XRGB-mini Framemeister

[Zapf]

[18:36] <Megalixir> http://www.micomsoft.co.jp/xrgb-mini.htm
[18:36] <Megalixir> holy shit why is it so expensive

I didnt know shmups forum had an IRC channel

[fagin]

Wait, how is that less than the xrgb3? thats not even less than the fucking MSRP for the xrgb3

roflol

It's the same price!

Not that it makes any difference tbh.... we're all still going to buy it arn't we!

Will be interesting for sure when Fudoh get's his grubby mitts on it for review!

[BuckoA51]

Hmm, I wonder if Micomsoft still intend to produce an XRGB4? I mean, these products are fairly niche in the grand scale of consumer electronics. At that price, it's not like the mini appeals to the more mainstream retrogaming crowd.

[Fudoh]

Will be interesting for sure when Fudoh get's his grubby mitts on it for review!

inquiring already. But I could imagine that the retail department at Dempa is not really talking to the engineers, which just only recently said that they would need a little more time to finish the bugs. I'll report back!

[Fudoh]

PS: to quote myself from a recent post:

I would assume 32.800 Yen or something like this

I would say that this was a perfect guess - even if it's only Micomsoft's launch offer and not the MSRP.

[Plasia]

There's no component or d-terminal but there is VGA in, is that correct?

[Fudoh]

No, there's a D-Terminal input on the back, but no VGA

[StarCreator]

Even if they listed it for 1/3 of what they're asking for now, I'd still consider it too expensive.

[RGB32E]

http://www.micomsoft.co.jp/xrgb-mini_spec.htm

The didn't include the pinout of the 8 pin mini din RGB input connector, just the JP21 breakout cable... D:

Think Micomsoft will ship pre-orders to the US?

[Fudoh]

no, they won't ship internationally.

The asterisk at the output resolutions is weird. It states that if 1200p resolutions are choosen (1600x1200 or 1920x1200), the active image part will only be 1080p lines. While this is ok for 16:9 content, that's bogus for 4:3 material.

[Fudoh]

(in answer to RGB32's deleted question: I hope to get a review unit through Solaris, but I'll also have a second pre-order in case anything goes wrong. I have little time before x'mas, but I hope to have this here so put a full review online before the end of the year (IF the unit really gets released in two weeks from now)).

Just downloaded the manual: it confirms that the active gaming area on a 20"/21" LCD with UXGA resolution is only 1440x1080. This seems weird since I checked the Kyoto2's spec sheet and it seems to handle 1200p resolutions just fine. That's actually really bad news for users of good classic 4:3 LCDs or users of modern 24" LCDs. Feeding 1024x768 is an alternative, but that's quite a hit in image quality and sharpness.

I'm happy to see the mini offers a bunch of different deinterlacing modes. This is the same processor (88DE2750 aka Marvell QDEO Kyoto 2) as used in some higher end BD players (like the Oppo 93 or the Philips 9600).

EDIT: @RGB32E: did you just delete your last posting ?

[Konsolkongen]

I'm a bit disappointed that the unit doesn't take in VGA after all. XRGB-3 > Mini > TV is no longer an option then.

On the other hand, if they manage to get scanlines right on the Mini it won't matter, and could end up replacing my XRGB-3 altogether.

It's funny how this started out to be nothing but a simple upscaler and deinterlacer, but from the looks (and price) of it, it now sounds more like a full fletched XRGB-3 replacement

And no PAL50 support I take it? Even though I do everything I possibly can to avoid 50Hz this still sucks a bit

[Elixir]

Even if they listed it for 1/3 of what they're asking for now, I'd still consider it too expensive.

The pricing is hilarious, this is rancor tier pricing. I would have expected ~19,900-ish yen, but not this. This is just hilarious.

It's actually pretty funny how they won't ship internationally considering there's more game purists outside than in.

[Fudoh]

And no PAL50 support I take it? Even though I do everything I possibly can to avoid 50Hz this still sucks a bit

the Marvell should handle PAL pretty much automatically, so I'm positive about the input side. BUT the manual states that everything not-60Hz gets framerate-converter (for example 1080p24 gets 1080p60) and it also states non-standard rates for 240p sources get converted. This would mean that a system like the MVS gets framerate converted all the way (which isn't neccessarily a good thing, but obviously neccessary for HDMI). This might also mean that 50Hz sources are accepted but converted to 60Hz output.

Missing VGA is a pitty, but it's something I could live with, since VGA to Component conversion is pretty much available (and affordable). Also you could chain your Vigatec in front of the Mini, since the FX2 offers component output right away.

[RGB32E]

http://micomsoft.co.jp/XRGB-mini.pdf

MEISTER 画面に走査線の特殊効果を表示可能で、ゲームに適した低遅延な2D I/P処理
。 In the scanning lines can be displayed on screen special effects, processing 2D I ​​/ P and low latency for gaming

Meister mode.... lol...

From the manual:
http://micomsoft.co.jp/XRGB-mini_m.pdf

[MEISTER]
Low-latency video processing is performed by converting 2D I / P as well as GAME1.
However, MEISTER, a pseudo video scan lines of a specific resolution
The display.
For video output, you can insert a horizontal black, reproduces the low quality
Provides the texture of old games.
※ This function is available only if the lower vertical resolution of the input image vertical resolution of the output image
You.
When input or output resolution to 1080i ※ You can not use this feature.
Input in the resolution of 480i ※, 640 × 480 dots when the output resolution is 480p or this function
Not available.
Unit and the display device ※, by adjusting the ratio of the screen processing, and scaling, moire in the picture
Occur or may impair the texture. Also, the unit's output resolution
Changes the texture of the screen.

[Konsolkongen]

And no PAL50 support I take it? Even though I do everything I possibly can to avoid 50Hz this still sucks a bit

the Marvell should handle PAL pretty much automatically, so I'm positive about the input side. BUT the manual states that everything not-60Hz gets framerate-converter (for example 1080p24 gets 1080p60) and it also states non-standard rates for 240p sources get converted. This would mean that a system like the MVS gets framerate converted all the way (which isn't neccessarily a good thing, but obviously neccessary for HDMI). This might also mean that 50Hz sources are accepted but converted to 60Hz output.

Okay conversion should be fine. I was just worried about EU PS2 games where you manually have to set 50 or 60Hz at startup. Conversion will mean stuttering of course, it's a given for the MVS's strange 59.1 refresh but it shouldn't be too bad. The 50 to 60Hz conversion on the other hand will probably be unplayable but if we can use it at start up to manually set the games to 60Hz, this will do fine.

Missing VGA is a pitty, but it's something I could live with, since VGA to Component conversion is pretty much available (and affordable). Also you could chain your Vigatec in front of the Mini, since the FX2 offers component output right away.

Videon Yes I could do that, but that's 2 frames from the Videon + whatever the Mini has + the TV's 1 frame. It all counts
And my cheapo RGBs to YPbPr transcoder does add some colorbleed to reds and blue.

From the manual:
http://micomsoft.co.jp/XRGB-mini_m.pdf

[MEISTER]
When input or output resolution to 1080i ※ You can not use this feature.
Input in the resolution of 480i ※, 640 × 480 dots when the output resolution is 480p or this function
Not available.
...

Since it only seems to work on 240p resolutions this scanline modes sounds like it does more than just apply a filter on the output image. Fudoh can probably correct me if I'm mistaken, but it sounds very much like the XRGB-3 in B1 mode.

[Fudoh]

but it sounds very much like the XRGB-3 in B1 mode.

it does indeed.

[RGB32E]

but it sounds very much like the XRGB-3 in B1 mode.

it does indeed.

It sounds like you can output 1080p with the MEISTER picture mode, and are not limited to analog 480p output like the XRGB-3! (480p with scanlines scaled by the FM to 1080p)

[Fudoh]

Yes, you can definitely output all progressive resolutions with scanlines. Where it sounds like the XRGB-3's B1 mode is the limitation to 240p on the input side...

[Konsolkongen]

But now that it sounds so much like the XRGB-3's B1 mode, it makes me worry about the overall compatibility

[Fudoh]

I don't think that's something to worry about. They obviously avoid using overlays, so the scanlines are added in the first processing step for 240p material, when the picture's doubled to 480p. I still think that the Marvell can NOT handle 240p, so they probably use some kind of automatic recognition before the Marvell. 480i and higher are routed into the Qdeo right away, but 240p is doubled first and that's where you can add the scanlines and that's why the process is limited to 240p signals only.

[Konsolkongen]

Well at least this one has HDMI output. So if you can test it with MVS and output at 1080p60 it should work on all TV's that accepts that resolution, right?

[RGB32E]

I still think that the Marvell can NOT handle 240p, so they probably use some kind of automatic recognition before the Marvell. 480i and higher are routed into the Qdeo right away, but 240p is doubled first and that's where you can add the scanlines and that's why the process is limited to 240p signals only.

Do you mean to imply that 240p RGB would be sampled at 30Hz instead of 60Hz? I would think 480i and 480p handling should be great, right... no ringing or artifacts from LPF?

[Fudoh]

no, I didn't mean that. I think that they included a little FPGA (which they need anyway to do things like "scanlining") which (literally) doubles 240p60 to 480p60 before going into the Marvell for scaling. And yes, 480i and 480p handling should be quite nice.

[SGGG2]

It's actually pretty funny how they won't ship internationally considering there's more game purists outside than in.

There's some odd restriction where they can't ship electronics internationally -- as I found out when I tried to order an XRGB-3 off Amazon Japan. I'm not sure if proxy services are some sort of grey area or what.

[Plasia]

Really looking forward to your review Fudoh!

Especially interested in input lag.

[RCM]

This is great news. Has anyone found a way for US residents to order? I've been waiting too long...

[Fudoh]

This is great news. Has anyone found a way for US residents to order? I've been waiting too long...

once they're available to wholesalers, they'll be available all over the place. Solaris JP will stock them for international shipping as soon they can get their hands on them.

[Zapf]

This is great news. Has anyone found a way for US residents to order? I've been waiting too long...

once they're available to wholesalers, they'll be available all over the place. Solaris JP will stock them for international shipping as soon they can get their hands on them.

Is there any chance you'll get your review copy before wholesalers?

[Kiel]

Hopefully NCSX gets them so we can get them for a somewhat reasonable price