Difficult RPGs

[Moniker]

No mention of "The Dark Spire?" It's probably the hardest RPG on the DS.

Forgot about that one. Meant to play it once I finished up the Etrian Odyssey games... I'll let you know when that happens.

[Aguraki]

I don't know if I'm too old but all the RPGs I used to love as a kid don't appeal me no more.
Tried to play secret of mana kind or few others on snes or other supports and I find them incredibly dumb and boring
Only one I found great was earthbound on NES and the sequel on SNES cause its full of awesomness the other missed.
Otherwise I can only see myself playing dungeon master's likes,as they are more pure survival and puzzle games than "RPG" and story.

Anyone has the same feeling as me?
And anyone based on what I said can recommend an "adult" RPG?
I'm not sure the idea of adult and RPG can come together but if u see what I'm talking about go ahead and shoot your games.
By adult I don't mean gore or sex or violence,I just want something that doesnt feel too "sugar".

edit:sorry for slight derail but didn't want to make own thread.

[Estebang]

I think Aguraki wants to play Demon's Souls, Dark Souls, NieR, and SMT Nocturne. Along with Silent Hill 2 and Killer7, they're some of the most truly mature (not simply M-rated) games ever made.

[Mischief Maker]

I don't know if I'm too old but all the RPGs I used to love as a kid don't appeal me no more.
Tried to play secret of mana kind or few others on snes or other supports and I find them incredibly dumb and boring
Only one I found great was earthbound on NES and the sequel on SNES cause its full of awesomness the other missed.
Otherwise I can only see myself playing dungeon master's likes,as they are more pure survival and puzzle games than "RPG" and story.

Anyone has the same feeling as me?
And anyone based on what I said can recommend an "adult" RPG?
I'm not sure the idea of adult and RPG can come together but if u see what I'm talking about go ahead and shoot your games.
By adult I don't mean gore or sex or violence,I just want something that doesnt feel too "sugar".

edit:sorry for slight derail but didn't want to make own thread.

Well I think there are 2 important dimensions to making a good video game: escapism and challenge, but challenge is the only one of the two that is essential. The last challenging jRPG I ever played was Phantasy Star 2. I think it was a boneheaded move including a map book with that game and if you're playing a rom, stay away from gamefaqs, because PS2 was an RPG with leveling and an escalating sense of power that required really no grinding because you would get all the money and all the XP you needed from random encounters as you tried to find your way through the challenging mazes of the game's maps.

Modern jRPGs (I mean Final Fantasy 2 onward, including Phantasy Star 4) are all about the escapism, the cutscenes, and are almost devoid of challenge. I remember playing Final Fantasy 2 for the first time and realizing that this was as complex as the dungeons were gonna get: a straight shot to the boss with little side branches here and there that lead directly to a dead end and a treasure chest. The "challenge" of these games was spending sufficient time grinding to be able to get the HP and spells necessary to handle the next boss. Victory is an absolute certainty, it's just a question of how long it will take you.

Is it any wonder latter-era jRPGs started adding superfluous card games and action segments to keep the player awake?

Better plots are not the answer. You prefer dungeon puzzlers for the challenge.

[Estebang]

The last challenging jRPG I ever played was Phantasy Star 2.

Sounds like you've ignored the entire genre's output beyond whatever's popular for the past 25 years. Your definition of "modern" JRPGs beginning with Final Fantasy 2 is nothing short of ludicrous, even without mentioning that the original FF and Dragon Quest games required FAR more grinding than their later sequels. FF7 was the first truly "modern" JRPG: even games like Wild Arms that came a short time before were still very much products of the SNES school of development.

Also, I think it's rather telling that the PS2 Sega Ages version of Phantasy Star 2 includes difficulty settings and frameskipping. Sega knew the game was unplayable.

[The Coop]

The 7th Saga. Even grinding out the ass in this game won't help you as much as it should. Various parts of the game just make the difficulty ramp up, and there's even a spot where you simply can't win unless you leveled up A LOT (not in a "this is a tough fight" way, in a literal way... you won't be able to win).

[RNGmaster]

SMT Strange Journey (DS) is really hard. Fusing demons for some of the later bosses can take forever.

[cj iwakura]

Persona 4 on hard mode is quite the challenge.

No it isn't. It's easy.

Devil Summoner: Raidou Kuzunoha VS The Soulless Army's Devil Mode, that's a challenge.

Enemies do three times normal damage, Raidou's damage is halved, MAG cost is through the roof.

Persona 4 Hard is a joke. Nocturne is a much better example.


That said, another real tough RPG is Vanguard Bandits. The original Sega CD Lunars are no joke, either. the PS1 remakes on the other hand... dumbed down is an understatement.

[Mischief Maker]

Also, I think it's rather telling that the PS2 Sega Ages version of Phantasy Star 2 includes difficulty settings and frameskipping. Sega knew the game was unplayable.

In much the same way as the original Tetris was "unplayable" before they added the ability to put inconvenient pieces aside.

Such talk on a shmups enthusiast forum, really!

[Zaarock]

I remember Valkyrie Profile 2: Silmeria being very difficult, but I probably sucked at it too Gotta give it another go sometime.

[Ruldra]

I remember Valkyrie Profile 2: Silmeria being very difficult, but I probably sucked at it too Gotta give it another go sometime.

Played the whole thing and never had problems with it. The post-game dungeon could probably offer a challenge but it ain't that hard either.

[Hagane]

FF7 was the first truly "modern" JRPG: even games like Wild Arms that came a short time before were still very much products of the SNES school of development.

What makes you put FF7 in the "modern JRPG" category? It's basically the same game as FF1 with some minor adjustements. Tales of Phantasia and Star Ocean would be better examples of "modern" JRPGs IMO as they are a noticeable evolution over the basic DQ formula.

Also Fire Emblem The Sacred Stones is ridiculously easy. You can beat 99% of the game with Seth alone.

On topic, the Oath in Felghana is challenging for the genre. Mass Effect 2 can be quite hard too at the higher difficulty levels, especially with Vanguard.

[DragonInstall]

Persona 4 on hard mode is quite the challenge.

No it isn't. It's easy.

You may be right. It was a long time ago, but I think I made it hard on myself rather than the game. It was my first play through and I wanted to get as man S-links as possible. All the dungeons I completed in 1-2 game days, with 3 being at most. So yeah many enemies if I wasn't careful with my persona management would 1 shot me. Same goes for the bosses. Plus I was racking in little money so equipment / item management came into play a lot.

It was really challenging and fun when I did it like that though, because the games system really shines when the odds are against you.

[alamone]

Berwick Saga (PS2). It's a SRPG/SLG using hex grid.

1. You can only save once every five turns.
2. Your weapons break constantly and randomly. It can be "green" (best condition) and still break.
3. Deaths are all permanent. Most people die in about 2 hits.
4. Level up stat bonus is random and if you're unlucky, is just HP+1.
5. Ridiculous class-change requirements.
6. You have to cough up money to even use half the characters.
7. Most maps have a turn limit (e.g. defeat boss by turn 24)
8. Money is really short so you have to "capture" enemies by bringing them to low HP with red cross and capturing them.
Then you get a money bonus and their items. But this ALSO WORKS IN REVERSE! You have to cough up a jail fee to get them back.
9. You constantly miss your attack until you advance your weapon skill enough. Also your shield skill doesn't go up unless you actually block an attack.
10. Your horse actually has HP and will die if it takes too many hits (takes same damage as your character). Compare to your usual SRPG where your horse is just part of your character.
11. I can go on and on about how unreasonable this game is

If you can get the "ALL35" in this game (meeting certain requirements, like recruit all characters, no deaths, etc)
you are a true masochist. (I got "ALL35".)

Unfortunately this game is Japanese only, so it's not really that well known, but it sold enough copies to get a re-release.
The music is also excellent, but the graphics are not that impressive (small 2D sprites).

[Necronopticous]

I don't know if I'm too old but all the RPGs I used to love as a kid don't appeal me no more.
Tried to play secret of mana kind or few others on snes or other supports and I find them incredibly dumb and boring
Only one I found great was earthbound on NES and the sequel on SNES cause its full of awesomness the other missed.
Otherwise I can only see myself playing dungeon master's likes,as they are more pure survival and puzzle games than "RPG" and story.

Anyone has the same feeling as me?
And anyone based on what I said can recommend an "adult" RPG?
I'm not sure the idea of adult and RPG can come together but if u see what I'm talking about go ahead and shoot your games.
By adult I don't mean gore or sex or violence,I just want something that doesnt feel too "sugar".

edit:sorry for slight derail but didn't want to make own thread.

My favorite of the series, and probably one of the best games ever made: http://mother3.fobby.net/

[EU03]

No one played Resonance of Fate/End of Eternity?
It was a shame it got lost during the FFXIII launch. I truly loved it since it didn't give you any bullshit in terms of gameplay, no tutorials or handholding. From a modern RPG! From the very start, the game just goes "here's all the tools that you'll need, go figure out how to win".
And how to win indeed. The game gives you the option to retry battles since it's pretty likely you'll die a lot.
Each fight is pretty cerebral, since you're always in danger of being one turn short of getting the critical hit you need. Even as I got the swing of things, there was always that one bastard monster that I failed to land the proper amount of scratch damage and ended up ruining my whole party.

[Elixir]

No one played Resonance of Fate/End of Eternity?
It was a shame it got lost during the FFXIII launch. I truly loved it since it didn't give you any bullshit in terms of gameplay, no tutorials or handholding. From a modern RPG! From the very start, the game just goes "here's all the tools that you'll need, go figure out how to win".
And how to win indeed. The game gives you the option to retry battles since it's pretty likely you'll die a lot.
Each fight is pretty cerebral, since you're always in danger of being one turn short of getting the critical hit you need. Even as I got the swing of things, there was always that one bastard monster that I failed to land the proper amount of scratch damage and ended up ruining my whole party.

There is a tutorial for RoF, it's the guy opposite the Arena manager. I 1000/1000'd that game. Not something I would call hard, but definitely one of the most unique battle systems I've ever touched.

[LtC]

No one played Resonance of Fate/End of Eternity?
It was a shame it got lost during the FFXIII launch. I truly loved it since it didn't give you any bullshit in terms of gameplay, no tutorials or handholding. From a modern RPG! From the very start, the game just goes "here's all the tools that you'll need, go figure out how to win".
And how to win indeed. The game gives you the option to retry battles since it's pretty likely you'll die a lot.
Each fight is pretty cerebral, since you're always in danger of being one turn short of getting the critical hit you need. Even as I got the swing of things, there was always that one bastard monster that I failed to land the proper amount of scratch damage and ended up ruining my whole party.

There is a tutorial for RoF, it's the guy opposite the Arena manager. I 1000/1000'd that game. Not something I would call hard, but definitely one of the most unique battle systems I've ever touched.

You haven't played Valkyrie Profile 2? The battle system felt basically the same except it falls short in every aspect. Its biggest flaw was the lack of variety.

[iconoclast]

You haven't played Valkyrie Profile 2? The battle system felt basically the same except it falls short in every aspect. Its biggest flaw was the lack of variety.

I haven't played VP2, but yeah, that's the biggest problem with RoF. You can win nearly every battle with the same strategies, more or less. I wouldn't say it was hard either, but I still liked it a lot. At least it redeemed tri-Ace after their previous abominations (SO4 and IU).

[Ruldra]

RoF's battle system is certainly unique but it gets repetitive fast. Along with the grinding and the rather unappealing story (which can basically be summed as "mercenaries doing weird jobs for weird people"), the game turned out to be very disappointing to me. After the stupid Christmas chapter I had enough and got rid of it.

[Elixir]

Resonance of Fate's Christmas themed chapter is merely a few hours away from the end of the game. There isn't any grinding in RoF either; unless you're grinding for hex patterns from a certain area (of which is largely irrelevant unless you want to connect everything to the Arena), levels are largely irrelevant and gun customisation rules supreme.

I didn't think the story was anything to write home about but the battle system was enough to keep me playing through. I wish the game had Arena DLC though, they could have really whored that out for far longer than they did. The final bosses of the Arena are also pretty disappointing (or disappointingly easy..) compared to that of the post-game dungeon.

NieR, Resonance of Fate and Tales of Vesperia are the best jRPGs of this gen so far. And this is coming from someone who has good taste in games.

[iconoclast]

NieR, Resonance of Fate and Tales of Vesperia are the best jRPGs of this gen so far.

I'd add The Last Remnant to this, but otherwise I agree. If that game wasn't designed so oddly, it would probably get the attention it deserves. (But then again, that's kinda why it's great.)

[EU03]

There is a tutorial for RoF, it's the guy opposite the Arena manager. I 1000/1000'd that game. Not something I would call hard, but definitely one of the most unique battle systems I've ever touched.

Oh, I'm aware of there being a tutorial. But the idea of not having to fumble through the game telling you how to use an item was so refreshing.
I suppose the initial difficulty comes from getting acquainted with the battle system. But I was so glad that the difficulty didn't come from artificially inflating enemy stats or whatever, since as Elixir mentioned the game doesn't really require grinding. The challenge hexes that pop up can even be beaten by a lower-level party, just takes some thinking (and a lot of retries).

[Ruldra]

The grinding I was referring to was mainly about the Arena missions. Would've been much better if you could go from one mission straight to the next, rather than going out, receiving your prize, choosing the next mission and going in again. When you need to do that 500 times it feels like a massive grind.

[Elixir]

?

The Arena is completely optional. I didn't even bother with it until post-game.

[Zaarock]

I haven't played VP2, but yeah, that's the biggest problem with RoF. You can win nearly every battle with the same strategies, more or less. I wouldn't say it was hard either, but I still liked it a lot. At least it redeemed tri-Ace after their previous abominations (SO4 and IU).

Started playing this recently and am up to chapter 14 ,have been enjoying the game a lot. I agree with this so far though, the combat system has some faults (some things are too easy/broken). but I'm surprized by how much I like the story and dialogue, and the music and setting are great. I hope Tri-Ace makes a sequel of some sorts, there is a lot of potential in the combat system at least.. it's interesting already but you barely need to explore any of the details. Stuff like jumping and high level machineguns are overpowered with no penalties. The tri-attack system is cool but for most encounters it just saves time instead of it being a necessary tactic (mainly because you have so many "turns" later on). The start of the game was a bit more interesting when it wasn't just a matter of trying to not get one-hit killed, but instead you had to think about every move because you had fewer bezels/hero actions.

[Necronopticous]

I just started the Dark Spire earlier today and I am loving it. Feeling right at home with the retro mode.

[cj iwakura]

I enjoyed Resonance of Fate. Very unique, and well polished.

The storytelling is very minimalist, but there is a lot going on if you look into it further(like going deep into Basel and talking to assorted townspeople). If you rush from chapter to chapter, you miss quite a bit.


As for Dark Spire, retro mode is neat, but the game has great artwork in traditional mode(and amazing music), so I hardly used it.

www.youtube.com/watch?v=MVSVT-VcHMc

[Necronopticous]

As for Dark Spire, retro mode is neat, but the game has great artwork in traditional mode(and amazing music), so I hardly used it.

I wasn't really digging the art style, myself. I like the look of the sprites in retro mode, and there is less distraction while exploring using the wireframe mode.

[Zaarock]

The storytelling is very minimalist, but there is a lot going on if you look into it further(like going deep into Basel and talking to assorted townspeople). If you rush from chapter to chapter, you miss quite a bit.

Yeah, the story is pretty interesting and some of the dialogue/humor is great (really good english voices as well). I just beat the game.. the story in the ending sequences felt pretty sloppy compared to most of the other character development scenes and stuff, too bad. Hope they make some kind of sequel with similar mechanics.