XRGB-mini Framemeister

[chadti99]

Retro's XRGB cable for SNES works great on my RGB-02 in either raw or composite sync mode. There may be a little bit of noise visible on solid colors but it's hard to tell sometimes with a Plasma using PWM. No ringing or ghosting or bars to speak of, pure RGB goodness. I'm still blown away by the excellent color saturation RGB provides.


What switch box do you guys recommend for use with the Mini and RGB? Should I go for the official unit or will one of the Hanna switchers listed on Ebay work with Japanese style 21 pin RGB?

[Fudoh]

EU-Scart switches won't work with japanese Scart cables. If you want to use a switch you have to use EU-Scart cables into the switch and a EU to JP Scart lead from the switch into the Mini.

[TurboCro]

Retro's XRGB cable for SNES works great on my RGB-02 in either raw or composite sync mode. There may be a little bit of noise visible on solid colors but it's hard to tell sometimes with a Plasma using PWM. No ringing or ghosting or bars to speak of, pure RGB goodness. I'm still blown away by the excellent color saturation RGB provides.


What switch box do you guys recommend for use with the Mini and RGB? Should I go for the official unit or will one of the Hanna switchers listed on Ebay work with Japanese style 21 pin RGB?

http://www.solarisjapan.com/products/Se ... ctor-.html

I'm using the Selecty21.

[lordnikon]

Hey all, thanks for your replies to my inquiery about PSP Zoom support.

I am now interested in acquiring a XRGB-Mini, however I am probobly in the minority here in that I currently use this equipment to process content to SD displays. I use an XRGB-3's transcoder functionality, along with the PS2/Dreamcast and an Extron Emotia to force games like SVC Chaos down to proper 240p without lag. The secondary function I use the XRGB-3 for is to transcode a PSP-2000's 480p output through this same setup.

So now: Is it possible to step HDMI back down to VGA so I can feed it through the Emotia to render on my SDTV / CRT Monitors? Would I need an HDFury for this? I would like to accomplish this without any additional lag. Since that is the primary reason I would like to get a XRGB-Mini, to play PSP games zoomed, with less lag than the XRGB-3's scaling mode.

Thanks!

[Fudoh]

I'd say you're better off with the XRGB-3. You can use the Mini along with a HDFury to do this, but the Mini's 480p output (which you'd have to use to feed an Emotia is less sharp than the XRGB-3's B1 output. I also don't think that scaling a PSP signal to 240p a good idea to begin with, since you're forcing the 272 active lines into a 240p signal. With or without scanlines, that's clearly degrading the signal.

I also don't trust the Mini's lag display on the info screen. I believe the Mini's lag is closer to the XRGB-3's B0 mode than to it's B1 mode. I've done some tests on this and I will do more and I will post the results once I'm done.

[chadti99]

EU-Scart switches won't work with japanese Scart cables. If you want to use a switch you have to use EU-Scart cables into the switch and a EU to JP Scart lead from the switch into the Mini.

If the box is wired for full RGB support it should just pass the signal along without changing anything and would still work, no?

[chadti99]

Retro's XRGB cable for SNES works great on my RGB-02 in either raw or composite sync mode. There may be a little bit of noise visible on solid colors but it's hard to tell sometimes with a Plasma using PWM. No ringing or ghosting or bars to speak of, pure RGB goodness. I'm still blown away by the excellent color saturation RGB provides.


What switch box do you guys recommend for use with the Mini and RGB? Should I go for the official unit or will one of the Hanna switchers listed on Ebay work with Japanese style 21 pin RGB?

http://www.solarisjapan.com/products/Se ... ctor-.html

I'm using the Selecty21.

I've been looking at this but $100+ to only switch between three devices? Am I missing something, does it auto-switch or have a remote?

[RGB32E]

Do you know what the inputs are on pin 11 to switch RGB and composite (I assume)? I have googled this and can't find the voltage ranges. I only sent the cables with pin 16 to one customer, who has XRGB mini and pin 16 isn't connected in the adaptor to the 8 pin mini din anyway. I'll put it on pin 11 if it won't randomly switch to composite on some XRGB units or be too high voltage. I connected it there because he was already having sync issues and I wanted to send him a sample adaptor to try to fix it if he had it with these other cables too.

I remembered that Micomsoft's XSYNC-1 outputs "YS" and "AV Control" on the 8 pin din output connector. I measured the DC voltage from both pins on my XSYNC-1:

http://www.micomsoft.co.jp/sc-500n1_spec.htm

DIN8 Pin 3 "AV Control" measures 4.75VDC
DIN8 Pin 5 "YS" measures 3.00VDC



Googling "EIAJ TTC-003" is all you need to do to find the info. Hence, if you plan on connecting +5VDC when building XRGB/JP21 RGB cables in the future, please use pin 11 (AV Control), and NOT pin 16 (YS).

http://www.control4.com.tw/980512/nh/0208-rca.htm

Ys input (switch for R, G & B signal from/to internal and external,
L: < 0.4, H: > 1.0, 75 ohms)

[TurboCro]

I've been looking at this but $100+ to only switch between three devices? Am I missing something, does it auto-switch or have a remote?

Yea, the price sucks. Unfortunately there don't seem to be any other devices of its kind.

[RGB32E]

I've been looking at this but $100+ to only switch between three devices? Am I missing something, does it auto-switch or have a remote?

Yea, the price sucks. Unfortunately there don't seem to be any other devices of its kind.

I checked it out and the Selecty has level switches for dropping the voltages from arcade PCBs! This was a feature removed with the XRGB-mini, but does exist on the prior units (e.g. XRGB-3 220 ohm setting).

[chadti99]

I've been looking at this but $100+ to only switch between three devices? Am I missing something, does it auto-switch or have a remote?

Yea, the price sucks. Unfortunately there don't seem to be any other devices of its kind.

I checked it out and the Selecty has level switches for dropping the voltages from arcade PCBs! This was a feature removed with the XRGB-mini, but does exist on the prior units (e.g. XRGB-3 220 ohm setting).

Cool, what does this do exactly, improves compatibility with SuperGuns?

[lordnikon]

I'd say you're better off with the XRGB-3. You can use the Mini along with a HDFury to do this, but the Mini's 480p output (which you'd have to use to feed an Emotia is less sharp than the XRGB-3's B1 output. I also don't think that scaling a PSP signal to 240p a good idea to begin with, since you're forcing the 272 active lines into a 240p signal. With or without scanlines, that's clearly degrading the signal.

I also don't trust the Mini's lag display on the info screen. I believe the Mini's lag is closer to the XRGB-3's B0 mode than to it's B1 mode. I've done some tests on this and I will do more and I will post the results once I'm done.

I leave the Super Emotia GX on the interlaced option for PSP games. I was under the assumption that this was the equivelant of 480i, and that it would be the same as the native interlaced S-Video output from a PSP-3000 unit. If I am off base, any extra insight would be appreciated.

The last time I tested the XRGB-3's B0 mode for lag, I had 26-30ms lag for DC 480p 60hz content, 34ms lag for 240p content, and 60ms lag for 480i content. This was done by splitting the VGA out to a CRT monitor and the XRGB-3/Emotia/SDTV rig. The XRGB-3 was the only device adding any lag in the chain. I took the average of 20 samples for each result set.

Has anyone gone to these lengths to identify the true amount of lag on the XRGB-Mini?

What are people using to determine the Mini's actual lag? Are people relying on an onscreen built in lag identifier on the mini, or just guessing based on advertised specs? I have been cautious ever since people had stated that the Gefen VGA-to-DVI Scaler Plus was lag free. Though when I purchased and tested it, it has 16ms of lag.

I should do a retest with the XRGB-3 actually in Zoom mode for the PSP. Depending on what the XRGB-3 hardware is doing, it may yield slight differences in lag. The Dreamcast actually had a 30ms average on the 1024 option, versus 26ms average on the 1280 option. I couldn't test the 1600 option since I didn't have an LCD at the time of testing. Using 1600 would flag an "out of range" error on the CRT. I am not sure whether the 4ms discrepancy has to do with deviations in the scaling hardware/algorithms of the XRGB-3, or that my sample size of 20 was too small, and that I would have to do 50-100 samples under each resolution to get a more accurate result.

[RGB32E]

Cool, what does this do exactly, improves compatibility with SuperGuns?

It drops the voltage levels. Arcade PCBs generally output somewhere between 2-5Vp-p instead of the more standard 0.7Vp-p or 1.0Vp-p. Typically the result is that the picture is WAY too bright, and could potentially damage the device you're connecting the RGB signals to.

For Arcade PCBs, I normally just use ~160 ohm resistors in series on the RGB lines:

Code: Select all

Jamma pin 12 -> 160 ohm resistor -> Red video input pin
Jamma pin N -> 160 ohm resistor -> Green video input pin
Jamma pin 13 -> 160 ohm resistor -> Blue video input pin
Jamma pin P -> CSYNC video input pin
Jamma pin 14 -> Ground pin(s)

@RetroAccess - I just checked one of my SHVC-010 cables and found that:

SNES pin 10 (+5VDC) is directly wired to pin 11!
SNES pin 10 (+5VDC) is indirectly wired to pin 16 via a 75 ohm resistor.

Hence, +5VDC should be wired to pin 11!

[Retro Access]

Retro's XRGB cable for SNES works great on my RGB-02 in either raw or composite sync mode. There may be a little bit of noise visible on solid colors but it's hard to tell sometimes with a Plasma using PWM. No ringing or ghosting or bars to speak of, pure RGB goodness. I'm still blown away by the excellent color saturation RGB provides.

I take it yours is the one then that I put a switch on?

Just collecting some data for myself.

It looks like raw sync really doesn't matter for XRGB Mini. If your console has the problem, it has the problem with EITHER raw sync or composite as sync. One thing I did not try yet was Luma as sync, but I expect that'll just be the same deal.

So for now people either need to get another SNES or try this sync stripping solution (if it works on enough units.)

[Fudoh]

Hence, +5VDC should be wired to pin 11!

This should be obvious. Pin 11 in JP Scart and Pin 8 in EU Scart are the ones to use as a power source for a possible sync processing IC.

[chadti99]

Retro's XRGB cable for SNES works great on my RGB-02 in either raw or composite sync mode. There may be a little bit of noise visible on solid colors but it's hard to tell sometimes with a Plasma using PWM. No ringing or ghosting or bars to speak of, pure RGB goodness. I'm still blown away by the excellent color saturation RGB provides.

I take it yours is the one then that I put a switch on?

Just collecting some data for myself.

It looks like raw sync really doesn't matter for XRGB Mini. If your console has the problem, it has the problem with EITHER raw sync or composite as sync. One thing I did not try yet was Luma as sync, but I expect that'll just be the same deal.

So for now people either need to get another SNES or try this sync stripping solution (if it works on enough units.)

Yep that was me, I didn't realize the it had a switch and couldn't get it to work at first, was caught in between the two settings. So it is a switch between composite sync and raw sync?

BTW the Sega Model 1 XRGB cable works just fine with the Mini as well, no sync issues.

[Retro Access]

Retro's XRGB cable for SNES works great on my RGB-02 in either raw or composite sync mode. There may be a little bit of noise visible on solid colors but it's hard to tell sometimes with a Plasma using PWM. No ringing or ghosting or bars to speak of, pure RGB goodness. I'm still blown away by the excellent color saturation RGB provides.

I take it yours is the one then that I put a switch on?

Just collecting some data for myself.

It looks like raw sync really doesn't matter for XRGB Mini. If your console has the problem, it has the problem with EITHER raw sync or composite as sync. One thing I did not try yet was Luma as sync, but I expect that'll just be the same deal.

So for now people either need to get another SNES or try this sync stripping solution (if it works on enough units.)

Yep that was me, I didn't realize the it had a switch and couldn't get it to work at first, was caught in between the two settings. So it is a switch between composite sync and raw sync?

BTW the Sega Model 1 XRGB cable works just fine with the Mini as well, no sync issues.

It is a switch between those settings, looks like USPS manhandled it, sorry about that.

I was just giving you more options. I have the warning on my listings now for XRGB Mini owners. It does seem to be the case that the options are not in fact needed, that it's purely to do with the model of the SNES.

[Moosmann]

chadti99 wrote:
I've been looking at this but $100+ to only switch between three devices? Am I missing something, does it auto-switch or have a remote?


Yea, the price sucks. Unfortunately there don't seem to be any other devices of its kind.

It is no problem to buy an European Scart Selector and modified the Pinout. But beware to the Diodes (for blanking & Switch volrtage) and the many ground connections. It is also possible to buy a used data switch (for PCs) and modified them.

Greetings Markus

[TurboCro]

Update: XRGB Pics using Japan RGB leads. Neo is an AES 3-6 board (under 100k serial with cut traces to remove those nasty vertical lines). TV is a 720P 50" Panasonic Plasma.

Picture is pretty much perfect!

Big thanks to Fudoh and and Retro Console Accessories for XRGB technical help.

Big thanks to Jeff Kurtz and Xian Xi from neo-geo.com for their AES technical help.

Without teh scanlines:










With teh scanlines:

[BuckoA51]

My TV has problems with the refresh rates from the Genesis and the Amiga at 60hz, according to my Extron the signal the XRGB3 is putting out is H 30.98 V59.3 Hz, which is, I assume, far enough away from spec to upset my TV and mean that I have to do a framerate conversion which introduces some stuttering in the scrolling.

Would the Frame Meister also have this problem on my setup, is it basically unavoidable?

[Fudoh]

I don't know why, but even with framelocked output on the Mini, the compatibility with current TVs is MUCH higher. PGM and MVS were troublesome on my setup before the Mini and through the Mini they simply work, although the HDMI output signal is bend down to 59.1Hz for both of those.

[BuckoA51]

Hmm, yeah I had heard you say that the compatibility was much higher, but I didn't know if that included better/smoother scrolling due to refresh rate conversions etc, kinda want one now, so annoying to have all PAL material smooth just the odd NTSC stuff that stutters... just.. where can I fit three scalers

[Konsolkongen]

What model Genesis are you using? I have only had trouble with my Asian MegaDrive 2 when I did XRGB-3 > Gefen VGA to DVI scaler > TV. For some reason THAT stuttered like crazy in a game like Thunder Force III. But using the same MegaDrive without the Gefen connected to my TV it was fine.
And once I switched to a Japanese MegaDrive 1 instead (MD1 > XRGB-3 > Gefen > TV) the stuttering was all gone. Very strange. I believe the XRGB-Mini says my Japanese MegaDrive 1 inputs 59.7Hz, but it NEVER stutters

[BuckoA51]

I thought the Gefen always stuttered because there was basically no v-sync lock? I've a Mark 1 Sega Genesis. My PAL Mk 1 Megadrive did exactly the same. I should dig out my Mk 2 and try that I guess.

[Konsolkongen]

Saturn through XRGB-3 and Dreamcast with VGA never stuttered on the Gefen for me

[forin]

My mini just arrived today and I can finally put my holograph cards to rest. Before I fire up the xrgb-mini I have one question. As a US resident will I need a voltage converter for the mini because it is 100v? I know Japanese electronics are mostly compatible but before I fire it ups wanted to ask. Thanks!

[Fudoh]

has been asked a page back already. You're fine. I'm using my Mini with a 2:1 stepdown converter on a 230V outlet (so 115V effectively).

[forin]

Thanks for the help fudoh. Everything works great. My favorite setting for ps1 games via component on ps2 are;
Meister
1080p
Smart x2
Deep color on with rgb out (integra preamp says 36bit rgb in and out with this combo)
H scale 6
V scale 7
Sharpness 1

On white text over dark boarders with my nose the screen each pixel is clear and sharp with no ringing. It looks really really good, on par with an emulator. The rgb out seems to make the colors a little rich, playing around with the mini's color might be needed. All in all I love this thing, I am very content with this purchase so far.

[Capoz]

Hi to all i received my xrgb-mini and I have some question:

- why my intensity shuttle don't recognize my neogeo aes in RGB?

- why I didnt' see anything with wii connected via component with D-terminal adapter?

- why I can't see scanlines with xbox360 connected via hdmi?

- best settings for NeoGeo AES?

Thank you for everyone that can help me

[Fudoh]

- why my intensity shuttle don't recognize my neogeo aes in RGB?

because then Intensity can't work with the odd refreh rate the neo delivers. Have you tried switching off the v-sync option (this was broken in the earlier fw, so I'm not sure about the current one).

- why I didnt' see anything with wii connected via component with D-terminal adapter?

because you did something wrong. Should work without any problems.

- why I can't see scanlines with xbox360 connected via hdmi?

because Meister mode doesn't support the digital inputs.

- best settings for NeoGeo AES?

depends on your personal taste, really. The output resolutions deliver completely different pictures. 480p is very CRT-like. 720p looks like a tri-sync cab with 240p and 1080p looks like an emulator.