"This shmup is hard!" "WTF, that's the easiest game ever!"

[BuckoA51]

In all my many years gaming I think the only game I came close to playing really, really well was Outrun 2. Something about that game hooked me from the get-go and, unlike most games I didn't get bored after a few hours post-completion. I was playing said game constantly for weeks, even daydreaming about it at work. I remember the Xbox live rooms I got to know some of the other players personally and we'd discuss strategy throughout constant replays. During this time I got within the top 10 on some courses (only to be knocked down again of course, after people watched my replays and copied what I did).

The point I'm trying to make is that although I often feel that I suck at shmups in actual fact I just lack the dedication to get really good. The last shmup I played really seriously has to be Deathsmiles, I got so I could get to the final dragon on 1 credit, but it always kicked my butt. If you think you're bad, get a normal person to watch you do something like this and watch their reaction

Anyway, you don't /have/ to be a dedicated player to enjoy the raw, pure thrills of shmupping, and even if you are good, remember the somec*nt law... "no matter how good you get, there's always somec*nt better than you".

[Marc]

This thread has shown, in the space of two posts, how arrogant and unfriendly this board can be to anyone that doesn't seem to have 'getting better at Shmups' as a main goal in life, and how excellent, relaxed and friendly it can be.

Myself, I just think there are some folk that consider their viewpoint so factually correct that they seem to take massive issue with anyone that disagrees. Still, there have always been one or two, I wonder where Recap hangs out these days?

I think there's a huge gap in the type of people on this board as well, some younger players with time on their hands that still have the liberty of all day sessions, and some old dudes like me that grew up with the genre, but now have all the inconveniences that kids and family and work bring. Damn them.

[Kollision]

you don't /have/ to be a dedicated player to enjoy the raw, pure thrills of shmupping, and even if you are good, remember the somec*nt law... "no matter how good you get, there's always somec*nt better than you".

QFT

/close thread

[Icarus]

I think there's a huge gap in the type of people on this board as well, some younger players with time on their hands that still have the liberty of all day sessions, and some old dudes like me that grew up with the genre, but now have all the inconveniences that kids and family and work bring. Damn them.

I think the issue many of the better players have is with people who repeatedly bang on about how they practice for hours a day and never seem to get any better, and attribute ability with having no life. That in itself is complete bollocks, and quite offensive to my ears. I personally work many hours a week, I have a varied and interesting social life, and many many hobbies that I take greater interest in. I maybe play one or two hours every four or five days when I can be bothered, but yet my abilities have never diminished.

In fact, I think they're improving.

And what do I attribute that to, if I'm not grinding out scores for eight hours a day? I attribute it to actually having a decent method of practice, knowing what skills I need to improve, and developing my knowledge. Even if I only play an hour a week, if I focus on learning something new during my time, then it benefits my ability, and I've made good use of my session.

It's not just how much you practice, it's what and how you practice. Many of you seem to forget that simple fact, and the constant reappearance of threads like the "grievances" thread only serves as a reminder to just how massive a disappointment the supposed "enthusiasts" are around here.

Thus ends my one yearly vitriolic post.

[Marc]

I guess I been guilty of that at times, point well made and taken.

Genuine question though Icarus, how much were you playing during the period when you brought your skills up to their current level?

[TLB]

...But eventually I might get that Garegga clear. It might take me a hundred hours and repeated ignoring of work so I can study the guide. But if someone tells me that they cleared Garegga in one-fifth the time and calls me a fag, what am I supposed to do? Cry bitch tears about it? Hell no, I factor in that I have a ton of skills other than learning shmups, that I play a ton of other kinds of games, that I go to work every day and so I might get rusty, that I play with a variety of controllers on less-than-perfect TV's, and that I don't play games on speed as much as I used to. There's no reason to be negative about playing a video game less proficiently than someone. Just learn to manage your time better...

If you stick to one mildly difficult game long enough to clear it (e.g. Garegga), you will have been forced to develop skills that you didn't have before because you simply analyzed each situation and created a solution. Good luck, Garegga's a great game ^_-

Thus ends my one yearly vitriolic post.

Ouch. I got some in my eye and it kinda smelled funny for a second or two.


Anyway, Marc ignored a nice PM from me about another thread, and he ignored my post here. If he'd read it, he wouldn't have been talking shit again. Marc doesn't read, and when he does, it's not comprehensive.

In case he was curious, I have been working to pay my way through university out-of-pocket for 2.5 years. I am quite sure that I don't have "all day" to sit around and learn this shit. Improving at these games is as simple as starting up a stage that gives you difficulty in stage practice (preferably with a beginning point as near to your first point of trouble as possible) and learning how to coordinate your movement and firepower such that you don't die and the enemy does die. This is a pretty basic analytical skill. We are supposed to be the dominant race on the planet, guys...

E: It seems he will read other posters' posts comprehensively, but not mine. Interesting. Perhaps he didn't actually read comprehensively, but wasn't offended by some aspects of the tone. Very deep situation, one that I'm sure someone else cares more about. I'd be very grateful to that someone else if they could detail an analysis. I've nothing against Marc; I would like to see him grow into a communicative, thorough shmups forum poster. Not solely because he says mean things to me in posts.

[Skykid]

The thing is most of what seems to be giving people trouble is the simple stuff like the pillbugs in Futari Original's stage 3. It's like Sapz explained to me, nobody should need a guide for that shit. All it requires is basic streaming skills anyone serious should develop when they're first starting out. But the fucking casuals here simply never had that moment where they take a look at what's killing them and realize there's a way to manipulate the bullets to make it easy to dodge. Most people who do clear it do so by just mindlessly flailing around until they reach the end with an inevitably terrible score. That's because to the average poster here, playing League of Legends, watching the latest gamemovie, or even shitposting here all take higher priority over getting good at shmups. What I'm saying is it's not worth your time to teach people how to play; people who want to get good and not just play for bad scores and easy clears will get good on their own. Shmups chat is best enjoyed just trolling and laughing at the huge amount of shitposting.

I dunno how you managed to interpret it like that; I disagree with a lot of this. This is exactly the kind of thing people do need help with, at least before they develop the necessary skills to create their own strategies easily, which is something gained through a lot of practice (IIRC it took me at least a year to learn how to do this even at a basic level). The thing that gives high scorers an edge is usually not something obscure like talent or inherent skill or whatever, but simple analysis and knowledge of why they're dying or missing out on points. I often see people mention that they died because the game is hard or something, rather than a concrete reason such as 'I ran out of streaming space for this attack' (typical Futari Original death) or 'I didn't attack this enemy fast enough and got overwhelmed' (typical Ketsui death) - I believe learning how to approach the games like this, with the idea in mind that you can learn from these deaths and not do the same thing next time, is the fastest way to improve. Analyzing a game like this is difficult at first, but gets easier the more you try to do it.

I'll also go ahead and say that there's absolutely nothing wrong with someone not interested in playing the games like this and playing casually instead, because y'know, they're goddamn video games and are inherently just for fun. People seem to be forgetting this lately.

This is the most important statement and response to statement in this thread. It shows you how one top scorer can be a belligerent asshole and another can be an agreeable individual ready to offer conventional wisdom to folk who are just here to play videogames, regardless of their prowess.
This is the fundamental basis for all conflicting arguments that exist at shmups.org and should be used as an example forevermore.

Code: Select all

1  | GUS                |   *417,636,898     |    ALL (Lx4)       |    Belligerent Asshole          
2  | SPZ                |   *411,803,020     |    ALL (Lx5)       |    Conventional Wisdom       

Sapz, you're no.1 in my book.

[Marc]

@ TLB (quoting is ass on iPhone)

Hadn't noticed the PM man, thanks. I still think we're poles apart in what we actually want to gain from these games, but I also think there's room for everyone so whatever.

And as for shit talking in this thread? I've hled my hands up to maybe falling prey to generalisation at times, and the one sarcastic post was in no way, shape or form aimed in your direction, as pointed out by Skykid above.

[TLB]

@ TLB (quoting is ass on iPhone)

Hadn't noticed the PM man, thanks. I still think we're poles apart in what we actually want to gain from these games, but I also think there's room for everyone so whatever.

And as for shit talking in this thread? I've hled my hands up to maybe falling prey to generalisation at times, and the one sarcastic post was in no way, shape or form aimed in your direction, as pointed out by Skykid above.

It's cool, dude. I'll just leave, at that.

[Icarus]

... how much were you playing during the period when you brought your skills up to their current level?

Maybe one or two hours every three or four days.
I think it was Ramus' original weekly competitions that made me evaluate my practice methods for efficiency.

[Marc]

I'll readily admit that my practice isn't (or hasn't) been very productive in the past. I think that's down to having played these games back when there were no savestates/training modes and the only way to finish a shmup was to grind your way past each and every point that caused a problem. Kind of set in my ways I guess. I've enjoyed Futari so much however that I am throwing in a few training rounds and boss fights here and there, not only am I feeling an improvement but it also breaks up an hour of back to back runs quite nicely.

[Eaglet]

Don't want to kiss ass but Icarus said everything that needed to be said.
Knowing how to practice is crucial in learning any skill there ever was.
Working out a good practice methods is what takes the most time, but fortunately it is something you only have to do once.
When i was 13-14 and started learning to play the guitar i didn't know how to practice and used to sit 8 hours a day practicing.
Fast forward to my high school years where i practiced 0,5-1 hour a day with much better results.

Getting good at something has very little to do with how much time you put into it and very much to do with how you do it.


Good practice methods + analyzing what you're doing = Winning


Edit: for the record, i've been playing shmups since late september last year and have put in about 4 hours a week. So timewise i would say that i'm definitely a newb.

[BareKnuckleRoo]

But the fucking casuals here simply never had that moment where they take a look at what's killing them and realize there's a way to manipulate the bullets to make it easy to dodge. Most people who do clear it do so by just mindlessly flailing around until they reach the end with an inevitably terrible score.

I know you posted in the Futari thread how disappointed you are with people clearing a game once and not touching it again in order to improve their score, but seriously, shmups are not an easy genre for anyone, and certainly the vast majority of these games are not a trivial clear compared to most other game genres nowadays. You'd do a better job of convincing people to stick with the games and go for better scores if you used a more encouraging tone than saying that anyone who got a 1cc with a crap score is a 'fucking casual' who did it by 'mindlessly flailing around' and assuming they'll never improve on it.

[Eaglet]

I think that's down to having played these games back when there were no savestates/training modes and the only way to finish a shmup was to grind your way past each and every point that caused a problem.

While that may be true for you, i've never used save states (i've pretty much only played PCBs on arcade cabs) and haven't felt that a single credit was unproductive or "grind".

[Marc]

Grind may be the wrong word, all I'm basically saying is that I've noticed an improvement in my consistency since I took on board that there are other ways to approach these games that simply full runs.

[Hagane]

I think there's a huge gap in the type of people on this board as well, some younger players with time on their hands that still have the liberty of all day sessions, and some old dudes like me that grew up with the genre, but now have all the inconveniences that kids and family and work bring. Damn them.

Not only is playing full day sessions not necessary for getting good at an STG, I actually believe that playing too much is detrimental to your progress and a waste of time. Focus isn't infinite or constant, and long gaming sessions (especially ones where you haven't slept or eaten well) are tiring and you won't be as good in your first 1-3 hours than at hour 12.

I think that playing 1 or 2 hours a day is much better for improving than those day long sessions.

As an aside, there's absolutely nothing wrong with playing shooters casually and not wanting to become the next ISO. But there's a problem when "casual" players waste their time whining (most of the time about stuff they don't really understand) instead of using that time for actually playing and maybe learning the games.

[O. Van Bruce]

As Ketsui is the only shmup in which I keep Whining, i have to confess that I don't play it every day nor play it for more than an hour or 2. Even so, if you analize how to get through an stage then it's just a matter of 2 or 3 practice sesions it to get it.

I don't even know what to say. I simply play shmups without any plan laid out, then memorize the parts which need memorizing more than skill and finally, I start progressing.

My style is very chaotic but I know when to stop that...

[Legendary Hoamaru]

Lots of great points. It's kind of like weight lifting or working out in general. It's not how much time you spend in the gym but how you work out (and how you eat, rest). Some people do take longer than others to develop though and it's something players have to recognize. It's just a better use of time figuring out what you're doing wrong and working on fixing it then complaining about things you can't change.

I don't think anyone has a problem with people playing casually or for fun. If you're playing for either of those reasons, chances are you aren't doing much complaining . There is nothing wrong with moving away from a game either if it just doesn't click with you.

[Eaglet]

It's kind of like weight lifting or working out in general.

Very true.
Like the difference between pussy ass shallow squats and ATG (muthafuckaaaaa).

[DrTrouserPlank]

The thing is most of what seems to be giving people trouble is the simple stuff like the pillbugs in Futari Original's stage 3. It's like Sapz explained to me, nobody should need a guide for that shit. All it requires is basic streaming skills anyone serious should develop when they're first starting out. But the fucking casuals here simply never had that moment where they take a look at what's killing them and realize there's a way to manipulate the bullets to make it easy to dodge. Most people who do clear it do so by just mindlessly flailing around until they reach the end with an inevitably terrible score. That's because to the average poster here, playing League of Legends, watching the latest gamemovie, or even shitposting here all take higher priority over getting good at shmups. What I'm saying is it's not worth your time to teach people how to play; people who want to get good and not just play for bad scores and easy clears will get good on their own. Shmups chat is best enjoyed just trolling and laughing at the huge amount of shitposting.

What you're actually saying is that getting good basically involves spending all your time playing these games, which whether intentionally or not is the most honest thing someone has posted on here for a long time.

But you know it's not as simple as just "manipulating the bullets". There's a million places you can stick your ship on screen, how are you supposed to know with clairvoyant accuracy which one is best without using trial and error (which will be a very lengthy process)?

You don't just magically happen upon the solution within a couple of tries.

[Erppo]

What you're actually saying is that getting good basically involves spending all your time playing these games, which whether intentionally or not is the most honest thing someone has posted on here for a long time.

Still going on about the people lying about their abilities eh?

[Icarus]

I've enjoyed Futari so much however that I am throwing in a few training rounds and boss fights here and there, not only am I feeling an improvement but it also breaks up an hour of back to back runs quite nicely.

This is one of the correct ways to practice. Obviously, if there are no training modes or save states handy, a player will have to use other means (credit-feeding, watching replays etc), but the key point is to focus your practice on the most important parts - specific bullet patterns, enemy placements, or even something as simple as learning how to manipulate weapons, rank and/or scoring systems - and then getting it into muscle memory, so your mind can focus on something else. Confidence is a big part of success, and knowing what you need to improve through practice is one big step towards building that confidence in your abilities.

Many of the better players have repeatedly stated that this kind of practice is not hard work. I agree, it isn't hard work at all. Unlike many other genres, shooting games is a skill-based genre, and you don't need to grind for hours to make improvements, just ensure that you know what you need to improve on, and take steps to do it. Make a temporary goal, perhaps, to beat a particular stage score, or learn a pattern to 100% efficiency. Small steps.

You also have to remember that the best Asian players (Japan, China, Korea etc) aren't just good because of ability - I've always said that natural ability is a separating factor between players, but not as big a deciding factor as some make out - but because they build their skills, and surround themselves in an environment that facilitates improvement -> competition, and sharing ideas and knowledge through various means. Obviously we don't have arcades here, but we can still do other similar things - compete on the Hi-Scores forum, discuss strategy, share replays either through MAME or recorded to .avi/.mp4/.mkv etc. Make the best use of your resources, and your skills will improve. It's the same with fighting games and so on, the environment you surround yourself in will determine your pace of improvements. If natural ability were such a big factor, I'd be bottom of every table, because I don't think I have natural ability in shooting games. Everything I know, I've learned from experience.

I've said enough. I think many of you might need to read through this chapter on practice methods (currently ver0.20), from a much larger document I'm cooking up, because it feels like I'm just repeating myself over and over lately.

[Deca]

But you know it's not as simple as just "manipulating the bullets". There's a million places you can stick your ship on screen, how are you supposed to know with clairvoyant accuracy which one is best without using trial and error (which will be a very lengthy process)?

You don't just magically happen upon the solution within a couple of tries.

With the pillbugs in Futari? I uh...think a lot of us did and it in fact was as simple as just manipulating the bullets. Just don't stand in the corner waiting for them to fire and dodging the spreads is really not that difficult. I'm assuming you're talking about 1.5 because in BL you can just use Reco's focus shot and kill most of them before they even have a chance to be threatening.

You won't know what the BEST path is immediately (unless you took the time to watch a topranker replay) but with basic understanding of pattern behavior and manipulation/herding you can create a path that works.

God it's so hard not to respond to these posts, I don't know why but there's still something enjoyable about it on some level.

[O. Van Bruce]

Those pill bugs?

i just bomb then when they fire the spread shots! XD I use 2 or 3 bombs on that stage + i'm reducing the rank so it's allright! XD

[RNGmaster]

Being good at shmups is passé. This year is all about being shit at shmups.

We've all been whacked with the Trouser Plank.

It takes quite a man to destroy an entire forum.

[BareKnuckleRoo]

It takes quite a man to destroy an entire forum.

Sometimes I wonder if a troll wanting to annoy people by claiming to buy a lot of games and saying they're all impossible wouldn't act all that differently. But then I remember I know people who constantly buy new games that come out and never complete half of them, let alone bother to play the harder modes or get good at them, so DTP's attitude doesn't strike me as totally unbelievable.

[Randorama]

A new metaphor on a totally old, decrepite discussion.

Becoming good at shmups is like body-building/fitness. With an excellent method, one hour per day will give you sterling results. Without method, even 10 hours will give you no more than a broken back.

If you don't like this metaphor, you can swap it with baseball/cricket/any sport of skill and coordination. Among other things, there is some growing literature on the parallels between sports and videogames, with respect to learning trends and practices.

I will put on open access a couple of articles on this topic, provided that I get accepted first





[/end subliminal self-promoting message]














And anyone who doesn't have a letter score on Garegga is a N00b.

[Icarus]

And anyone who doesn't have a letter score on Garegga is a N00b.

Preferably without using Gain?

[Eaglet]

And anyone who doesn't have a letter score on Garegga is a N00b.

I am working on that one!
Just you wait and see... tomorrow...

Preferably without using Gain?

That too.
Golden Bat ftw!

[Jeneki]

anyone who doesn't have a letter score on Garegga is a N00b.

"Wow, your score is a D, you must really suck at this game." - random person at Geek Kon 2011.