My first time playing Cave's DoDonPachi

[Zengeku3]

what's the point of exy if you don't chain

What's the point of bombs if you can dodge things?

[Skykid]

Exy may be best, but some players will prefer the more bombs that the other 2 have. I could probably cheese myself a 1-all with Leinyan or Shotia, but I pretty much just play Exy, so I usually game over in stage 4.

what's the point of exy if you don't chain

You know he's right, I put this back in the cab yesterday after Paradigm pissed me off and took Moozooh's advice about trying the shot type, bomb heavy ships. It took some adjustment but I'm starting to let go of Exy a little now and just shoot for a clear (cos I can't chain for shit.)

I was just like you: always played Exy and usually crapped out end of stage 4, middle of stage 5 on better runs. While I managed to chain stage 1 once all the way with Exy, it's hopelessly difficult with Shotia because she lacks the speed. So yeah, play Exy for chaining like Bananamatic says, and if you can't chain, embrace those free bombs!

[Zengeku3]

The reason I'd pick Exy even if I'm not going for score is that I find the first three stages ridiculously easy. That leaves only two stages and I don't want to be able to bomb-spam them. I'd prefer to actually need to dodge instead of just riding through the easy sections and then bomb away all the hard ones.

[dunpeal2064]

I use the lazer chicka. I can chain best with her (since her shot is weaker), but I can still kill things, and get a few bombs.

Plus, I just hate losing my laser powerups.

[Bananamatic]

The reason I'd pick Exy even if I'm not going for score is that I find the first three stages ridiculously easy. That leaves only two stages and I don't want to be able to bomb-spam them. I'd prefer to actually need to dodge instead of just riding through the easy sections and then bomb away all the hard ones.

that's why you have the second loop silly

[chempop]

Skykid, I was in the same boat (using Exy and getting far). Switched to C-S and cleared the first loop after just a short adjustment period.

As for playing DDP, I remember when I first got Mame running and played Dangun, Progear, EspRaDe, Guwange, and DDP for the first time in my life - man did I suck at shmups back then. Pretty sure it was about 8-9 years later that I was able to 1-All DDP. When j hear how people just started playing shmups and it only takes them a few months of practice before they start getting 1CCs I get all

[BulletMagnet]

Skykid, I was in the same boat (using Exy and getting far). Switched to C-S and cleared the first loop after just a short adjustment period.

Well sure, but you were using the secret C-Type ship, that's cheating!

[Bananamatic]

Well sure, but you were using the secret C-Type ship, that's cheating!

hey, DOJBLEX had stage 6

[AntiFritz]

Skykid, I was in the same boat (using Exy and getting far). Switched to C-S and cleared the first loop after just a short adjustment period.

Well sure, but you were using the secret C-Type ship, that's cheating!

Wait, what?

EDIT: On a somewhat related note http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Template:DonPachi_series
One can only wish

[chempop]

You know what I meant!
and those who don't will be searching the interwebz for secret ships in DOJ

[Zengeku3]

that's why you have the second loop silly

Yeah. Just too bad you need to play through tedious stuff to get there. Thank goodness for savestates.
That's one of the things Mushihimesama got right. Difficulty settings > Loops.

[spl]

that's why you have the second loop silly

Yeah. Just too bad you need to play through tedious stuff to get there. Thank goodness for savestates.
That's one of the things Mushihimesama got right. Difficulty settings > Loops.

I guess they are just 2 completely different games. Mushi Original 1CC is similar difficulty to DDP 1-ALL but I thnk they are like apples and oranges from a different era that can't be compared. Cave games seem different after DDP besides the Yagawa titles. They seem to be alot more score orientated in gameplay rather than survival/dodging like the old school. You can see most titles after DDP have some sort of bullet cancelling or temporary power-up system. Ketsui seems to be the closest to DDP in terms of this and you can see this in the artwork style aswell.. I remember reading Ketsui came out very fast after DOJ sort of as a "replacement".

I think also people here who don't recommend DDP as a beginner game are looking too far into things. You people are talking about chaining.. beginners don't even need to know what a chain is. DDP has straight forward bullet patterns and easy/intuitive controls. That's all you need as a beginner.

[Zengeku3]

I don't understand how them being two different games can have any relevance to be honest. There is no sense in requiring the player to play through Normal mode before being allowed Hard mode, no matter what kind of game it is. Just let players pick the difficulty that suits them best.

Its like in those games where you have to unlock the highest difficulty. Except in shmups, you have to unlock it every time.

[Erppo]

I don't understand how them being two different games can have any relevance to be honest. There is no sense in requiring the player to play through Normal mode before being allowed Hard mode, no matter what kind of game it is. Just let players pick the difficulty that suits them best.

Except that in all the looping Cave games after Donpachi, the loops end up being about equal in difficulty (except Progear maybe, I have no idea of that). Both DDPs and Ketsui have way harder scoring in the first loop with the second loop being more survival oriented so maxing out the first loop ends up as hard as getting through the second one with a decent score.

[Gus]

I don't understand how them being two different games can have any relevance to be honest. There is no sense in requiring the player to play through Normal mode before being allowed Hard mode, no matter what kind of game it is. Just let players pick the difficulty that suits them best.

Except that in all the looping Cave games after Donpachi, the loops end up being about equal in difficulty (except Progear maybe, I have no idea of that). Both DDPs and Ketsui have way harder scoring in the first loop with the second loop being more survival oriented so maxing out the first loop ends up as hard as getting through the second one with a decent score.

I think he means more in terms of survival. If you can't/don't want to chain then replaying the first 3 stages over and over gets very annoying very quickly and in that respect I'm a big fan of how the Mushi games did it how you can just play Ultra and get 2nd loop difficulty right out of the gate. Though it's kind of a moot point as you probably are good at chaining if you can get far in the 2nd loop of DDP games or even reach the 2nd extend in the case of DOJ.

[spl]

I don't understand how them being two different games can have any relevance to be honest. There is no sense in requiring the player to play through Normal mode before being allowed Hard mode, no matter what kind of game it is. Just let players pick the difficulty that suits them best.

Its like in those games where you have to unlock the highest difficulty. Except in shmups, you have to unlock it every time.

It's not like Normal mode/Hard mode. Think about the never-ending loop shmups from the old school like Raiden. That will just keep looping and getting harder and harder.

Basically DDP is like a throwback to the old school shmups with a modern danmaku twist.

[dunpeal2064]

Some people want to earn hard mode!

Ketsui's alternate 2nd loop would not be nearly as legendary if you could pick it from the start.

[Zengeku3]

Except that in all the looping Cave games after Donpachi, the loops end up being about equal in difficulty (except Progear maybe, I have no idea of that). Both DDPs and Ketsui have way harder scoring in the first loop with the second loop being more survival oriented so maxing out the first loop ends up as hard as getting through the second one with a decent score.

Yeah but for some of us, memorization is a curse word. Not everyone are interested in scoreplay. Difficulty settings offers the opportunity for score players to hunt for score like they would normally do and players who are just looking for challenging patterns without having to memorize too much. Loops means that people that are good enough to handle the 1st loop without too much trouble will be tired of having to go through it just to get to the hard parts.

Some people want to earn hard mode!

Ketsui's alternate 2nd loop would not be nearly as legendary if you could pick it from the start.

I dunno, Ultra mode in Mushi Futari is a lot more legendary as far as I've heard. I can understand why the strict requirement for the URA loop in Ketsui really helps making it more badass but I can also see how annoying it must be to get hit by those helicopters in Stage 5 resulting in the need to restart the game because you can't get to the loop you want to play.

[Gus]

I dunno, Ultra mode in Mushi Futari is a lot more legendary as far as I've heard. I can understand why the strict requirement for the URA loop in Ketsui really helps making it more badass but I can also see how annoying it must be to get hit by those helicopters in Stage 5 resulting in the need to restart the game because you can't get to the loop you want to play.

1.5 Ultra's hardness is actually mostly a myth. Larsa and the TLBs are indeed very difficult but to reach it all you need is a lot time and patience to memorize the correct path and it won't be so bad. I've reached Larsa in a run which included a purposeful suicide and I consider myself pretty bad given the time I invest into these games. Either way I have no idea how anybody could argue it's a good thing for a game to have a "hard mode" 99% of players won't be able to access without save states. I'd be shocked if the guy who posted that has even reached 1-5.

[Bananamatic]

memorization is a curse word

all shmups are memo and you won't get anywhere without it

[dunpeal2064]

@Zengoku3: I suppose thats why Cave made Mushihimesama. A lot of people were getting frustrated with shooters in general, considering the releases of Ketsui and DOJ in '02. Mushi was more aimed at a regular audience, but of course they had to add in that nasty challenge for people that were already used to their really hardcore games.

I am glad that Mushi is there to allow me to select my difficulty, but I would be a bit sad if none of the Cave games looped, but instead had selectable loops.

Heck, some games (MMP/PS, for example) give you both options. You can loop the game, or you can start at the 2nd loop. Also, in DOJ, if you want to fight the TLB, you can select 1-loop mode. The Saturn mode of the original DDP also gave the players a chance to fight the TLB after one loop through.

I think they cater to both sides pretty well.

@Bananamatic: I agree, in fact if a game doesn't require any kind of memo, it'd be pretty boring. Even older games like Mario and Sonic relied on the player learning a pattern (although a much more simple one than most shooters) and taking advantage of what you had learned to defeat the levels/bosses.

[Chaos Phoenixma]

Too bad DOJ BL 1 round is the first loop and not the second. We need modes like MMP Harahara for any game with a second loop.

[Estebang]

I'd say that the Deathsmiles games and Espgaluda 1 (and Akai Katana, possibly) are the examples of when Cave clearly made an effort to be more welcoming to less-skilled players and newcomers. DS 1 and 2 are the only Cave shmups where I can consistently reach the final stage.

DFK may have autobombs, but the chaining is as unfriendly as ever.

[Zengeku3]

memorization is a curse word

all shmups are memo and you won't get anywhere without it

The kind of memorization I'm talking about is the one where every single frame of gameplay is something you have carefully planned and memorized. Having to remember where there are bees, the correct timing with which to grab them, when you kill something, when you don't kill something, where you have to be 30 seconds into the stage, and where you have to be three seconds later. All that stuff.

I play shmups to dodge wicked patterns. If I need to memorize where enemies comes from to avoid them properly then that's okay. I just don't like it when the only route to a decent score is a static route you could probably program a robot to pull off for you.

[ChainsawGuitarSP]

The kind of memorization I'm talking about is the one where every single frame of gameplay is something you have carefully planned and memorized.

That is never the case in any competently designed shooter. Christ, your commentary on game design is almost as painful to read as DrTrouserPlank's.

[BPzeBanshee]

LOL @ whingers and their memorisation. You're forgetting where the genre started. See below.

I think also people here who don't recommend DDP as a beginner game are looking too far into things. You people are talking about chaining.. beginners don't even need to know what a chain is. DDP has straight forward bullet patterns and easy/intuitive controls. That's all you need as a beginner.

I find Raiden / Raiden II do this even better, which is why I don't recommend Dodonpachi, or rather recommend Raiden first. It has a method to its madness that I think is the core of most shmups' origin, and it does everything you mention about DDP but better (at least in my opinion anyway, aimed shots and small bullet count is straightforward to me). I'd go so far as to say it's the penultimate of how a shmup should be made but that'd make me just as silly as people who say that about DDP - bottom line is really you should offer them both plus one other game of a different kind again (Gleylancer, Thunder Force III, R-Type or something obstacle-based, or if you keep vert have a Raizing game which is somewhere in between) to have a trifecta of beginner's recommendations. Each of the three kinds is one of varied taste so you've got all bases covered so to speak.

You recommend Dodonpachi by itself to someone and they get used to that method and all of a sudden it's like every game has to be like Cave or bust, much like those Touhou fans that make you cringe (and not the moderate ones like we have here where they can see both its goodness and its flaws). I got brought up with Raiden Fighters 2 and JET which until recently still whooped my ass every time I tried it but it's left me open to other kinds of shoot-em-ups available as well, which based on what I've seen around doesn't happen with beginners introduced to Cave games.

[Gus]

Once you go Cave you don't go back.

[Deca]

Hey the first shooter I took seriously was DoDonPachi and I don't really care much for Cave at this point! I definitely prefer Raizing, and Psikyo as well, over Cave. Honestly when I first got into the genre I went through a brief period where I felt like the only shooters worth taking seriously were Cave games, I got over that as soon as I got into Batrider

So there goes both of your claims

[Zengeku3]

The kind of memorization I'm talking about is the one where every single frame of gameplay is something you have carefully planned and memorized.

That is never the case in any competently designed shooter. Christ, your commentary on game design is almost as painful to read as DrTrouserPlank's.

You have to memorize everything about the game to score well. There is no way around that. I don't know who DrTrouserPlank is or why what I'm saying is so painful to read. All I'm saying is that all that memorization kills the fun for me and that I find it a flaw in the game that there is no quick way to access the much more entertaining 2nd loop. A flaw that Mushihimesama did away with by adding difficulties. Its not objectively a flaw but its something that irks me still since I don't care about score, I just want to dodge hard bullet patterns.

Once you go Cave you don't go back.

Well... I still play Touhou games even after getting into Cave games. So how about rephrasing it a bit: Once you go Danmaku you don't go back!

[dunpeal2064]

If you just want bullet patterns, then don't play for score.

I can't score at all in DOJ, I only play it for the patterns. Same with Ketsui.

I've actually done more memo in Futari BL than most other shooters, maybe aside RSG