Difficult RPGs

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Moniker
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Difficult RPGs

Post by Moniker »

A common complaint re: today's RPGs is that they're too easy. I figured it'd be a good idea to compile a list of the more challenging ones. Coz I love myself a good hard RPG. :| Since a lot of older games are quite difficult and well-known, probably best keep to more recent releases (32bit & beyond).

So throw your recommendations down and I'll put 'em on the list.
  • 7th Saga (SNES/SFC)
    Berwick Saga (PS2 - JP only)
    Crimson Tears (PS2)
    Dark Souls (X360/PS3)
    Dark Spire (NDS)
    Demon's Souls (PS3)
    Dept. Heaven Series
    --Riviera (GBA/PSP)
    --Yggdra Union (GBA/NDS/PSP)
    --Knights in the Nightmare (NDS/PSP)
    --Gugnir (PSP)
    Diablo - No Importing (PC/PSX)
    Diablo 2 Hardcore (PC)
    Ehrgeiz - Dungeon Crawl Mode (PSX)
    Etrian Odyssey 1-3 (NDS)
    Fire Emblem Series (FC/SFC/GBA/GCN/NDS/Wii)
    --Fire Emblem 4: Seisen no Keifu (SFC)
    --Fire Emblem - Hector Mode (GBA)
    --Fire Emblem: Shadow Dragon - H5 Campaign (NDS)
    Final Fantasy IX - Level 1 Ozma Challenge (PSX)
    Final Fantasy Tactics (PSX/PSP)
    Infinity Engine games (PC/Mac)
    --Baldur's Gate, Planescape: Torment, etc.
    Phantasy Star (Every platform ever)
    Resonance of Fate (X360/PS3)
    Rondo of Swords (NDS)
    Shadow Hearts (PS2)
    SMT Series
    --Nocturne - Hard Mode (PS2)
    --Persona 4 - Hard Mode (PS2)
    --Strange Journey (NDS)
    Wild Arms XF (PSP)
    Wizardy Series (Every platform ever)
Last edited by Moniker on Sun Jan 01, 2012 4:02 am, edited 13 times in total.
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DragonInstall
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Re: Difficult RPGs

Post by DragonInstall »

Persona 4 on hard mode is quite the challenge.
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Re: Difficult RPGs

Post by Estebang »

Any of Sting's Dept. Heaven games (Riviera etc.).

SMT 3: Nocturne also has a ridiculous hard mode.
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Re: Difficult RPGs

Post by Necronopticous »

I've been a fan of the Final Fantasy series since I was a kid. In college I got really into doing challenges and uncovered some really fun ones. The Level One Ozma challenge in Final Fantasy IX is one of the finest RPG experiences out there, in my opinion.
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Blackbird
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Re: Difficult RPGs

Post by Blackbird »

Are we including turn based strategy RPGs?
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Drum
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Re: Difficult RPGs

Post by Drum »

Blackbird wrote:Are we including turn based strategy RPGs?
Looks like, FFT made the list. I'll let you suggest the Fire Emblem series.

Ys games can get pretty tough. Well, the ones I played (Oath in Felghana, Book I & II).

We counting roguelikes? Because that makes the list pretty long.
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Moniker
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Re: Difficult RPGs

Post by Moniker »

Drum wrote:
Blackbird wrote:Are we including turn based strategy RPGs?
Looks like, FFT made the list. I'll let you suggest the Fire Emblem series.

Ys games can get pretty tough. Well, the ones I played (Oath in Felghana, Book I & II).

We counting roguelikes? Because that makes the list pretty long.
Yeah I think we can assume that basically any roguelike would make the list. Fodder for another thread, I think. SRPGs are more than welcome.

Any recs for particular Fire Emblem games? I've only finished one (sacred stones), and that was awhile ago, and I can't really recall if it was particularly difficult.
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Re: Difficult RPGs

Post by alastair jack »

Do any of these games not have any grinding in them?
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Re: Difficult RPGs

Post by Elixir »

Demon's Souls isn't on PC, nor is Dark Souls. Diablo 2 isn't on PS1.

I vote for Shiren (SNES) and its 100 floor dungeon. No equipment to begin with, randomized dungeons, one life, make do with what you find.
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Moniker
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Re: Difficult RPGs

Post by Moniker »

alastair jack wrote:Do any of these games not have any grinding in them?
IIRC, Fire emblem doesn't. There are only story stages and no random stuff in between.
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Blackbird
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Re: Difficult RPGs

Post by Blackbird »

Moniker wrote:Any recs for particular Fire Emblem games? I've only finished one (sacred stones), and that was awhile ago, and I can't really recall if it was particularly difficult.
Sacred Stones is widely considered to be the easiest Fire Emblem because it is the only one (to my knowledge) that allows the player to "farm" or "grind" levels outside the scope of the campaign. You can go to the tower and complete maps over and over to level up the characters as much as you like, which in turn makes the campaign easier.

Other Fire Emblem games proceed through the campaign in a linear manner. Once a map is cleared, you cannot revisit it, so EXP is for the most part a finite resource*.

In my opinion, Path of Radiance and Fire Emblem (the first one released for the GBA in the US) are the best entries in the series. They're both great games and I would recommend people that want to get into the series to start with them. If you want to know which is hardest though, it's a subject of a lot of debate. Fire Emblem/FE7's "Hector Hard Mode" is considered to be very difficult, as is Shadow Dragon's "H5" campaign mode. I have heard that Fire Emblem 5 is very difficult as well, but I cannot confirm this as I haven't played it personally.

Radiant Dawn is kind of hilarious in that the hardest part of the game is at the very beginning, and then it becomes laughably easy later on.

Intelligent Systems' other series, Advance Wars, is harder in my opinion. The Advance Campaign from AW1 is -extremely- challenging, to the extent that no one has ever gotten a perfect score (it may even be impossible). I wouldn't call Advance Wars an RPG though, you don't have levels or stats in a traditional sense.

The Sting games have already been mentioned, and they are quite challenging. I like to try beating Yggdra Union maps without ever losing Morale (lose no battles). It's very challenging to play this way.

Heroes of Might and Magic can be extremely challenging in some circumstances, particularly if you play on more difficult maps and higher difficulty settings. Difficulty varies a lot in this game, it's pretty flexible in that regard.

*Okay, so you can find an Armor Knight on a Gate somewhere to ping for one damage over and over, but that's a really cheesy way to play, lol.
Last edited by Blackbird on Fri Dec 23, 2011 2:13 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Blackbird
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Re: Difficult RPGs

Post by Blackbird »

alastair jack wrote:Do any of these games not have any grinding in them?
Fire Emblem does not have grinding in the traditional sense. You can try to hit an enemy for little damage multiple times to increase the amount of exp it grants before it dies, but even then it will die eventually. You don't have an opportunity to go "farm" a limitless number of generic enemies for money/exp, though (Sacred Stones being the sole exception to this). There are a fixed number of enemies and you can only kill each enemy once.
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Re: Difficult RPGs

Post by BulletMagnet »

I found the first Shadow Hearts to be rather challenging, though I consider the latter two better games overall.
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Re: Difficult RPGs

Post by Subterranean Sun »

Wizardries. All of them. Except maybe 6.

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Re: Difficult RPGs

Post by Gus »

RPGs aren't difficult in the same sense shmups are. Just time consuming.
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Re: Difficult RPGs

Post by Elixir »

Gus wrote:RPGs aren't difficult in the same sense shmups are. Just time consuming.
Roguelikes are. Shmups are actually more time consuming than RPGs.
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Re: Difficult RPGs

Post by Obiwanshinobi »

If you call the Ys series "RPGs", then I can as well namedrop DreamFactory dungeon crawlers: Crimson Tears and Ehrgeiz. Bonus dungeon in Crimson Tears is fairly challenging regardless of your stats as you enter it without any equipment every time. In Ehrgeiz you pay for saving the game with the dough earned in dungeons, and the prices are quite steep.
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Re: Difficult RPGs

Post by linko9 »

Moniker wrote: Any recs for particular Fire Emblem games?
FIRE EMBLEM 4. This is by far the best FE game, and one of the best games ever made. There's a good fan translation. Seriously, it's in my top 3 games ever.
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Re: Difficult RPGs

Post by Ruldra »

The original Phantasy Star is filled with mazes and there are no maps to help you out. If you don't have a good sense of direction you won't get anywhere in the game.
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Re: Difficult RPGs

Post by Eaglet »

The regular Shin Megami Tenseis.
III (Nocturne) in particular.

Oh yeah, for WRPG's; the Baldur's Gate games can be challenging.
Not that hard though, just require some tactical thinking. Unlike most FF-grindfests.
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Re: Difficult RPGs

Post by Estebang »

Obiwanshinobi wrote:If you call the Ys series "RPGs", then I can as well namedrop DreamFactory dungeon crawlers: Crimson Tears and Ehrgeiz.
Ehrgeiz is a 3D fighting game, and was originally in arcades. You don't see me calling Soul Calibur an RPG with its quest modes.
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Re: Difficult RPGs

Post by MR_Soren »

alastair jack wrote:Do any of these games not have any grinding in them?
Nocturne doesn't require grinding if you play smart, but it's certainly an option. Also, it might depend on what you consider grinding.

Likewise for Demon's Souls. Leveling up is far less important than play technique.
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Re: Difficult RPGs

Post by spikehead »

Wizardry IV -The return of Werdna

Leaving the first room is a challenge in it´s own. The fights are almost impossible without the right spell/ item conbination and trying to map the level that rotates you whenever you step forward drives you insane...
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Re: Difficult RPGs

Post by Obiwanshinobi »

Estebang wrote:Ehrgeiz is a 3D fighting game, and was originally in arcades. You don't see me calling Soul Calibur an RPG with its quest modes.
The PSX version sports a dungeon crawling mode not quite unlike Diablo. Obviously, I meant that part of the game rather than the arena 1vs1 fighting mode.
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Re: Difficult RPGs

Post by dunpeal2064 »

This list will get really long if you also include "challenges" in rpgs, since those are just ways to make the easier ones last a bit longer for those of us addicted to them.

Sure, a no-junction ff8 clear is tough, but that doesn't mean ff8 is.

That ozma challenge is good fun though. A good way to make any rpg fairl challenging is to lvl as little as possible.
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Re: Difficult RPGs

Post by Deca »

I'm not sure I'd consider Knights in the Nightmare particularly challenging, but it definitely is an awesome game.
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Re: Difficult RPGs

Post by Moniker »

dunpeal2064 wrote:This list will get really long if you also include "challenges" in rpgs, since those are just ways to make the easier ones last a bit longer for those of us addicted to them.

Sure, a no-junction ff8 clear is tough, but that doesn't mean ff8 is.

That ozma challenge is good fun though. A good way to make any rpg fairl challenging is to lvl as little as possible.
Yeah, I agree we oughta steer clear of voluntary challenges unless they're a compelling experience all on their own, which I gather Ozma is. I imagine challenge modes (eg, hard modes) included in the game should be beyond controversy.

Not totally sure Baldur's Gate belongs, since it's not that difficult, but it does have multiple difficulty settings, although I don't really like the way it handles difficulty increase. But I don't have enough experience there to make the call, so I'll just throw the Infinity Engine games up. I really don't like the way ES games' use of the difficulty slider, so I'll steer clear there.
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Re: Difficult RPGs

Post by professor ganson »

Blackbird wrote: Intelligent Systems' other series, Advance Wars, is harder in my opinion.
Could be, but the comparison will only make sense if you restrict yourself to Fire Emblem's unlockable hard modes that have a scoring system, no online stores, etc. Two Fire Emblem games are on this list of most challenging turn-based strategy games; so are two Advance Wars games:
http://www.tbstactics.com/2010/05/most- ... t-and.html
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Re: Difficult RPGs

Post by Mischief Maker »

No mention of "The Dark Spire?" It's probably the hardest RPG on the DS.
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Re: Difficult RPGs

Post by Necronopticous »

Moniker wrote:Yeah, I agree we oughta steer clear of voluntary challenges unless they're a compelling experience all on their own, which I gather Ozma is.
Yeah. I've played through dozens of RPG challenges. This one in particular is like a whole new game. As you play you almost get the sense that the developers actually designed the game to allow the possibility of the challenge. There are many sections where it is absolutely impossible to get around taking some experience points and having some characters level up, except for one extremely convenient, probably otherwise overlooked, item or mechanism. I highly recommend it to anyone who is a fan of the game itself.
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