 1 is quite destructive already, so I don't use it.

Yeah. I was using Daioujou in MAME, trying to get it to look as good as it does on the PS2. That's VERY helpful to know regarding sharpness, thanks!

[Rock Man]

I have a hard time following the discussion.

Framemeister mode works on 240p, 480i, 480p and 720p resolutions. On 480p and 720p the output resolution of the Mini has to be higher than the input resolution (meaning 720p or higher for 480p sources and 1080p for 720p sources). On 720p sources you get 360 scanlines (one for every second line).

On all sources expect 240p, so also on 480p and 720p you have to manually tune the combination of vertical/horizontal scaling and sharpness. With a little work the results look very good, but with the basic settings they can look disappointing.

Your display's scaling IS IMPORTANT as along as any scaling is performed AFTER the Mini. Since Framemeister mode looks ugly on 240p sources with 1080p output, 720p is the best output option for those, but then again your display has to handle the scaling from 720p to 1080p.

Thanks Fudoh I'll let my friend know.

[Hamburglar]

Just use the FW with the "e" extension. It's preset to english.

Thanks. I will put the "e" firmware on it, but how do I navigate the Japanese menus to do so?

[Fudoh]

you don't.

Put the FW folder on the Micro SD card on your PC. Unplug the PSU from the Mini. Insert the Micro SD card. Plug in the PSU again. The Mini will automatically do the update. Reset the FW afterwards.