Too close for comfort? the revival?

kernow · Post by **kernow** » Mon Oct 24, 2011 5:10 pm

brentsg wrote:
kernow wrote:Err yes I've been borrowing it for a couple of months, beat your score also. But admittedly that was after the 3rd credit
And you know my score how? I don't even know my score.

It was a fair question, as I thought you'd given it a quick go in MAME.

oh I know your score buddy *wink*

Sumez · Post by **Sumez** » Mon Oct 24, 2011 5:13 pm

ptoing wrote:Because "better" is totally quantifiable. All a matter of preference. Too much stupid discussion in this forum about what is better and what is not, when it all comes down to what someone likes in the end.

Yes, you can say that a game is made well and has overall solid mechanics, but whether it is seen as good or not comes down to if whoever plays it likes it.

I totally respect that some people prefer Yagawa games to the more approachable IKD style Cave shooters, but why would anyone prefer invisible ninja bullets!?

ptoing · Post by **ptoing** » Mon Oct 24, 2011 5:32 pm

Don't ask me, haha. The bullets in Garegga and Ibara are not the most visible ones indeed. You get used to it but with all the shrapnel and explosions and junk on screen it is easy to fly into something, die and go, "wtf did just kill me?"

I like my bullets visible.

I been playing Batsugun Special Version recently, and in that game the enemy bullets sometimes get hard to see what with all the super bright player shots (esp type-a at level 3) Seizuretastic D:

Deca · Post by **Deca** » Mon Oct 24, 2011 5:34 pm

Sumez wrote:I totally respect that some people prefer Yagawa games to the more approachable IKD style Cave shooters, but why would anyone prefer invisible ninja bullets!?

I honestly cannot remember the last time I got hit by something I couldn't see in Garegga or Batrider. It's definitely an issue initially but if you just keep playing you really do get a lot better at seeing stuff in those games. Maybe you kind of learn to tune out the debris or whatever, I don't really notice it unless I'm trying to, and then I'm generally surprised at how much there actually is

ebarrett · Post by **ebarrett** » Mon Oct 24, 2011 5:53 pm

There's barely any bullets in Garegga, that's why people buy into the "invisible bullets" talk - they keep thinking there must be more bullets around, "this is supposed to be a hard game, right?" Now how do they keep getting hit by these nonexistant bullets is another matter, and beyond my understanding.

Anyway, just dropping by to say that now that Pink Sweets is emulated y'all should go play it because it's fuckin' awesome, I wish I could use MAME to make some savestates and spam SE7 practice but I doubt this partially fossilized computer would ever run it.

charlie chong · Post by **charlie chong** » Mon Oct 24, 2011 5:54 pm

you get extra lives in pink sweets for shooting a certain amount of the destructible bullets whoever asked.there is a hidden life as well in one of the tanks on the 3rd level(if i remember correctly)

shmuppyLove · Post by **shmuppyLove** » Mon Oct 24, 2011 5:54 pm

xgunnBlaze · Post by **xgunnBlaze** » Mon Oct 24, 2011 6:47 pm

ptoing wrote:Don't ask me, haha. The bullets in Garegga and Ibara are not the most visible ones indeed. You get used to it but with all the shrapnel and explosions and junk on screen it is easy to fly into something, die and go, "wtf did just kill me?"

I like my bullets visible.

Me too.
In Garegga, I think the main problem people have is trying to distinguish those missiles from the enemy debris.
About the whole Ibara vs Kuro deal:
In Ibara, sometimes I got hit before I realized that there was a stream of bullets coming at me from whatever direction, especially when there were a lot of enemies blowing up on the screen. Kuro is definitely easier, and it makes me feel like I am good at a Raizing-style game

.
IMO both are fun, one is just much harder.

gct · Post by **gct** » Mon Oct 24, 2011 7:36 pm

So what are the chances of someone much smarter than I reverse-engineering the process that Cave uses to flash SH3 boards? It's some encrypted JTAG, right?

I recall there are slightly different hardware among boards so certain games are not compatible with some boards?

charlie chong · Post by **charlie chong** » Mon Oct 24, 2011 8:12 pm

i can't believe we've got all these new games in mame and nobody has mentioned that pcb prices are going to plummet.

trolls be slippin

jus sayin

Nasirosuchus · Post by **Nasirosuchus** » Mon Oct 24, 2011 8:16 pm

charlie chong wrote:i can't believe we've got all these new games in mame and nobody has mentioned that pcb prices are going to plummet.

trolls be slippin

jus sayin

Why would they plummet?

charlie chong · Post by **charlie chong** » Mon Oct 24, 2011 8:22 pm

they wouldn't it's just in certain trolls imaginations that when games come out on mame or 360 that noone wants to play pcbs on cabs or superguns anymore.it's just a running theme that cave centric threads bring.

mjclark · Post by **mjclark** » Mon Oct 24, 2011 8:44 pm

charlie chong wrote:you get extra lives in pink sweets for shooting a certain amount of the destructible bullets whoever asked.there is a hidden life as well in one of the tanks on the 3rd level(if i remember correctly)

I just looked at the ST in the Strategy Section for Pink Sweets and there's a suggestion there that it's fucked cos you can't manage rank properly and you should never use the Rose Cracker or collect any options! Can this be true? I'm captivated by it's Recca flavour but the ST makes it sound broken.
Please help!!!!!

Estebang · Post by **Estebang** » Mon Oct 24, 2011 8:46 pm

Stepping into this thread for the first time...

I've given all the games a test run. All of them run and finally have sound, but there's horrific stuttering that makes them unplayable. Is this due to my underpowered PC (2.3 GHz dual-core laptop), or is the performance simply not at an optimal level yet? Some people have talked about compiling MAME, what does that refer to? Would it improve performance?

I know I'm sounding like a noob, but I'm not going to sift through the last 20 pages.

mjclark, I believe it's okay to use the Rose Cracker in the last stage. But yeah, it raises the rank a hell of a lot, though regular suiciding will keep it down.

shmuppyLove · Post by **shmuppyLove** » Mon Oct 24, 2011 8:51 pm

charlie chong wrote:i can't believe we've got all these new games in mame and nobody has mentioned that pcb prices are going to plummet.

trolls be slippin

jus sayin

I had thought about this before, but I also wondered if it might actually make prices go up, at least in the short term.

As it's been discussed a lot already, the games aren't exactly perfect yet. I'm sure it's taken a ton of work to get them to the point they're at now, but I'm also sure it will take a lot more work to get them that last 10-20%.

This gets those games a lot more exposure, and I'm sure there will be more than a few people who will get a taste of these in MAME, and will want to have the full meal. Personally, I would never spend $300-700 on a game I had never tried before, and if it weren't for MAME I would never have had that chance.

I'm waiting though for that inevitable FS post:
"Selling because I can just play it in MAME now"

shmuppyLove · Post by **shmuppyLove** » Mon Oct 24, 2011 8:52 pm

mjclark wrote:
charlie chong wrote:you get extra lives in pink sweets for shooting a certain amount of the destructible bullets whoever asked.there is a hidden life as well in one of the tanks on the 3rd level(if i remember correctly)
I just looked at the ST in the Strategy Section for Pink Sweets and there's a suggestion there that it's fucked cos you can't manage rank properly and you should never use the Rose Cracker or collect any options! Can this be true? I'm captivated by it's Recca flavour but the ST makes it sound broken.
Please help!!!!!

I haven't checked it in a while, but I remember reading that tapping the shot button also increases rank lololol

ptoing · Post by **ptoing** » Mon Oct 24, 2011 8:57 pm

shmuppyLove wrote:
mjclark wrote:
charlie chong wrote:you get extra lives in pink sweets for shooting a certain amount of the destructible bullets whoever asked.there is a hidden life as well in one of the tanks on the 3rd level(if i remember correctly)
I just looked at the ST in the Strategy Section for Pink Sweets and there's a suggestion there that it's fucked cos you can't manage rank properly and you should never use the Rose Cracker or collect any options! Can this be true? I'm captivated by it's Recca flavour but the ST makes it sound broken.
Please help!!!!!
I haven't checked it in a while, but I remember reading that tapping the shot button also increases rank lololol

I think Garegga does that as well. Also if you tap fast you can change the autofire rate. But only up afaik. And PS could really need a 3rd button for speed change.

Different thing: does anyone know how to get into the setup menu for Guwange Blue? Or does it not have one? I would like to set C to full auto.

mjclark · Post by **mjclark** » Mon Oct 24, 2011 9:00 pm

Estebang wrote: mjclark, I believe it's okay to use the Rose Cracker in the last stage. But yeah, it raises the rank a hell of a lot, though regular suiciding will keep it down.

The ST appears to say that in PS there is no way of reducing rank. Even suiciding does not reduce rank but simply slows its rate of increase and that rank continues to rise ineluctibly throughout the game with every button press and item collected, which sounds fucking terrible...

shmuppyLove · Post by **shmuppyLove** » Mon Oct 24, 2011 9:01 pm

ptoing wrote:Different thing: does anyone know how to get into the setup menu for Guwange Blue? Or does it not have one? I would like to set C to full auto.

Trying hitting "0" instead of F2, works for the other newer games.

kernow · Post by **kernow** » Mon Oct 24, 2011 9:01 pm

If its an older cave board *like guwange* you probably just need to hold the test button for 2-3 seconds.

ptoing · Post by **ptoing** » Mon Oct 24, 2011 9:02 pm

Figured it out. F2 does not work. 9 does.

Estebang · Post by **Estebang** » Mon Oct 24, 2011 9:03 pm

How do any of you have the Guwange Blue rom? I literally cannot find it anywhere.

(this is not a request for roms)

Nasirosuchus · Post by **Nasirosuchus** » Mon Oct 24, 2011 9:19 pm

Estebang wrote:Stepping into this thread for the first time...

I've given all the games a test run. All of them run and finally have sound, but there's horrific stuttering that makes them unplayable. Is this due to my underpowered PC (2.3 GHz dual-core laptop), or is the performance simply not at an optimal level yet? Some people have talked about compiling MAME, what does that refer to? Would it improve performance?

I know I'm sounding like a noob, but I'm not going to sift through the last 20 pages.

mjclark, I believe it's okay to use the Rose Cracker in the last stage. But yeah, it raises the rank a hell of a lot, though regular suiciding will keep it down.

The playability of the game, speed etc, is probably as optimized as its going to get. Perhaps in the next release, the sound can be optimized so that the skipping and stuttering stops.

Chaos Phoenixma · Post by **Chaos Phoenixma** » Mon Oct 24, 2011 9:20 pm

Unlike Yagawa's other games, it's possible to clear Pink Sweets and Muchi Muchi Pork with max rank, even without infinite lives for Pink Sweets. Not sure how it would work with Extended anyway. I know it was said that Extended was impossible without infinite lives, but why exactly would it be? Max rank is pretty much unavoidable in Muchi Muchi Pork though.

If they can get the slowdowns working and a way to configure the necessary autofires for each button stuff, I will definitely go for a Pink Sweets 1cc. Screw doing it on the port without infinite lives. And to get the infinite lives, you're not allowed to suicide as any death before the trick is activated nullifies it. Even with Extended's higher rank than Normal course, infinite lives would feel doable, if I got the necessary autofire and learned to do it. The first 3 stages really aren't hard to survive. It's the milking destructibles on bosses and midbosses that I'd be worried about missing to.

Sapz · Post by **Sapz** » Mon Oct 24, 2011 9:28 pm

mjclark wrote:
Estebang wrote: mjclark, I believe it's okay to use the Rose Cracker in the last stage. But yeah, it raises the rank a hell of a lot, though regular suiciding will keep it down.
The ST appears to say that in PS there is no way of reducing rank. Even suiciding does not reduce rank but simply slows its rate of increase and that rank continues to rise ineluctibly throughout the game with every button press and item collected, which sounds fucking terrible...

Assuming you're playing primarily for survival here, don't go nuts with the Rose Cracker until stage 4 or so onwards, although using it a little bit is fine. You're probably going to max out the rank on stage 5 (if not, stage 6 for sure) no matter what you do, so don't worry about it too much - you should really be going nuts with the cracker later on in the game. Really though, I'd say you could get away with crackering quite a bit in the early game, but it'll be noticably trickier for a few stages. Nothing game-breaking, though.

I'm not really an expert with this, but that's how it seemed in my experience.

I know the highest scoring videos try to jack up the rank as fast as possible right from the start, so there's that.

mjclark · Post by **mjclark** » Mon Oct 24, 2011 10:02 pm

Chaos Phoenixma wrote:Unlike Yagawa's other games, it's possible to clear Pink Sweets and Muchi Muchi Pork with max rank, even without infinite lives for Pink Sweets. Not sure how it would work with Extended anyway. I know it was said that Extended was impossible without infinite lives, but why exactly would it be? Max rank is pretty much unavoidable in Muchi Muchi Pork though.

Thanks- this makes it sound more playable again

I should've known Yagawa wouldn't mess up on rank control eh?

Shin · Post by **Shin** » Mon Oct 24, 2011 10:06 pm

shmuppyLove wrote:
charlie chong wrote:i can't believe we've got all these new games in mame and nobody has mentioned that pcb prices are going to plummet.

trolls be slippin

jus sayin
I had thought about this before, but I also wondered if it might actually make prices go up, at least in the short term.

As it's been discussed a lot already, the games aren't exactly perfect yet. I'm sure it's taken a ton of work to get them to the point they're at now, but I'm also sure it will take a lot more work to get them that last 10-20%.

This gets those games a lot more exposure, and I'm sure there will be more than a few people who will get a taste of these in MAME, and will want to have the full meal. Personally, I would never spend $300-700 on a game I had never tried before, and if it weren't for MAME I would never have had that chance.

I'm waiting though for that inevitable FS post:
"Selling because I can just play it in MAME now"

I think there's a stretch from "playing game I like for free" to "buying 400-1000$+ pcbs", most ppl would go for the "let's buy 360 ports" intermediate. (I know mushi1 ans ibara's aren't on 360 and that mmp/ps aren't that great of ports, but still)

Post by **Icarus** » Mon Oct 24, 2011 10:10 pm

Pink Sweets v1.00 For Dummies
• Base rank increase variable is multiplied (!) by the number of lives in reserve - the more lives you have, the faster it goes up.
• Base rank increase variable is also increased by the number of Rose Hips you have equipped.
• Using the Rose Cracker bumps total rank up by a small one-time amount.
• Pressing the B button (to switch Rose Hip formations) bumps the rank up by a pretty noticeable one-time amount. (!!) Key technique for expert max-rank play is to use rapid-fire on B to drive rank to max by the second boss. (!!!)
• Suiciding does decrease rank, but not by a lot. (?!)
• Attack power and firing shots does not seem to increase rank much.
> Low rank strategy: suicide until no lives remain, acquire Special Power Up, play whole game with 0 Extend stock, no Rose Hips and avoiding surplus items to keep base rank increase variable at lowest possible.
> Max rank strategy: pick up everything, use Rapid B (if available) to drive rank to max, generate and pick up max Extend stock as quickly as possible. Use Rose Cracker to milk specific attack patterns.
> Hybrid strategy: keep Extend stock at one as mistake buffer, avoid Rose Hips where possible (but acquire them for stage 4 for snake section onwards), milk some attack patterns for points.

Strategy demonstrations:
• Low rank play (11.93mil ALL, Kasumi-A, AZI)
pt1: http://www.nicovideo.jp/watch/sm6764131
pt2: http://www.nicovideo.jp/watch/sm6764312
pt3: http://www.nicovideo.jp/watch/sm6764493
pt4: http://www.nicovideo.jp/watch/sm6764710

• Max rank play (9.68mil, st5, Lace-A, YOS.K)
http://www.ustream.tv/recorded/13154547

• Hybrid play (6.1mil, st5 kuso, Lace-A, ICR)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SYDO5W5n8Hg

ptoing · Post by **ptoing** » Mon Oct 24, 2011 10:25 pm

Icarus wrote:Pink Sweets v1.00 For Dummies
• Base rank increase variable is multiplied (!) by the number of lives in reserve - the more lives you have, the faster it goes up.
• Base rank increase variable is also increased by the number of Rose Hips you have equipped.

So that would mean that if you have no lives left the base rank increase would be 0.
It might also be 0 in case you have no lives but rose hips, depending where in the equation the rosehips are added, before or after the multiplication with 0.

Is this correct?

Post by **Icarus** » Mon Oct 24, 2011 10:32 pm

ptoing wrote:So that would mean that if you have no lives left the base rank increase would be 0.
It might also be 0 in case you have no lives but rose hips, depending where in the equation the rosehips are added, before or after the multiplication with 0.

If you have no lives left, it's game over. ;p
Base rank-per-frame increase variable is something arbitrary that's not zero, obviously, since the key technique of low-rank play is making sure you have neither spare Extends and Rose Hips in stock, and rank would still need to increase outside of one-time additions somehow. Extends and Rose Hips appear to multiply this variable.
Maybe now that Ibara, Pink Sweets and MMP are in MAME, the rank system hackers can get to work digging in the code for hard numbers? ^_-

shmups.system11.org

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