XRGB-mini Framemeister

[Konsolkongen]

If the Mini does decent upscaling to 1080p, proper 240p handling as well as 480i, AND they manage to get scanlines looking just a good as the XRGB-3. Then I don't see why it wouldn't replace the XRGB-3 in my setup completely. In that case I think it's a fair price. But let's see how it performs once it gets released, there probably lots of things that can go wrong

Another thing. Could the 1.28ms be the delay from frame rate processing 59.19Hz to 59.94Hz?

[Fudoh]

Low delays (like 1.28ms here or 6ms on the Edge) usually originate from the line buffer used for scaling.

I'm looking forward to the mini. The chassis looks way more solid on the recent pics than expected. I'm honestly wondering why they're are even (possibly) considering a XRGB-4 if the mini performs well even on low-res RGB.

A zero (or 1.28ms) delay as shown on the recent pics does not allow any proper 480i deinterlacing, so it will be interesting to see how the Marvell processor adjusts to the various input formats.

Will be a great toy for the christmas

[BuckoA51]

I was thinking the same thing if they manage to hit all the nails on the head then this could realistically replace both the Edge and the XRGB3 in my setup. I hardly ever watch TV plus I upscale DVD's with the PC so the Edge would be kinda redundant, though it does do 720p to 1080p nicely too. More likely though, I'll end up with 3 processors (still less than Fudoh has in his setup though )

[Fudoh]

plus I upscale DVD's with the PC so the Edge would be kinda redundant

off topic, but once you get into using interframe creation on your TV set, using a PC for upscaling is hell (because it can't keep proper cadences). Also there's no proper video deinterlacing on a PC. There are ok'ish video deinterlacers, but no a single pixel-adaptive deinterlacing engine that can even get close to ABT's engine.

Nevertheless I would highly appreciate a new processor like the mini as the definitive videogame processor.

[Konsolkongen]

Fudoh will you be able to record high res video from the Mini's HDMI output?

[Fudoh]

sure.

[BuckoA51]

off topic, but once you get into using interframe creation on your TV set, using a PC for upscaling is hell (because it can't keep proper cadences). Also there's no proper video deinterlacing on a PC. There are ok'ish video deinterlacers, but no a single pixel-adaptive deinterlacing engine that can even get close to ABT's engine.

I disagree, I've always got excellent results from PC DVD playback using systems like Nvidia's Purevideo or Cyberlink's TrueTheater HD. I've Motionflow set to minimum and not had any issues (the Edge is in the chain too though probably not doing so much at that point). Surely the raw horsepower of a PC GPU is as good if not better than what's in a video-processor?

[Fudoh]

I've always got excellent results from PC DVD playback using systems like Nvidia's Purevideo or Cyberlink's TrueTheater HD.

both technologies are crappy in comparison to what a good TV implementation can do nowadays. The biggest problem and bottleneck is the HDMI connection to the TV which is limited to 1080p60 (which isn't a multiple of 24fps).

I've Motionflow set to minimum and not had any issues

a TV can't perform a stable IVTC on a 60Hz signal from a HTPC which is the key to enabling 48 or 72fps on the Sony sets.

Surely the raw horsepower of a PC GPU is as good if not better than what's in a video-processor?

not at all and that's basically the reason why there is no proper video deinterlacing on the PC.

Buy hey, don't take it a criticism. As long as you're happy with what you're doing, it's fine.

[BuckoA51]

I didn't think DVD's were 24fps anyway? Regardless, before I derail yet another thread I think I'll keep the DVDO anyway (At the very least I like it's overscan correction, saves messing with custom resolutions on the PC to get the entire desktop on). Googling around I hear arguments for and against PowerDVD vs standalone players, really seems to depend who you ask. Back when I originally switched from standalone player to Purevideo + FFDShow the differences were like night and day (in favor of PC) You've piqued my curiosity though, I might have to try PS3 non-upscaled to DVDO edge Vs PowerDVD.

[Fudoh]

I didn't think DVD's were 24fps anyway?

DVDs prior to 2001 had been hard-telecined. This means the 3:2 pulldown was applied with interlacing at the time of the film transfer. DVDs after 2001 have been soft-telecined. This means actual 24fps on the disc with a flag of repeated frames, so the player performs the pulldown during playback. All soft-telecined DVDs can easily be IVTC'ed to 24fps. On hard telecines you need a very good processor.

But you're right, back on topic now!

[Konsolkongen]

sure.

Nice. Do you think your friend will let you lend his MVS again when testing it?

[Fudoh]

I sure hope so.

[grahf]

Well this is the first post I've made on here in years...

I'll be buying one of these as soon as it's released. I really hope it works out OK with an RGB modded PC Engine. I have one of those Lenkeng Scart to HDMI boxes, and I could never get a stable picture out of it. This composite video is killing me!

[fagin]

I doubt this will sort out sync instabilities imo.

I've tried polishing several turds in my time, with very little success.

[Konsolkongen]

But the Mini works more like the XRGB-3 in B0 mode, but with less lag. Everything I have thrown at B0 mode seems to work just fine, including SMS and MVS. Although usually not with V-sync ON...

[fagin]

But the Mini works more like the XRGB-3 in B0 mode, but with less lag.

Here's hoping you're right!

[grahf]

I doubt this will sort out sync instabilities imo.

I've tried polishing several turds in my time, with very little success.

Well in my case, I'm pretty sure it was the box. I even ran composite video through an LM1881, but no dice.

[fagin]

I doubt this will sort out sync instabilities imo.

I've tried polishing several turds in my time, with very little success.

Well in my case, I'm pretty sure it was the box. I even ran composite video through an LM1881, but no dice.

The PCE RGB Sync issues (which is what we were referring to) appears to be RGB MOD related, rather than the processor used. There is also some truth to this for the AES, depending on which RGB revision it uses.

Hence my previous comment.

[BuckoA51]

I don't think the internals of the new XRGB-mini have much in common with the original XRGB3 anyway, so its more a case of a whole new turd, or not...

[Konsolkongen]

Do you think the Framemeister will be able to add scanlines to the image before scaling to 1080p? If not, it must be hell making it fit with source height and position, and you'll probably need separate scanline images for all the various output resolutions.

I believe Fudoh has mentioned this earlier when talking MAME and scanlines. But in this case the source image may not be displayed correctly for scanlines when upscaled.

And IF they do a scanline mode like on the XRGB-3 will that lock the output resolution to 480p and cause the same compatibility issues (MVS, PC-Engine and SMS converter)?

Any thoughts?

[Fudoh]

Any thoughts?

can be done in many different ways. Most of them being wrong. The concept of adding scanlines BETWEEN deinterlacing and scaling unfortunately seems to be beyond most people's imagination. The problem with Framemeister is that both the deinterlacing (or linedoubling for 240p) and the upscaling is done inside the same IC, so it might simply not be possible to add a step in between.

While I would appreciate the Mini having scanline emulation, I would renounce the feature before getting some compromise solution.

For the Mini's launch, I'll be looking forward to these - important features.

- real 240p recognition
- good RGB compatibility (MVS, PCE, MD)
- real linedoubling (224 lines have to be output as 448 lines, not as 480 lines).

Everything else can come later.... If they get these three features right, I'm happy. I'll do Source > Mini > DVDO > SLG > TV then and everbody else can add a HDFury instead.

[BuckoA51]

Chumby's new NeTV can overlay graphics on a HDMI source without breaking HDCP, perhaps something like this might eventually lead to a HDMI version of the SLG?

[Fudoh]

unless the Chumby box isn't too expensive, one should be able to use this one right away. The overlay seems to be programmable using a server app or something similar. The problems remains though. It's extremely difficult (and different for every source) to overlay properly aligned scanlines over a 1080p image.

[Konsolkongen]

- real linedoubling (224 lines have to be output as 448 lines, not as 480 lines).

If it does this, adding scanlines should be a breeze right?

[Fudoh]

well, yes. If the mini offers a linedoubled 480p output (e.g. 448 lines with black borders filling up the 480p signal), then you can just use a HDFury and add a SLG3000. If they want to do internal scanlines, they could limit the output with scanlines to 480p, but I can't imagine that this would be a popular idea at Micomsoft. As said, adding scanlines, between linedoubling and scaling could be technically impossible, so my guess would be that they'll simply add a scanline overlay (240 lines for 480p, 240 lines for 720p output and 270 lines for 1080p... or they do 240 lines for 960p with borders.)

[Konsolkongen]

so my guess would be that they'll simply add a scanline overlay... (...and 270 lines for 1080p... or they do 240 lines for 960p with borders.)

Sorry you lost me there. Why 270 lines @1080p and what do you mean 960p with borders?

EDIT: Ah I just ran the numbers through a calculator. I think I see your point now

[Konsolkongen]

We still don't know for sure if the Mini accepts VGA input? If it does can you please try this combo Fudoh:

MVS > XRGB-3 in B1 > Mini upscaling to 1080p > TV.

[Seraphic]

Any information on weather or not the mini will support 4:4:4 24-Bit RGB in/out, eight channel 24bit/48khz hdmi in/out, and full/limited range color ranges? Other then that, is the release date still December? Really hoping it does a good job upscaling 480p and 720p to 1080p.

[Shin]

Some coverage of the Frame Meister by 4Gamer at CEATEC :
http://www.4gamer.net/games/095/G009575/20111027070/

[akumajo]

scanline feature