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[Formless God]

Why does almost every single shmup have these generic spaceships / airplanes destroying stuff that end in huge yellow explosions?

Because it's the "safest" theme to go with when making a STG, similar to how most RPGs love to splatter the generic Tolkien and medieval settings all over the place. Only a few Cave games do this however, and even then it isn't like we are chasing off the evilz invaderz in asteroid-ridden outer space, we are fighting fucking bees on fire and people who pull airships out of thin air.

compromise the gameplay like Otomedius and Touhou does.

Because having a few character sprites during bomb sequences and before boss fights totally interferes with one's ability to shoot and dodge, right ?

[Cagar]

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[Cagar]

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[BPzeBanshee]

Frankly I think we need more airplanes/spaceships and huge yellow explosions. Something with the quality of the Raiden Fighters games with maybe a few difficulty options to better approach the varying competency levels of us shmuppers.

I really just do not care about the graphics as long as it's consistent and it doesn't get in the way of the game.

Why do you feel more comfortable with spaceships than flying cake-monsters?

I find that spaceships are a lot less embarrassing to look at than transvestites/people squealing Japanese in high pitch/flying cake-monsters/stupid witch pornstar wannabes/etc. If the PAL copy of Raiden Fighters Aces ever comes to fruition I can be proud to have my TV rotated and showing it off as a true arcade game of the old era. I can't say the same for stuff like Deathsmiles although I do enjoy the game (it's consistent enough that I appreciate it and aren't fussed with it).

[SuperSoaker360]

There's always Seihou Banshiryuu. Does shooting down intergalactic spaceships with a flying maid and miko seem like a good enough mix for you?

[Jeneki]

So what's the deal with Star Parodier anyway? It's like, there's a flying PC-Engine that is recovering from the depression of being replaced by the CD expansion, so takes revenge by throwing game CDs at stuff.

[Kollision]

some wacky food for thought

Toilet Kids
Vacuum Kids
Harmful Park
Space Raiders
Rabio Lepus
Cho Aniki
The Flying Hamster

[Obscura]

Why do you feel more comfortable with spaceships than flying cake-monsters?

For the same reason that I watch over-the-top action movies more than I watch Disney cartoon full-lengths. Because flying around, shooting shit, and blowing shit up is cool and exciting.

[Deca]

For what it's worth I'd say that Garegga is the most artistically/aesthetically cohesive and brilliant shooter ever made, and it's "boring airplanes."

Also, the most common complaint anymore is that almost every shooter that comes out anymore has weird/goofy themes to it. People want traditional shooters with traditional settings and themes because there has been a lack of them in recent years.

[Eaglet]

For what it's worth I'd say that Garegga is the most artistically/aesthetically cohesive and brilliant shooter ever made, and it's "boring airplanes."

Perhaps we should form a club?
Garegga Elitists United.

Also, the most common complaint anymore is that almost every shooter that comes out anymore has weird/goofy themes to it. People want traditional shooters with traditional settings and themes because there has been a lack of them in recent years.

Yup.
I do not think it has as much to do with the lack of "traditional" as it has to do with a lack of the non-kitschy/embarassing though.

[MR_Soren]

Yes the theme matters. Would you like to be a dot dodging other dots, or a space ship dodging lasers and missiles?

Resonance is the reason they have space ships and airplanes. In these games, you are flying and shooting, so space ships and airplanes make the most sense for linking the game mechanics and theme in a way that players can identify with.


I disagree with the notion that all shoot-em-up makers go with a military aircraft theme. Most recent shoot-em-ups are character based, and some like Deathsmiles and Mushihimesama seem to be pretty popular. I think they make them character based to stand out within people's perception of the genre, and also to attract the "I play games for the characters" crowd.

[dunpeal2064]

For what it's worth I'd say that Garegga is the most artistically/aesthetically cohesive and brilliant shooter ever made, and it's "boring airplanes."

Also, the most common complaint anymore is that almost every shooter that comes out anymore has weird/goofy themes to it. People want traditional shooters with traditional settings and themes because there has been a lack of them in recent years.

Muted color pallet. Garegga is how its done. Such a beautiful game, I really wish i felt I was good enough to start seriously takling this game.

I really like some of the enemy ships from Armed Police Batrider as well. The huge helicopters that fly out look gorgeous. Haven't seen too many of the bosses, but from what I have seen, they are also epic.

[Aconcit]

I like the ship theme, and I'm glad that it's the cliche theme to go to in this genre, but I feel more involved in games that use a different theme. In my opinion games like Guwange look much better than games such as Dodonpachi.

I wouldn't mind seeing somebody use different materials such as plasticine, charcoal, or construction paper to create a bizarre parody of the genre.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fe4LFcA1ph8

Imagine something as freaky as this giant seal head popping out and spewing bullets at you.

[Deca]

I really wish i felt I was good enough to start seriously tackling this game.

You are! You're better than I was when I started, APB was the first game I tackled

No reason not to start familiarizing yourself with the game if it's something you eventually want to play seriously, I'm curious how you do starting out.

[Estebang]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fe4LFcA1ph8

Imagine something as freaky as this giant seal head popping out and spewing bullets at you.

Platypus has claymation graphics, but it's unfortunately very boring and sucky.

[Aconcit]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fe4LFcA1ph8

Imagine something as freaky as this giant seal head popping out and spewing bullets at you.

Platypus has claymation graphics, but it's unfortunately very boring and sucky.

This is actually how I pictured the plasticine artstyle but with a vertical scroller instead. That's too bad the game isn't that good.

[Casper<3]

Imagine something as freaky as this giant seal head popping out and spewing bullets at you.

Ever play Otomedius G?

[MintyTheCat]

I feel that a Shmup's Music and Art direction and style are very important as they serve to develop and instill the Game's "Concept". The best example of this I feel would be ikaruga as it hints at something underneath its surface. The Game's Poetry samples, Setting and even use of Colour all adds to make this Game something to behold. There are other Examples, but ikaruga instantly springs to mind.

I do not like Cute 'em ups personally; I'd much rather play a more 'serious' themed Shmup.

I tend to judge a Shmup on many aspects; if I was to use only a Shmup's "Artistic Theme" and perhaps the artistic execution I would perhaps favour modern day Shmups in favour of the Games of yesteryear. As an example: sure Image-Fight on the famicom looks somewhat simplistic and lacking compared to Deathsmiles or whatnot but it still offers other factors such as old school challenge that I rarely find these days. It is most certainly not just about how a Game looks in my Book.

Having said that, I do not mind what people care to enjoy playing Shmup wise, so long as the Developers keep making the type of Shmups that I like, I will continue to buy them and indeed play them and that's the most important thing about any Game

[Aconcit]

Imagine something as freaky as this giant seal head popping out and spewing bullets at you.

Ever play Otomedius G?

No, but my ex was telling me to play it if I can get past the moe aspect.

[Special World]

If you don't think art/theme matters in the games you play, you're deluding yourself. It matters a good deal. It's just that game designers have the common sense to not release something that's completely unpalatable.

[Elixir]

When I think "boring shmup", I think Touhou UFO. The first two and a quarter stages consist entirely of the same background. None of the bosses have especially interesting appearances or attacks, and the UFO system is tedious and, while can be ignored entirely, clearly isn't meant to be. Forcing players into bombing in order to categorize UFOs is clearly tedious, grazing somehow became entirely irrelevant, and I can't even remember the first stage's music at this point.

So dull. Just an incredibly dull game.

[Estebang]

I have to admit that I'd find Kenta Cho's shmups more interesting if they had proper graphics. I guess Tumiki Fighters is his most stylish work.

[Ed Oscuro]

Code: Select all

Autistic theme in shmups, does it really matter?

Real talk.

[Hagane]

When I think "boring shmup", I think Touhou UFO. The first two and a quarter stages consist entirely of the same background. None of the bosses have especially interesting appearances or attacks, and the UFO system is tedious and, while can be ignored entirely, clearly isn't meant to be. Forcing players into bombing in order to categorize UFOs is clearly tedious, grazing somehow became entirely irrelevant, and I can't even remember the first stage's music at this point.

So dull. Just an incredibly dull game.

I think the exact opposite way. UFO is by far my favorite Touhou game, both for its imaginative patterns (st2 youkai train, st3 boxing cloud old man, st4 ANCHORS, st5 tiger themed patterns, final boss in general).

I love the UFO system; for a change you have to go and truly fight your way through to get an item. Bombs being useful (but not in a boring way as in for example EoSD) is a good thing IMO, and maybe I'm missing something here but don't top players time out most patterns for grazing? It actually being decently difficult even at normal is a good plus.

On topic, theme in shooters, just like in any other genre, can add to the experience but it's a secondary aspect to me. But one of the reasons I started trying to play Raizing games was for their excellent art direction (save for Souky and Brave Blade which look horrible), so yeah it does matter to a point.

[null1024]

(save for Souky and Brave Blade which look horrible)

oh dear
Now I feel bad for liking how Souky looks.

[Elixir]

st2 youkai train

Oh, is this what people are calling it. All I was seeing was a planned influx of fairies expecting the player to clear the screen by using the UFO gimmick.

st3 boxing cloud old man

Many areas of the third stage expect you to have a UFO to clear the screen of bullets with. As for the boss herself, she's an absolute chore, and pretty much annoying to deal with.

st4 ANCHORS

An attack which shooters at the player. Yeah, haven't seen that before. I was fascinated with Kanako's final attack when MoF was released; didn't make the game better.

st5 tiger themed patterns

I don't even know what this is.

final boss in general

The final boss of UFO is interesting in the way it handles being the most mediocre final boss of the entire series, something I didn't think ZUN could do after SA. Maybe it's ZUN going easy on you after having to put up with the bullshit that was the chore in reaching her. I literally burst out laughing when one of her attacks focal choke point was only difficult due to visuals.

I love the UFO system; for a change you have to go and truly fight your way through to get an item.

Yeah, it's a chore. You have to fight your way to unnecessarily obtain UFOs throughout the entirety of the game otherwise you're going to be overwhelmed with patterns which weren't designed with intent to dodge traditionally in the first place. Mess up, and it's impromptu UFO juggling time.

Bombs being useful (but not in a boring way as in for example EoSD) is a good thing IMO

I don't see how bombing to categorize UFOs because there's so much shit on screen you can't even see what you're doing is "useful", it's shoehorning you into using bombs because the mechanic plays slot machine with the player. UFOs are always released as a certain colour, always move around in the same formation, so it's just a matter of timing.

and maybe I'm missing something here but don't top players time out most patterns for grazing? It actually being decently difficult even at normal is a good plus.

If you want to get technical, safespotting the second boss' first and second attacks would be better than actually dodging them. Difficulty does not make the game.

Let's get a little more technical:

- the first two and a quarter stages are of the same background (I like how you didn't mention this at all, like you somehow don't use visual cues or something)
- the first stage's final pattern is way longer than it should be
- most, if not all of the stages have fairies scheduled to be used with UFOs
- most, if not all of the second and third boss patterns suck
- Sanae B is hilariously broken, Marisa is utterly useless
- the highest current world record is on hard mode
- ignoring UFOs makes stages easier, collecting them makes bosses easier
- none of the music is notable whatsoever, I actually play with 0% bgm

Among other things.

I'm not going to lie, I hate this game. I don't like the bosses. I don't like the characters. I don'T like the scoring mechanic. I don't like the stage layout. I don't like the patterns. I don't like the music. I don't like how the entire game feels like a chore to play through. I don't like any of the shot types except for Sanae A, which seems inferior to both Reimu A and Sanae B. People say things like, "oh, Elixir, you should go back to Touhou. Heartbeam could use the competition." and shit like that. But I just can't, not like this.

EoSD's bombs may be "boring" but they were "interesting" enough for the world record holders to base their playing around, Reimu B's bomb being the most useful in this case. Why are we comparing UFO to EoSD, anyway? All of EoSD's characters, stages, music and environment is bursting with life, something which has progressively become stagnant since MoF was released. I don't know how you're able to say that, maybe with a straight face? Please don't do that. Maybe the visible hitbox and enemy marker is something you've grown accustomed to?

I'm sorry for bitching about this like an angry noob, which isn't really logical since I'm talking from a Lunatic player's standpoint, but this is literally the only game in the entire series that I don't find enjoyable to play at all. Even that Cirno thing and StB are fun to mess around with, even if I don't take them seriously at all.

[evil_ash_xero]

I didn't read all the posts, so please excuse me if I'm saying something monotonous.

I'm a little surprised anyone in this day and age would say that.
That was the case, years ago, but most of them now have people flying around. CAVE, whom you mentioned, have primarily released shmups with characters.
Even the ones with planes(Akai Katana, DDP) usually have a heavy emphasis on who's flying them.

The loli thing is retarded. I don't know why anyone likes it, other than to be slightly pervy(unless they really liked Rainbow Bright and My Little Pony, as children). That being said, I love the first DeathSmiles, and it's CAVE's best selling game. The second one is garbage though...well, at least looks-wise. DeathSmiles had lolis..but everything else was very imaginative and attractive.

I can't really think of too many other "generic space shooters" that are released anymore. Not by anyone popular, anyway. Raiden and Gradius still have them, but that's tradition. Treasure's are ships, and not characters. But they've only made 3(or 4) shmups. G Rev stick to that a lot(BD, UD, Strania), but they haven't made many games either.

I'm thinking maybe you've been emulating a lot of older arcade titles, to get that impression. That hasn't been the shmup landscape for a long time.
Actually, to have ships or whatever now, is a rarity, to some degree.

Oh, and yes, it does matter to me. I like interesting designs, but everyone has a different opinion of what that is. For me, Guwange, Thunderforce IV, and ESPGaluda II have some of the best designs around. For others, they might be all about Muchi Muchi Pork. For the record, I didn't like it's designs(I almost did...but it was just TOO cute).

[Hagane]

Yeah, it's a chore. You have to fight your way to unnecessarily obtain UFOs throughout the entirety of the game otherwise you're going to be overwhelmed with patterns which weren't designed with intent to dodge traditionally in the first place. Mess up, and it's impromptu UFO juggling time.

Working to get your score isn't a bad thing.

I don't see how bombing to categorize UFOs because there's so much shit on screen you can't even see what you're doing is "useful", it's shoehorning you into using bombs because the mechanic plays slot machine with the player. UFOs are always released as a certain colour, always move around in the same formation, so it's just a matter of timing.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but players at top replays seem to bomb at key spots to maximize the UFOs, not because they can't see what they are doing.

If you want to get technical, safespotting the second boss' first and second attacks would be better than actually dodging them. Difficulty does not make the game.

You said grazing was useless, yet I see a lot of grazing, to the extreme of timing out bosses to get as much graze as possible. I don't see how this answer backs that up, can you expand please?

- the first two and a quarter stages are of the same background (I like how you didn't mention this at all, like you somehow don't use visual cues or something)

Stages and visuals in general are awful in Touhou save for the some ornate patterns so I didn't really feel pointing that out was really necessary. At least stages in 12 are rendered a bit better than first-gen PS1 games, I guess?

- Sanae B is hilariously broken, Marisa is utterly useless

Is this out of date? http://en.touhouwiki.net/wiki/World_record

Marisa A seems to be pretty far from useless, judging from those replays.

- the highest current world record is on hard mode

Doesn't seem like a serious flaw.

- ignoring UFOs makes stages easier,

Well yeah I think it would be bad if the game got easier with scoring?

collecting them makes bosses easier

How?

- none of the music is notable whatsoever, I actually play with 0% bgm

I like most of the music in 12.

EoSD's bombs may be "boring" but they were "interesting" enough for the world record holders to base their playing around, Reimu B's bomb being the most useful in this case.

Why is using them mostly to milk Mei Ling good and using them to build larger UFOs at different spots bad?

Why are we comparing UFO to EoSD, anyway?

I find EoSD to be quite unremarkable in general, and it feels way too slow for my tastes. Same for PCB.

[Elixir]

Working to get your score isn't a bad thing.

You can miss blue 点 items in EoSD, it doesn't matter that much. You can miss the timing of a UFO being a certain colour and there's your run gone. It could be an enjoyable experience, rather than an isolated one.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but players at top replays seem to bomb at key spots to maximize the UFOs, not because they can't see what they are doing.

Much like top players in SA and EoSD, they can dodge patterns, or they can bomb which is better in the long run. For example, stage four's first cat appearance in SA. There's really no reason NOT to bomb as soon as it appears. However, in UFO, a lot of the time (for example, the fourth stage), people bomb in order to collect tokens.

You said grazing was useless, yet I see a lot of grazing, to the extreme of timing out bosses to get as much graze as possible. I don't see how this answer backs that up, can you expand please?

I didn't say grazing was "useless", I said it takes a back seat because the premise of UFO is.. UFOs.

Stages and visuals in general are awful in Touhou save for the some ornate patterns so I didn't really feel pointing that out was really necessary. At least stages in 12 are rendered a bit better than first-gen PS1 games, I guess?

ZUN knows how to do backgrounds quite well. Take MoF's third stage for example. The point which I've been making over and over again is that it's the SAME background LOOPING itself for more than two stages. How is that not "dull"?

Is this out of date? http://en.touhouwiki.net/wiki/World_record

Marisa A seems to be pretty far from useless, judging from those replays.

It's not out of date, but it's a list which of course will mention all characters. There's a single Marisa B in the Top 10 SA leaderboards on royalflare, just because that exists doesn't mean I'm going to suddenly start thinking she's superior to Reimu A, which all other replays consist of.

Doesn't seem like a serious flaw.

What difficulty do you play on? If the answer is "Hard", I can understand you being fine with it. If the highest score is currently on Hard, why even bother with Lunatic?

How is "an entire difficulty being irrelevant", not a serious flaw?

Well yeah I think it would be bad if the game got easier with scoring?

Avoiding UFOs makes the stages easier because you don't have to focus on them as well as dodging.

How?

More UFOs = more lives/bombs to spend on bosses. Less UFOs = less lives to spend on bosses, harder bosses, easier stages.

I like most of the music in 12.

I don't care for any of it, at all. Here is UFO's entire soundtrack.

http://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL2099ADD91C9CF674

Here's one track from SA.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rMTsG_KszJw

And SA's soundtrack is mediocre in comparison to EoSD's. I still feel like UFO's fifth and sixth stage themes are reasonable, but it's too much of a chore to reach them.

Why is using them mostly to milk Mei Ling good and using them to build larger UFOs at different spots bad?

I've already explained this. Why should I be forced to bomb and juggle UFOs in order to progress? I'm not forced to bomb on Mei Ling.

I find EoSD to be quite unremarkable in general, and it feels way too slow for my tastes. Same for PCB.

I find SA's first three stages boring as hell, but at least there's the other stages to make up for it. As for EoSD, if you're not acquainted with no hitbox/no enemy marker, and not being able to auto-collect or gain full power without missing a few items, I can understand why you wouldn't like it.

[chum]

You can miss blue 点 items in EoSD

miss the sakuya safespot and there's your run gone

etc