Too close for comfort? the revival?

[Never_Scurred]

After reading Nasirosuchus's epic post, the question must be asked...when did it become a crime to say you just like getting shit for free? Why go through all the justifications and shit?

[Nasirosuchus]

Still (purposely, at this point) missing the point when you shouldn't; "most people" aren't Shmups Forum members.

There is an old saying - "don't shit where your trough" - and it rings true.

You're not fooling anybody with your talk hinting that the evil Shmup Forums overlords are trying to lord it over the rest of Shmupdom. Who cares if other places don't have standards?

*Sigh*

When I said that people hadn't heard of Fast Striker, the person whom I quoted said that there was a thread here where you could ask the developer questions, etc. By stating that most people aren't members on this site, I was saying that the thread wasn't enough to really generate interest in the game (which wasn't all that great to begin with).

Talk about missing the point.

[Ed Oscuro]

Still (purposely, at this point) missing the point when you shouldn't; "most people" aren't Shmups Forum members.

There is an old saying - "don't shit where your trough" - and it rings true.

You're not fooling anybody with your talk hinting that the evil Shmup Forums overlords are trying to lord it over the rest of Shmupdom. Who cares if other places don't have standards?

*Sigh*

When I said that people hadn't heard of Fast Striker, the person whom I quoted said that there was a thread here where you could ask the developer questions, etc. By stating that most people aren't members on this site, I was saying that the thread wasn't enough to really generate interest in the game (which wasn't all that great to begin with).

Talk about missing the point.

"The person" was me, and you were trying to twist my original point to suit your purpose.

[system11]

After reading Nasirosuchus's epic post, the question must be asked...when did it become a crime to say you just like getting shit for free? Why go through all the justifications and shit?

No, you're making this too simple. We needed that rather tired freetard propeganda post so that people can see the true evil going on. Those companies, they're real assholes. If you decide you don't want to buy their latest DVDs, they FORCE you to pirate it. At gunpoint. Then they scream 'pirate' at you, you can't win

Trouble is, each and every one of us will die if we don't have access to other people's work, for nothing. Basic human right or something.

[Never_Scurred]

After reading Nasirosuchus's epic post, the question must be asked...when did it become a crime to say you just like getting shit for free? Why go through all the justifications and shit?

No, you're making this too simple. We needed that rather tired freetard propeganda post so that people can see the true evil going on. Those companies, they're real assholes. If you decide you don't want to buy their latest DVDs, they FORCE you to pirate it. At gunpoint. Then they scream 'pirate' at you, you can't win

Trouble is, each and every one of us will die if we don't have access to other people's work, for nothing. Basic human right or something.

The voices tell me to torrent. I must obey the voices.

[TrevHead (TVR)]

DC, well, if DC is your alternative platform then that's your problem* an awful lot of the people I know who still have DCs have found the drives have died by now, people picking them up 2nd hand are finding the same thing, get a month or two out of them and the drive is dead. GD-ROM drives are no longer produced, it's a dying platform which people are less and less likely to see as a worthwhile investment, unlike older more reliable cartridge based systems. Asking somebody to buy a DC just for your game is somewhat pretentious is it not?

* Well, it's actually an industry wide problem, everything being locked down so hard in the name of preventing piracy but actually screwing smaller developers over because they can't legitimately release their own software through their own channels. Can't have it both ways apparently, although it's more about having absolute control over the market and being able to take a cut of everything than preventing piracy anyway. I wonder at what point smaller developers will realise their real enemy are not the pirates, but the larger industry and console manufacturers as a whole. Had it been released as an independent, unlicensed CD/DVD based game for the 360/PS3 I guarantee you would have sold more, however, it wasn't, because you can't, lovely anti-competitive industry we have.

As for Fast Striker hate, I wouldn't call it hate, it might be a perfectly adequate game, but I haven't even bothered pirating it to find out because there are more appealing games available for less money, on more accessible platforms, and I have no real desire to pirate current software. That doesn't mean I'm just going to go out and buy it tho.

Pretentious to release on the dead systems? imo nope, its just the same as Grev and Milestone etc have been doing for ages because they are too niche for modern systems. And as you state about current 7th gen consoles getting tighter DRM lockouts on them it really isnt a good alternative for them. While it would be cool to have them as digi DL on the 360, MS really isnt that indie friendly as XBLIG and increasingly XBLA is becoming a sham. Steam on the other hand were anti shmup and Japanese genres until recently. Besides since with freeware and cheap indie games devalueing games (it isnt that FS is a crap game, its that gaming outside AAA is way undervalued for the most part, its totally skrewing up gamers sense in a games worth) So niche devs, that includes CAVE have no choice but to look to outside the mainstream gamer demographic, IE loli nutters and collectors.

Too much competition destroying the market for indies, just like the 80s videogame crash? Maybe so. The only ppl that are doing well are the big publishers with tons of cash and devs with the best IPs (which will get milked for all theyre worth)

As you state the DC and 6th gen hardware is getting abit too long in the tooth, this gen been so long hasnt helped. Im unsure if devs like NGDev Team can successfully make the move to 7th gen hardware with regards to the hardware lockouts and if the publishing licensing will be relaxed the same way older gens have. I wonder how good an alternative the Wii is to the DC? Its certanly more emulator frendly on PC so no knacked disk drives, and with emulation the games wont look like shit on LCD screens, besides theres tons of disk based shovelware so I cant see why shmup devs cant make games for it cheaply. The more I think aboutit the odder it seems that why niche devs arnt all flocking to the Wii now its on the way out.

[Never_Scurred]

These days, "Y U NO release for PC?" is almost like saying, "give it to me for free, plz", unless you lace it with DRM, then everyone will think you're an asshole.

[Estebang]

Furthermore, DRM has been proven to have absolutely zero effect at preventing piracy--there's no security a team of Russians can't crack within a couple days or less. If anything, DRM just encourages piracy, because the pirated copies don't have it, and people can do what they want with them.

Diablo 3 is offering the final solution to this--require a persistent internet connection and have almost all of the game's elements hosted server-side. I really, really hope this doesn't become the new standard.

[TrevHead (TVR)]

(fuck backspace hotkey deleting my unfinished posts)

I think the main crux here is that no one is acting responsibly, industry milks the gamers, gamers milk the industry, retailers milk the industry too.
What was the saying? People taking the piss is why we cant have nice things.

Its just the same in the workplace. Management is lax on some rule or another as it trusts ppl will act responsibly. Ppl take the piss, so management has to come down hard fucking it up for everybody.

[gray117]

I grew up with such systems, and it was good, so um, yes. Stop trotting out the usual industry BS.

There's a great irony that the likes of EA got off the ground on open systems, and even made unlicensed MD carts and the like just to avoid going through Sega, yet now come out with the same BS as everybody else because they don't want real competition from indie developers.

I know the cost of XBox Indie, but you have to code in C#, which means rewriting your entire project in a Microsoft-centric language, non-starter for anybody wanting to create something they can reuse in the future. PC is a poor target for other reasons, endless compatibiltiy issues, a console you're guaranteed everything is the same and will work. iPhones are just toys with a terrible input device when it comes to serious games.

A well designed system doesn't need all this updatable stuff and complex operating systems which causes problems in the first place, so viruses would be a non-issue. I'm a programmer, a developer, I understand how these things work yet all I see are excuses to maintain a status-quo and lock out competition.

You're funny; you don't like anything and have unrealistic expectations of how people compromise and agree to standards.

EA owed its start to what was available and many early games got re-written as required to move platforms...

With the cartridges, EA challenged sega on the manufacturing costs and the two reached an agreement. Codemasters did the same thing to a lesser extent. Both publishers still paid licensing rights, but not manufacturing costs... of course cost was a massive issue but specifically I believe part of the issue on EA's part were region lockouts and on codemaster's end were print run numbers, but I maybe mistaken. They didn't just reverse engineer the process and force sega with the lulz we've dun it approach...

XNA is limiting, but its quick to prototype. It may not be perfect or all conquering, but C# is a very practical tool for the scale of projects this is aimed at.

If your serious C++ game is really so complete a solution that your priority is overcoming compatibility issues/licensing cosrs, then you should have no problem attracting cash if you're in need of help to port it to a console or complete it for pc. I'd be mighty curious what kind of phases you went through, and what content you populated this serious game with, if these were the top concerns.

...There's a real resource cost in time that will limit you, no matter how skilled you may actually be. Your mythical situation where your quality serious game is locked out due to licensing costs or compatibility issues is bogus. If you even get this far the part made game will be worth more than it would cost to overcome those concerns, unless you're doing something of poor quality that was already a waste of your time, except as maybe a learning experience.

[Barrakketh]

Steam on the other hand were anti shmup and Japanese genres until recently.

Based on what, exactly? What STG and "Japanese genres" (what are those, exactly?) were submitted to Valve so they might be distributed through Steam, and were denied? The lack of such games in past years is more likely to be due to the developers not trying to get them on Steam.

[Estebang]

What STG and "Japanese genres" (what are those, exactly?) were submitted to Valve so they might be distributed through Steam, and were denied? The lack of such games in past years is more likely to be due to the developers not trying to get them on Steam.

Don't think so. I've heard reputable insider knowledge stating that the people at Valve running Steam utterly hate shmups and have a general distaste for Japanese games, and it's amazing that games like Satazius and Gundemonium Collection were able to make it onto the service at all. This would undoubtedly be a huge barrier for Cave if they ever tried to break into the Steam market.

[Never_Scurred]

What STG and "Japanese genres" (what are those, exactly?) were submitted to Valve so they might be distributed through Steam, and were denied? The lack of such games in past years is more likely to be due to the developers not trying to get them on Steam.

Don't think so. I've heard reputable insider knowledge stating that the people at Valve running Steam utterly hate shmups and have a general distaste for Japanese games, and it's amazing that games like Satazius and Gundemonium Collection were able to make it onto the service at all. This would undoubtedly be a huge barrier for Cave if they ever tried to break into the Steam market.

There we go with the speculation again...

[TrevHead (TVR)]

Steam on the other hand were anti shmup and Japanese genres until recently.

Based on what, exactly? What STG and "Japanese genres" (what are those, exactly?) were submitted to Valve so they might be distributed through Steam, and were denied? The lack of such games in past years is more likely to be due to the developers not trying to get them on Steam.

Rockin Android have stated that they tried to get their doujins onto Steam before they moved to PSN. Once Carpe Fulgur and Jamestown broke the market on Steam, Valve changed their tune and allowed RA to publish their doujins. I would also hazard a guess that the handfull of other STGs and doujins like those from Curious Factory, which are sold on other digital platforms like Gamers Game, will have tried to get their games onto Steam since its the biggest download service. (IIRC The Xona guys tried to get their XBLIG onto Steam but were refused at the last hurdle)

Its worth remembering that there have been a glut of simple neon twin stick shooters on steam well before we saw shmups and other doujins on there. I dont know why Valve wasnt intrested: lack of market? didnt want shmups and other JPN games on steam due to some marketing issue? (similar to MS and how fickle theyve been with arcade ports on XBLA) or just something on the programming side. Whatever it was, there was a barrier to getting those games onto there back then

[bcass]

There's the Xbox indie stuff, but that requires you to rewrite your entire game in sandboxed C#, which is a significant amount of work and locks you to a market not visible to the mainstream.

XNA developed titles run on PCs, often with zero code changes required. I wouldn't really call that a market not visible to the mainstream. In fact, there's a number of XNA titles up on Steam. Then there's the mono project which lets you develop in C#/XNA for iOS/Android. Microsoft themeselves used mono to develop Kinectimals on the iPhone.

[bcass]

I've heard reputable insider knowledge stating that the people at Valve running Steam utterly hate shmups and have a general distaste for Japanese games

I think that ranks as the biggest load of bullshit I've ever read on the internet.

[Nasirosuchus]

Still (purposely, at this point) missing the point when you shouldn't; "most people" aren't Shmups Forum members.

There is an old saying - "don't shit where your trough" - and it rings true.

You're not fooling anybody with your talk hinting that the evil Shmup Forums overlords are trying to lord it over the rest of Shmupdom. Who cares if other places don't have standards?

*Sigh*

When I said that people hadn't heard of Fast Striker, the person whom I quoted said that there was a thread here where you could ask the developer questions, etc. By stating that most people aren't members on this site, I was saying that the thread wasn't enough to really generate interest in the game (which wasn't all that great to begin with).

Talk about missing the point.

"The person" was me, and you were trying to twist my original point to suit your purpose.

No, I wasn't. It was a clear and simple response to what you wrote. If you meant something else, then please tell me.

[Nasirosuchus]

After reading Nasirosuchus's epic post, the question must be asked...when did it become a crime to say you just like getting shit for free? Why go through all the justifications and shit?

No, you're making this too simple. We needed that rather tired freetard propeganda post so that people can see the true evil going on. Those companies, they're real assholes. If you decide you don't want to buy their latest DVDs, they FORCE you to pirate it. At gunpoint. Then they scream 'pirate' at you, you can't win

Trouble is, each and every one of us will die if we don't have access to other people's work, for nothing. Basic human right or something.

For your information, I own well over 100 video games, 30 CDs, and 30 DVDs, the majority of which were bought brand new at the actual retail price. So you see, if I like something, I'll buy it. Even if this weren't the case and my motive was simply not to pay for games, I'd have no problem admitting to it. Do you think I'd really give a damn about the approval of people that I'll most likely never meet in real life regarding what I do in my own home?

If you and those in the industry wish to continue demonizing your fanbase as thieves, pirates, and entitles ingrates who simply want everything for free, then that's your problem. It's not hurting my business.

[Nasirosuchus]

Pretentious to release on the dead systems? imo nope, its just the same as Grev and Milestone etc have been doing for ages because they are too niche for modern systems.

Milestone and G.Rev haven't released a Dreamcast title in 5 and 6 years, respectively. The fact that those two companies did it doesn't change the fact that it's not a good idea, nor does it mitigate the other flaws with Fast Striker

Fast Striker was released on a system that hasn't been produced in nearly a decade. Only 10 million were ever sold, and with it being a disc-based system, only a fraction of them are still working. This means that a used Dreamcast is a hidden cost. There's also the fact that there were other games out there that are free and just as good as/better than Fast Striker.

Releasing it on the Dreamcast made the p2p version better than the original. All you need for latter is an emulator like nulldc which will run on virtually any computer built in the last 6 years. The alternative was to buy a used system which could very well break within a few months or even weeks of having it.

[cools]

Surely nullDC will play an original Fast Striker disc? Or was it an actual GD-ROM release rather than a CD?

[Ed Oscuro]

If you and those in the industry wish to continue demonizing your fanbase as thieves, pirates, and entitles ingrates who simply want everything for free, then that's your problem. It's not hurting my business.

But this is exactly what the problem is about. If you would actually READ WHAT HE IS WRITING (and myself also), there is no demonization, only a call for people to be respectful of developers and have standards that include not openly collaborating on pirating brand-spanking-new game releases. System11's response to ask people to think about what it would mean if there were no more copyright was intended to get people thinking about what this extreme freebies-grabbing mentality would result in.

Please, no more straw men arguments.

[nem]

Surely nullDC will play an original Fast Striker disc? Or was it an actual GD-ROM release rather than a CD?

Regular CD. Under Defeat or the second pressing of Border Down (can't remember which one was later) used up the last of the remaining GD-ROMs. Everything released after that point is unlicensed by Sega and pressed on regular CDs.

[Udderdude]

Good thing Dreamcast emulators are in very good shape these days. No clue how well Fast Striker would run on them, though.

I can't imagine I'd pay $60 for a game I could only play in an emulator .. unless it was amazingly good and didn't make the emulator explode.

I believe I tried drilling some sense into RHE back before DUX was released, about putting the game on the Dreamcast. Obviously, he didn't listen. And the result is a game that costs big bucks to patch/update, and it seems he never will get around to it. Probably because he lacks said $$$.

[nZero]

Regular CD. Under Defeat or the second pressing of Border Down (can't remember which one was later) used up the last of the remaining GD-ROMs. Everything released after that point is unlicensed by Sega and pressed on regular CDs.

Actually the honor of final licensed Dreamcast GD-ROM release goes to Milestone's Karous in 2007. I wouldn't be at all surprised to hear that there were even later NAOMI GD-ROM releases, as well.

[Skykid]

They could've stood up for what they believed in but chose not to.

Of course people will continue to make and distribute illicit builds which run these games cos some people have some integrity and the courage of their convictions whilst others just don't give a fuck.

I've seen enough.

I'm going to stand up for what I believe in, because I do give a fuck, and I do actually have some integrity. Integrity of the kind you didn't show when you uploaded a torrent of a new game (Fast Striker) by a small niche developer who depends on sales of their titles to stay in business. If smaller dev houses stop making arcade games because they need to switch to programming dating apps to pay the rent, we all lose.

As such, you can take your pro-piracy, pro-taking-whatever-we-can-because-we're-entitled-to-it attitude, and fuck off.

Banned.

Hello System11 and fellow forumites.

I've applauded some bans around here, but not really this one. Mjclark was only guilty of being consistent in his views, which I don't think is a crime in itself. Threads like this one, which openly discuss and champion emulation, have been actively allowed to exist for a year and 72 pages worth of input. It seems highly unusual then for him to be banned for a post he made twelve days earlier that are no different to the views he's always expressed. If he had several behind the scenes warnings then I apologise in advance, but it makes no sense that this thread is even allowed to continue if people like him aren't allowed to post their views in it.

I don't agree with Mjclark uploading Fast Striker. Perhaps that should have been a flashpoint for a ban if the forum wanted to make a statement about what they will/will not tolerate in terms of promotion of piracy.

I respect System11's decision, even if I don't really agree with it. It seems a little snapped, and I can't see a great deal of purpose in it. Mjclark may have been a filthy pirate, but I know he's not the only one around here, and at least he ended his sentences with a goodwill smiley.
Looking back over the first few pages of this thread there are plenty of folk shooting loads in their pants over the prospect of SH3 games in Mame, making them just as complicit as anyone in the promotion of piracy and emulation.

My two bits, I appreciate some may disagree.

[system11]

I don't agree with Mjclark uploading Fast Striker. Perhaps that should have been a flashpoint for a ban if the forum wanted to make a statement about what they will/will not tolerate in terms of promotion of piracy.

That's quite right and you might have missed this:

Indeed, and having someone on the board who pirated another members work was an untenable situation even without the whole issue of encouraging ellicit MAME builds.

My only regret over the situation is that I hadn't seen all of this when it happened.

This thread is irretrievably off topic, so as mentioned a few days ago I'll be locking it now - wanted to let people get their words in first.