XRGB-mini Framemeister

[acem77]

Now its doing it in both modes and toggleing its does not help.
I need to see if its a flaw in the minis rendering or if its a side effect created by tv.

[Fudoh]

try another cable. What about 720p ?

I have to use RGB anyway (because of the chroma bug), so I can't use deep color. Ends up just like DVI. I get proper full range output (0-255) for 240p and 480i inputs. For 480p inputs the black offset is shifted (too dark), but that's easily fixed using the brightness setting. Since settings are remembered per input and per resolution, that's fine.

Oh, and you get HDMI audio just fine, even with the output set to DVI.

[acem77]

try another cable. What about 720p ?

I have to use RGB anyway (because of the chroma bug), so I can't use deep color. Ends up just like DVI. I get proper full range output (0-255) for 240p and 480i inputs. For 480p inputs the black offset is shifted (too dark), but that's easily fixed using the brightness setting. Since settings are remembered per input and per resolution, that's fine.

Oh, and you get HDMI audio just fine, even with the output set to DVI.

same thing in 720p, did not try another cable but cant hurt to try.
as of now its seems to happen more to the ps2 running a ps1 game. (an odd side note my tv refuses to diplay ps1 games while playing it on a ps2 model 1, i get an invalid signal error. when using component cables directly)
I will test more things and post an update...
seem to affect the ps2 playing ps1 games 90% now and other systems 5-10%
about every 16secs once it starts.

[Fudoh]

Try setting the sync mode to off instead of auto. Does it change anything ?

[acem77]

Figured out the problem, if my tvs video profile is set to game I get video flicker.

Found out by changing the hdmi ports on the tv. One port stopped the flickering.
After comparing the 2 hdmi ports settings I found they have separate video profiles.
If I use any port once I set it to “game” I get the flicker.

I matched the profile as close as possible between game and standard user profiles
And it still continues flicker while in the game profile. I can’t reproduce the issue under the standard profile
So what other parameters are different can’t be manipulated using the user configurable options.

Hope this helps. It’s one more thing to check.

I have a LG55LW6500 3d lcd led tv

[Seraphic]

it's been a long time, but as far as I recall: PS1 games only, via HDMI, output set to limited range RGB.

And if set to full range RGB? Seeing I'll use the mini for PS1 games guess it;s a non issue.
Would like to use PS3 for PS2 games v.i HDMI though with full range RGB.

[Fudoh]

If you get a Mini, using an actual PS2 for PS2 games is the better choice. Other that the lag, the bad deinterlacing and the blurry upscaling I don't see issues with PS2 games on a PS3.

[Seraphic]

If you get a Mini, using an actual PS2 for PS2 games is the better choice. Other that the lag, the bad deinterlacing and the blurry upscaling I don't see issues with PS2 games on a PS3.

Yeah, I know what you are saying. But the PS2 games I am interested are native 480p. So sending them from PS3 in native 480p v.i HDMI into Mini (scanlines) or HD3000 for scaling should work nicely, no?

Also, since PS1/PS2 games were analog consoles, is it recommended outputting them with full range RGB if your display supports it or stick to limited?

I bought that It works great, I saw no quality loss compared to the D-terminal adapter that came with the XRGB-3.

So I take it the cable they are selling is third party? Does Micomsoft sell their XRGB3 D-terminal adapter on their store?

[Fudoh]

Doesn't matter. 480p via analogue component is usually seen as limited range (while you can't really put it this way). RGBs connections on the other hand are full range.

[TurboCro]

Update:

Neo-Geo works nicely using the RGB cables. Unfortunately, I need to cut some traces so I can get rid of horrible vertical lines (known issue). Will post up pics after its done (hopefully I will not kill my console in this process).

SNES: still no dice. Workin on it.

Big thank you to Fudoh and shmups! Getting the Mini to work properly has taken over my life, and I'm loving every minute.

[acem77]

one thing i noticed vertical bars are reduced on all system that exhibit them.
One thing that stood out was the amount of vertical bars when using the powerpak flash cart on an rgb nes. I barely notice them now. Same with my turbo duo.

[TurboCro]

one thing i noticed vertical bars are reduced on all system that exhibit them.
One thing that stood out was the amount of vertical bars when using the powerpak flash cart on an rgb nes. I barely notice them now. Same with my turbo duo.

http://www.mmmonkey.co.uk/console/neo/video.htm

On the Neo its pretty bad.

I miss my duo

[Konsolkongen]

One thing that stood out was the amount of vertical bars when using the powerpak flash cart on an rgb nes. I barely notice them now.

Is this worse using a Powerpak than the original games? Or is it perhaps related to changing the IC in the console needed for the Powerpak to work on a RGB modded system?
If all goes well I'll be RGB modifying a NES all the way to hell and back next week

[acem77]

One thing that stood out was the amount of vertical bars when using the powerpak flash cart on an rgb nes. I barely notice them now.

Is this worse using a Powerpak than the original games? Or is it perhaps related to changing the IC in the console needed for the Powerpak to work on a RGB modded system?
If all goes well I'll be RGB modifying a NES all the way to hell and back next week

On every modded NES it shows more jail bars. I bet it does on stock nes systems using composite video. I never tried….
I don’t think it has anything to do with the IC replacement I discovered.
There are so many more components in the powerpak that creates a chance for RF interference.

At least I see less using the mini and my new tv. Over all everything looks sharper and cleaner with this new set up, LG lcd tv & mini VS Samsung dlp & xrgb2 plus

[Konsolkongen]

Thank you for elaborating

[Retro Access]

One thing that stood out was the amount of vertical bars when using the powerpak flash cart on an rgb nes. I barely notice them now.

Is this worse using a Powerpak than the original games? Or is it perhaps related to changing the IC in the console needed for the Powerpak to work on a RGB modded system?
If all goes well I'll be RGB modifying a NES all the way to hell and back next week

On every modded NES it shows more jail bars. I bet it does on stock nes systems using composite video. I never tried….
I don’t think it has anything to do with the IC replacement I discovered.
There are so many more components in the powerpak that creates a chance for RF interference.

At least I see less using the mini and my new tv. Over all everything looks sharper and cleaner with this new set up, LG lcd tv & mini VS Samsung dlp & xrgb2 plus

Stock NES has jailbars on composite, Famicom is worse. Swap out Famicom PPU for NES one and cram it full of capacitors=less jailbars. The jailbar problem with NES is system wide. XRGB cannot fix things like this because it's in the output signal.

[darthcloud]

Stock NES has jailbars on composite, Famicom is worse. Swap out Famicom PPU for NES one and cram it full of capacitors=less jailbars. The jailbar problem with NES is system wide. XRGB cannot fix things like this because it's in the output signal.

Yes it can, with a good filter it's possible to remove the jailbar present in the input so that the XRGB output look fine.

This look to be the case with the mini cause with my XRGB3 I always saw those evil jailbar and with the mini I don't see them at all.

So the mini do really a good in filtering that.

[Seraphic]

I have an HD3000 and want to also order a XRGB-3 or XRGB-Mini to handle 240p.
Would you have better results with A, B or C?

A: PS2 (240p/480i) -> RGB Scart -> XRGB-3 (480p) -> VGA -> Optoma HD3000 (1080p) -> HDMI

B: PS2 (240p/480i) -> RGB Scart -> XRGB-Mini (480p) -> HDMI -> Optoma HD3000 (1080p) -> HDMI

C: PS2 (240p/480i) -> RGB Scart -> XRGB-Mini (1080p) -> HDMI

[darthcloud]

I have an HD3000 and want to also order a XRGB-3 or XRGB-Mini to handle 240p.
Would you have better results with A, B or C?

A: PS2 (240p/480i) -> RGB Scart -> XRGB-3 (480p) -> VGA -> Optoma HD3000 (1080p) -> HDMI

B: PS2 (240p/480i) -> RGB Scart -> XRGB-Mini (480p) -> HDMI -> Optoma HD3000 (1080p) -> HDMI

C: PS2 (240p/480i) -> RGB Scart -> XRGB-Mini (1080p) -> HDMI

Personalty I hate daisy-chaining too many device so I would go with C.

It's what I do and I'm really happy with the scaling quality of the mini.

[SGGG2]

I have an HD3000 and want to also order a XRGB-3 or XRGB-Mini to handle 240p.
Would you have better results with A, B or C?

A: PS2 (240p/480i) -> RGB Scart -> XRGB-3 (480p) -> VGA -> Optoma HD3000 (1080p) -> HDMI

B: PS2 (240p/480i) -> RGB Scart -> XRGB-Mini (480p) -> HDMI -> Optoma HD3000 (1080p) -> HDMI

C: PS2 (240p/480i) -> RGB Scart -> XRGB-Mini (1080p) -> HDMI

I would definitely get a mini for 240p. The shaky v-sync of the XRGB-3 can be real bad depending on your set and chaining it into the Optoma first will not fix the issue. A Gefen VGA to DVI Scaler *Plus* will do the job.

In my experience there's no perfect solution for 480i. Sometimes I use the Optoma for deinterlacing, otherwise I use the XRGB-3's B1 mode (linedoubling) with a light 480i scanline setting and feed it into the Optoma for upscaling. Depending on the title this actually looks really good. I haven't seen an Edge or Mini in action, so no comment there.

[Retro Access]

Stock NES has jailbars on composite, Famicom is worse. Swap out Famicom PPU for NES one and cram it full of capacitors=less jailbars. The jailbar problem with NES is system wide. XRGB cannot fix things like this because it's in the output signal.

Yes it can, with a good filter it's possible to remove the jailbar present in the input so that the XRGB output look fine.

This look to be the case with the mini cause with my XRGB3 I always saw those evil jailbar and with the mini I don't see them at all.

So the mini do really a good in filtering that.

I just thought the issue with NES was so bad as to be visible even with filtering. If you are able to filter it out entirely I'd be curious what PPU you have and what mod you used? Thinking of modding a NES to RGB myself, not taken the plunge yet but the amount of people reporting that they still see jailbars even with the Mini puts me off. I had it down to bare minimum with the composite video PPUs taken from a NES and put in a Famicom but I still see it, if faintly.

[-SD-]

How flexible are the A/V input options on the Mini? Is it possible to have only the video going through the mini Din8 (RGB IN) and the audio through the L & R phono inputs, or are those audio inputs just for use with the Component/S-Video connection?

[grahf]

How flexible are the A/V input options on the Mini? Is it possible to have only the video going through the mini Din8 (RGB IN) and the audio through the L & R phono inputs, or are those audio inputs just for use with the Component/S-Video connection?

I'm pretty sure you can't do that. You have to specifically choose which input you want, whether it be RGB or AV, etc. There aren't any audio input settings anywhere.

Just curious, but what are you trying to do?

[darthcloud]

Stock NES has jailbars on composite, Famicom is worse. Swap out Famicom PPU for NES one and cram it full of capacitors=less jailbars. The jailbar problem with NES is system wide. XRGB cannot fix things like this because it's in the output signal.

Yes it can, with a good filter it's possible to remove the jailbar present in the input so that the XRGB output look fine.

This look to be the case with the mini cause with my XRGB3 I always saw those evil jailbar and with the mini I don't see them at all.

So the mini do really a good in filtering that.

I just thought the issue with NES was so bad as to be visible even with filtering. If you are able to filter it out entirely I'd be curious what PPU you have and what mod you used? Thinking of modding a NES to RGB myself, not taken the plunge yet but the amount of people reporting that they still see jailbars even with the Mini puts me off. I had it down to bare minimum with the composite video PPUs taken from a NES and put in a Famicom but I still see it, if faintly.

I made various experiment over the years with the NES RGB mod.

First I have both RC2003B (from VS. Tennis) and RB2003B (from playchoice) PPU and their is no difference between the two.

I have three modded AV Famicom (HVC-101).

-One using the NJM2267 base amp: http://gamesx.com/wiki/doku.php?id=av:nes_rgb_amplifier

-One using CXA1645M amp I bought from Japan:


-One using CXA2075 amp on a pcb I've build inspired by the previous one:


My result on XRGB3:

The NJM2267 is the one who look the worse. Jailbar are very present.

Both CXA base one look the same. Jail bar are less visible but you can still easily spot them.

Mini result:

All three are jailbar free!!

I'm using modified SHVC-010 cable with my FCs. I cut the SCART end and put a VGA plug so I can plug it into my Extron MVX switcher. Then my switcher can output into both my XRGB3 and my mini.

Hope this help. I don't remember seeing other report for NES/FC RGB mod with the mini in this thread.

[acem77]

Jail bar update.

The image_mode will help with the jailbars.
standard, game_1 seem to decrease them by 80%
any other mode will display the jailbar patterns at full stength.

[fagin]

Issues with the SNES and no picture with the Frameister:

Forgive me if this has already been discussed and tried.....

Has anyone tried feeding the standard video sync signal through an Extron RGB interface (prior to XRGB) to stabalise.... if so what has been the results?

[Konsolkongen]

The NJM2267 is the one who look the worse. Jailbar are very present.

Both CXA base one look the same. Jail bar are less visible but you can still easily spot them.

Mini result:

All three are jailbar free!!

Hmm I'll be using the NJM booster as recommended by RGB32E so I have pretty high hopes for this one. I'll be using a US NES Toaster though, like RGB32E.

http://gamesx.com/wiki/doku.php?id=av:nes_rgb_amplifier

Is there a reason that the Sync output lacks a 1000pF compared to the RGB out?

EDIT: A friend of mine found this:
http://www.made-by-bacteria.com/viewtop ... f=20&t=148

Is there anything gained by separating pin 17 on the PPU as well and using it as dedicated video GND? I can see that RGB32E didn't do this on his.
I guess using shielded wires for color would be a good idea as well?

[Moosmann]

Pin 17 on RGB PPU is not used. It don`t reduce the jailbars problem (Castlevania 2 Titlescreen etc.)
. I already tested them. I also connected Pin 17 to +5V but without any difference (tested on a cheap RP2C04 PPU, because i don`t kill an 2C03B PPU) .

I recommend to use short wires and to remove the 100nF for the THS OP Amp (NES/FC Mod only).

The grounded RGB Pins 14-16 from a normal NES PPU is (maybe) to change the color palette. If i connect one from them to +5V, the colors are difference. Try at your own risk

I got in touch with one of the engineers a month ago. They had a system failure early this year which has delayed new firmware releases a bit

Das wird sehr oft aus Ausrede verwendet, weil die Firmen ungern zugeben möchten ein unausgereiftes Produkt auf dem Markt gebracht zu haben.

Greetings Markus

[Konsolkongen]

Pin 17 on RGB PPU is not used. It don`t reduce the jailbars problem (Castlevania 2 Titlescreen etc.)
. I already tested them. I also connected Pin 17 to +5V but without any difference (tested on a cheap RP2C04 PPU, because i don`t kill an 2C03B PPU) .

Are you sure? According to this guy it's GND:
http://www.made-by-bacteria.com/viewtop ... f=20&t=148

EDIT:

So I wired ppu pin 17 ground (video ground) into ppu pin 20 ground (ppu main ground) and this made the jailbars disappear again

So it turns out I SHOULDN'T disconnect pin 17 after all... So there is no separate video GND needed it seems.

I recommend to use short wires and to remove the 100nF for the THS OP Amp (NES/FC Mod only).

Well I already made the amp according to RGB32E's link. It needs another 75ohm capacitor and a 1000pF (two, if the sync output needs one as well?). I was probably too tired when I drew it up because I forgot to add space for the 75ohms. That's why they are on the bottom side I seriously doubt it makes any difference though

http://i40.photobucket.com/albums/e236/ ... C00265.jpg
http://i40.photobucket.com/albums/e236/ ... C00264.jpg

My friend is looking into having some PCB's made for this amp, so when that's done it will be much easier to test without the 100uF's. There are no 100nF's so I assume you mean 100uF?

EDIT:

Do not I repeat do NOT using the "rgb nes ++" amp from the gamesx wiki. It's exactly the same thing as this amp just with 1000 pf caps from the outputs to ground. These caps decrease the image quality and do nothing good at all.

Is that what you mean?

I got in touch with one of the engineers a month ago. They had a system failure early this year which has delayed new firmware releases a bit

Das wird sehr oft aus Ausrede verwendet, weil die Firmen ungern zugeben möchten ein unausgereiftes Produkt auf dem Markt gebracht zu haben.

Perhaps

[Konsolkongen]

Been reading some more of the thread on made-by-bacteria, and now I can't seem to make sense of it anymore Drakon on made by bacteria says that the 1000pF's should definitely be removed and something about using small caps from the PPU's RGB lines to GND? But then again, he is convertering this to S-video...
RGB32E threw me this link to gamesx: http://gamesx.com/wiki/doku.php?id=av:nes_rgb_amplifier . He even showed me a picture of his PPU and how his wires are connected: http://img694.imageshack.us/img694/3194 ... tion00.jpg
- THAT makes sense to me and I can do that easily. Furthermore RGB32E is using a Toaster US NES like I will be using and from the looks of his pictures it looks fucking awesome

It seems like Moosmann has a lot of knowledge on this topic as well, so any thoughts you have are most welcome. Looking at RGB32E's schematic here: http://gamesx.com/wiki/doku.php?id=av:nes_rgb_amplifier - what would you change, and why?