Are CAVE games too hard?

[evil_ash_xero]

It's just a matter of practice. Lots and lots of practice. Not just a few months - years.

This is quite an exaggeration. Of course it all depends on the intensity of your practice, but I think a few months should be enough for most people to get good enough to be able to clear games.

Well, I hate to point myself out here, but it took me ages to get any kind of skill with these things. And I still have nothing to brag about. The best thing I can say, is that I beat Mushi Futari 1.5 on Original. Impressive? No, but it's a legit win. And i've been able to get to the last stage of DOJ, which almost made me pass out.

I mean, when I first got a CAVE game, back in 2007(DOJ), it was like looking at a bunch of matches on the floor, and someone telling me to count them. It was just near impossible. I just didn't know what routes to take, or what to do, to get anywhere. And now, after playing for a number of YEARS, not months, I have certainly improved, but I mean, I don't how long it will take to beat harder games. I'm not going to dedicate my life to it.

That being said, I think you have to play them enough, to have the skills, and then you can beat them in months, with lots of practice. But that skill learning, can be a long and slow process.

Some people just may have the knack, but some of us gotta work HARD.

[DrTrouserPlank]

Nah, I've really had it with akai katana now. It's rage inducingly stupid in so many ways.

The difficulty isn't too ridiculous in general if you can get past some of the cheap shit it pulls like point-blanking you out of ninja mode, or firing super-speed bullets from cannons that are going off-screen and (frankly) shouldn't be firing, but I still however firmly believe that certain sections are designed and tested to be virtually impossible (that is, costing you at least 1 life out of the many coins you have no doubt already lost). The last two bosses are frankly bullshit. Some of the twins attacks actually blanket the screen at ridiculous speeds with the sole intention of being unavoidable. The last boss is similarly ridiculous and designed to do nothing more that cost you money. That isn't difficulty; it's deliberate bad game design intended to make you feed the machine.

Even if I could get to either one of them (which of course I can't) it's an utterly pointless endeavor. You'd be breaking your balls in order to get to a section that is clearly unreasonable.

I am literally staggered that no-one else (apparently) sees it this way.

I know people have tried to be constructive here, but most times I come away from the game this is my impression of it. A challenge is fine, but this and all their other games go from being challenging to impossible with absolutely no middle ground, and the gap between the two is immense.

Sessions like this put me in a seriously bad mood, and they are way too frequent.

[brentsg]

Nah, I've really had it with akai katana now. It's rage inducingly stupid in so many ways.

You'll have an even harder time selling this one. There were a lot of people getting fussy that AK was simply too easy.

There are a few things here, which I know others have stated. First off, there is some individual skill involved that is just physical (reaction time, vision, etc). Then there is a general set of techniques and skills people pick up by playing games in this genre over the years. Lastly there is the game-specific learning, where you plan and adapt to the game at hand. Plan your routes, identify bottlenecks and odd situations (you mention a couple of these for AK).

But seriously, if the games are rage inducing it really makes no sense to play them. I spent some time playing PVP in MMO's and it was really not fun. I have a good friend that is amazing, like top 1% easy. I played 2 vs. 2 with him and learned a ton. We got to the top 10% together, but it took nearly 500 games. I figure each lasted anywhere from a few minutes to an hour. He enjoyed every minute of this and I've still got a hole in my wall. It's shaped a lot like my mouse.

[Erppo]

Sessions like this put me in a seriously bad mood, and they are way too frequent.

I Don't get why would you even want to play the games then.

People who got good in these games, did so because they were having fun playing them. Right from the start.

[Skykid]

I still however firmly believe that certain sections are designed and tested to be virtually impossible

Dude there's no nice way of saying this, but basically you're just crap.

Akai Katana's 'ease' is quite exaggerated imo and I've cleared a fair few Cave shmups (including Futari, several times), but the stages are easy to get through if survival is your only aim; it's really only the bosses that like to play hard ball.

That said I exclusively play AK Shin because I prefer the higher challenge (it's probably twice as difficult I'd wager.)

You basically check out boss attack patterns by credit feeding, see them once and think that it can't be done - disregarding the fact that you haven't a clue about the holes in their attacks. Basically, you don't learn anything about the game before you write it off. Your entire approach is ass backward and if you don't have the patience to invest good time into learning it you'll never be able to clear it.

Give it up dude, it's tiresome.

[drauch]

How is this thread still going?

[brentsg]

How is this thread still going?

It's either this or George Lucas. Both are painful..

[RNGmaster]

Stop playing right now, sell all your CAVE titles to someone more deserving and never bother us again. We can't help you.

And that "ridiculously fast bullets" comment had me in tears. You've obviously never played Raiden or Gunbird. Cave bullets move at a comparative snail's pace.

[Moniker]

How is this thread still going?

The incessant trolling seems to lead to incredibly constructive and useful advice - for everyone but DTP. I think I've learned more from the patient responses in his hopeless whinging threads than any civil discussion. A very educational trainwreck.

NB: This is no way vindication of his behavior.

[dan76]

I won't hear anything against Akai Katana - it's a gem. The stage 5 boss goes on a bit I suppose ( I find the stage 2 boss harder ), but the last boss isn't nearly as difficult. His health goes down really fast.

Realise that we are all playing the same games - my Futari plays the same as your Futari, the games are a constant. It's the players who see them differently and find them easy or difficult.

You find these games difficult, unfair and impossible, but I don't, and almost everyone else on this forum doesn't - even if we can't play them particularly well, we at least can see it's our own lack of skill. But you seem to be immune to this. Nightmare.

[Obiwanshinobi]

Is it going to be the new "Why shmups are such a niche genre" thread?

[Gus]

DTP's posts are making me seriously lol. He has to be an alt of a high score board regular. He has to be.

[Sapz]

A cunning ploy, but obviously Gus is DrTrouserPlank.

Not really.

[ChainsawGuitarSP]

So when did this Cave bitching start anyway? you guys must be saints if you were dealing with this crap since day 1.

[Udderdude]

So when did this Cave bitching start anyway? you guys must be saints if you were dealing with this crap since day 1. :lol:

You'd have to go back in time and see the first responses to the 2nd level boss in Batsugun.

Probably something along the lines of "WTF IS THIS #$%!"

[NTSC-J]

And that "ridiculously fast bullets" comment had me in tears. You've obviously never played Raiden or Gunbird. Cave bullets move at a comparative snail's pace.

I was more dumbfounded than amused by this comment. If anything, Akai Katana has some of the slowest patterns in shooters, next to the Galuda games. I`ll grant you that the bosses in AK are quite tricky, but you spend most of the game being invincible.

After reading his latest meltdown, I feel kind of bad for giving him a hard time. He`s obviously suffering from some sort of mental or personality disorder and probably doesnt understand much of what goes on around him.

I think Novice mode in Futari may be a good goal for him to shoot for. Keep at it, Plank!

[RNGmaster]

You'd have to go back in time and see the first responses to the 2nd level boss in Batsugun.

Probably something along the lines of "WTF IS THIS #$%!"

God, please don't remind me about Madzella's second form. What the hell.

That part had me more dumbfounded than amused.

Who said I was amused? I was somewhere between sad and pissed-off by that statement.

[xavierjesus]

Yes.

Cave games are too hard.

If you're shit.

Like me.

Maybe Cave games aren't for you?

Get out into the big bad world.

Maybe wank off tramps in your local park.

Or something.

Instead.

Go get 'em.

Tiger.

Rarrr...

Believe in yourself. You are special.

Kind of thing.

Vagrant fiddler!

[RNGmaster]

The difficulty isn't too ridiculous in general if you can get past some of the cheap shit it pulls like point-blanking you out of ninja mode, or firing super-speed bullets from cannons that are going off-screen and (frankly) shouldn't be firing, but I still however firmly believe that certain sections are designed and tested to be virtually impossible (that is, costing you at least 1 life out of the many coins you have no doubt already lost).

>"i practiced a lot and know the game inside out derp derp but i'm still dying"

(╯°□°）╯︵ ┻━┻

Welp, I'm outta here.

[Skykid]

Icarus did this just for you DTP. Hopefully this will put your apprehension to rest.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oxhI_FqIiOI

[Udderdude]

OMG the bullets are going right through his ship! Stop tap dodging, THAT'S CHEATING! Blah blah rabble rabble

There, I gave you his reply for you :3

[Skykid]

OMG the bullets are going right through his ship! Stop tap dodging, THAT'S CHEATING! Blah blah rabble rabble

There, I gave you his reply for you :3

He said tap dodging was cheating?!

[ArrogantBastard]

you suck

learn2play

[evil_ash_xero]

Well, I haven't read all this thread, so I'm not sure where all the hostility is coming from(nerd rage?). But maybe it's deserved....I dunno.

But the thing is, if Akai Katana is "too hard"..well, you need more practice. If the frustration is too much, then you should probably just quit. I mean, you're gonna get frustrated. If you can't handle that, then you might want to play some easier games.

Have you tried DeathSmiles? You can choose pretty easy difficulties on that, and it's mondo-fun.

[RNGmaster]

Well, I haven't read all this thread, so I'm not sure where all the hostility is coming from(nerd rage?). But maybe it's deserved....I dunno.

But the thing is, if Akai Katana is "too hard"..well, you need more practice. If the frustration is too much, then you should probably just quit. I mean, you're gonna get frustrated. If you can't handle that, then you might want to play some easier games.

Have you tried DeathSmiles? You can choose pretty easy difficulties on that, and it's mondo-fun.

Look at the Futari thread in Shmups Chat. He's been complaining that the entire shmup genre is unfair and luck based for about 12 pages. I suspect that even if he chose to play Eden's Aegis Heaven or Blast Wind, he would have the exact same complaints.

[Udderdude]

OMG the bullets are going right through his ship! Stop tap dodging, THAT'S CHEATING! Blah blah rabble rabble

There, I gave you his reply for you :3

He said tap dodging was cheating?! :?

No, but it's the next logical step (Say the things that actually allow you to succeed are "unfair", etc.)

[Randorama]

... but I still however firmly believe that certain sections are designed and tested to be virtually impossible

you're hitting bottle-necks. If you don't sit down and figure out to pass them, then they will be indeed impossible. That's a big if, though.

You define bottle-necks here:

... but this and all their other games go from being challenging to impossible with absolutely no middle ground
Sessions like this put me in a seriously bad mood, and they are way too frequent

So, leave the games aside, play something less stressful, think on how to solve the Cave dastardly conundrum. Easy!

I am literally staggered that no-one else (apparently) sees it this way.
I know people have tried to be constructive here...

We've been through all of this, with less bombastic bitching on the forum and more Gung-Ho attitude to game understanding. One of my first posts on this board was about how unfair Esp.Ra.De was, Stage 4 onwards. Once I figured out what to do, I 1-CC'ed the game.

So, the moral of the story is:

"For successful life, Bitch less and Think More!"

Pc Engine Fan X will certainly approve of this ~_~;

[evil_ash_xero]

Look at the Futari thread in Shmups Chat. He's been complaining that the entire shmup genre is unfair and luck based for about 12 pages. I suspect that even if he chose to play Eden's Aegis Heaven or Blast Wind, he would have the exact same complaints.

Ah, I see.

[iconoclast]

The last two bosses are frankly bullshit. Some of the twins attacks actually blanket the screen at ridiculous speeds with the sole intention of being unavoidable.

The stage 5 boss is pretty hard if you're not constantly refilling your ninja meter. You just need to learn how to clump a bunch of bullets together as you exit ninja mode, and find an opening between her patterns for you to get in close and start building energy. The Type C character in particular is good for this, since she racks up tons of energy in just a few seconds (in Arcade mode).

Watch how phan does it here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d8UuV5cb ... re=related

[MX7]

I've been wanting to play devil's advocate since this thread started, and I'll probably get ripped to shreds. But yes, Cave games are too hard. They are arcade games that are designed to be impossible for the average player to finish, but with enough flashing lights, cool music and other lures to get you to shove another coin in.

It's all very well for people on this forum to say "no, Cave games are comparatively really easy!", but remember a lot of us have played these games for thousands of hours. A lot of people would think we're nutters for investing this much time. But this is the only reason we are any good. It's the equivalent of the French football team going 'naaaah, Scotland are really easy to beat', when in fact Scotland are better than 99.9% of football teams across the world. Remember, for every CLOVER-TAC, there's 100 players who are just playing it because it looks cool.

So fair enough. I think ascertaining that even something like Akai Katana is 'impossible' is reasonable. More than any other company, Cave promote this notion through their art desogn that their games are extremely hard. And if you can't get your head round the intensity, then they remain hard. Just remember that in terms of our fetish for extremely hard games, and the fact that many among us have particularly honed and developed skills in this genre, that as a forum, we are far from average video game players!