Are CAVE games too hard?

[DrTrouserPlank]

The purpose of a game (I am informed) is to act as an entertainment product and presumably provide enjoyment through it's consumption. However, can a game be fun when it is oppressively hard?

Are CAVE's games at odds with this definition when they are (primarily, in the case of arcade games) designed to remove coins from the pockets of players first and foremost? Is creating a game that is virtually impossible to complete without continuing like selling a jigsaw puzzle with 6 bits missing?

Bringing the question full circle; can a game that is virtually impossible to complete be fun, and under what conditions?

If your aim is to score as much as you can in 1 credit, is high difficulty a good thing or does it reduce your final total to nothing more that a "swerve and hope" tactic once the difficulty becomes unreasonable? If your goal is to clear the game in 1 credit, does the coin stealing mentality of the game make the goal nothing more than a pipe-dream?

[brentsg]

Again, if you don't like them then don't play them. You keep posting how much of a chore they are. Just do something else with your time, they aren't for everyone.

It's a niche for a reason..

[Paradigm]

If your aim is to score as much as you can in 1 credit, is high difficulty a good thing

Yes.

You have the wrong mentality, you don't fully appreciate these games. You're not meant to play it for ten hours, clear it, then stick it on the shelf and move on to the next one. They're not 'virtually impossible', they just require patience and dedication. Play more, whine less.

My original response was little more than an expletive, good luck with the rest of the replies

[Chirpy13]

Well most people buy or pirate them, so creditburning isn't a problem :V. And as above, if you dislike them, don't play them. Problem solved! Personally, I love them because of all the pretty bullets and the sense of accomplishment I get from making progress and clearing them.

[dunpeal2064]

Some people like to truely challenge themselves, and don't get happy just sleeping through a game.

I get far more joy out of something that was difficult to achieve.

I'm curious, what shmups do you actually like and find to have well-balanced difficulty?

[ChainsawGuitarSP]

Microscopic hitboxes and snail speed bullets do not make a game hard. Go play something like Truxton and you'll appreciate just how damned generous Cave really is.

[Erppo]

Why would you single out Cave? With only few exceptions (Ultras, some second loops), their shooters aren't any harder to clear than your average other arcade shmup.

[Dave_K.]

Cave games are designed to be difficult, but completely possible to clear on a single coin. I never felt they were unnecessarily cheap like most of the US made arcade games that were simple quarter munchers...those are pretty easy to spot. I get a lot of enjoyment playing Cave games, even the ones I haven't cleared yet.

[Elixir]

I actually just made a blog entry over something similar concerning Catherine, here. In brief, one of the modes in the game is randomized, to the point of being luck based, and while you do need to be well versed within the game's etiquette, there's still a lot of situations that you can't get yourself out of no matter what.

Shmups are entirely different, in the regard that bullet tracking and patterns are genuinely created with a "set path" to beat. If you can't beat a certain pattern, learn by repetition. If you can't survive during a run, bomb through that specific part. If neither of those options work, learn to score to reach extends in order to knowingly take a hit at the part you're being troubled with.

Can you imagine a purely randomized shmup, say DOJ, but with enemies that shoot a random pattern out of 5? It would be hard, but there also would be no etiquette, meaning the chances of someone having an easier run than someone else is actually completely luck based, because it's random, and not by memorization.

You should maybe be asking "Are SNK games too hard?" or "Are Capcom games too hard?", because I don't think they were designed for anything but profit.

[RNGmaster]

I was going to say something helpful, but I honestly give up here. Shmups evidently aren't the correct genre for you. Nothing any of us say will stop you from holding your incredibly warped views of what constitutes skill, and none of us can help you improve if you don't want to. Vittu tätä paskaa, I'm out of here.

[MrFog]

Bringing the question full circle; can a game that is virtually impossible to complete be fun, and under what conditions?

In some cases they can.

However, there are no CAVE games that are "virtually impossible to complete without continuing".

[ChainsawGuitarSP]

You should maybe be asking "Are SNK games too hard?" or "Are Capcom games too hard?", because I don't think they were designed for anything but profit.

Besides Metal Slug and Ghouls 'n Ghosts, what other SNK/Capcom games would be considered too difficult for their own good? maybe I just play too much Mega Man, but I've never thought of Capcom as hardcore.

[Icarus]

1) They're originally arcade games. Arcade games by nature are made to take your money from you. They aren't the stupid grind-happy or casual games you might be used to.
2) They can be cleared in one credit. People far and wide have done it and proved it countless times now. You unfortunately are one person who seems incapable of understanding or attaining that what is required to do so.
3) Scoring and all-clearing are but two factors in play. Some people like to score as high as they can (and occasionally, not clear), some like to go for the simple clear (and score like shit), some try and do both at the same time (which is the more difficult way to play). Which are you?
4) Go play Raizing-styled games like Pink Sweets, Ibara, and Great Mahou Daisakusen, then come back here and try to argue that traditional Cave-style games are difficult and unfair. Watch how many people laugh at you then.

As eloquent as you may seem, the majority of posters here consider you a lost cause, since no amount of advice or assistance seems to get through to you. A Cave game is no more difficult than a Raizing, Psikyo, Takumi, Success, Konami etc. You just need the right set of skills, mindset, and approach to beat them.

[Drum]

Absolutely not in the jigsaw-puzzles-with-pieces-missing sense - that's manifestly untrue. They are jigsaw puzzles tho.

[Elixir]

what other SNK/Capcom games would be considered too difficult for their own good? maybe I just play too much Mega Man, but I've never thought of Capcom as hardcore.

Any of the late 80's to late 90's arcade Capcom games that tell you to increase the difficulty in order to turn a profit. It's right there in the instruction sheet.

[dcharlie]

Any of the late 80's to late 90's arcade Capcom games that tell you to increase the difficulty in order to turn a profit.

yeah, Black Tiger/Dragon sprang straight to mind.

[Mortificator]

Guevara and Prisoners of War.

And I don't think Ghosts 'n Goblins or Metal Slug are unfairly difficulty.

[BIL]

[Drum]

what other SNK/Capcom games would be considered too difficult for their own good? maybe I just play too much Mega Man, but I've never thought of Capcom as hardcore.

Any of the late 80's to late 90's arcade Capcom games that tell you to increase the difficulty in order to turn a profit. It's right there in the instruction sheet.

Isn't that pretty common? I know a lot of flyers for arcade games hype difficulty settings for maximising profit.

[BryanM]

Does high difficulty make a game last years instead of minutes?

Yes.

[drauch]

Oh, it's been a week; let's start some silly thread about Cave games.

[Gus]

1. Get pissed off at DOJ
2. Make a troll topic
3. Run away like a coward
4. ???
5. PROFIT!

[JJXB]

honestly, as crap as i am at shmups (i'm slowly getting there though), i know that in a CAVE shmup, most of the time i die, it's because I messed up. not because the game is unfair (you want unfair? Look at this for many examples of unfair). but the salient difference in me getting pissed off when playing something like CoD4 and me getting pissed off when playing a CAVE "bullet hell" game is that i know that it's me that's screwing up in the CAVE game since it's designed to be played in a consistent way that won't bullshit you, unlike CoD4 where it's all pure luck based on who is host or if they are a quickscoping little shit (fucking glitchers). with a game like DOJ or Ketsui or most other CAVE games, the only thing you can blame for a screwup is yourself since the game has no "THAT'S BULLSHIT" moments (at least compared to most other games in any other genre). but in general, the shmup genre lends itself to being able to say "no, the game didn't cheat you, you just suck" if you throw round claims that the game is unfair in it's difficulty.

this is just my point of view though. so if you really want to pass what i say off as the ramblings of a shmup newbie, i can understand. but either way, i'll just continue enjoying DOJ and many of the other shmups i tend to play on and off (as much as I suck at them) since i know that i'm the one messing up and that I know I need to get better.

(incoherent babbling at 3 in the morning ftw)

[brentsg]

1. Get pissed off at DOJ
2. Make a troll topic
3. Run away like a coward
4. ???
5. PROFIT!

Oh it's much worse than that. He's pissed off at Futari 1.5 Original.

[xbl0x180]

Hahahah. Dude



To complain about the difficulty of these games is like complaining about the spiciness of Mexican, Indian, and Thai food. Anyway, I thought these games were supposed to be hard. They're not gonna patronise you by handing you a win if you don't have the pulse of steel to dodge the relentless bullet and laser patterns; they're doing you a favour by respecting your gaming abilities. Actually, I think CAVE games are really generous in giving the player tiny hit boxes, unlimited continues and practice modes for every level and boss, not to mention different difficulty modes.

Try playing non-danmaku games for a change. Something like Eschatos, Exzeal, Trizeal, and move up to Raiden IV.

[maxlords]

I love this thread. The OP is silly of course but you guys are making this great.

And yeah, Cave games are challenging...but that's the whole POINT of them. That being said, Toaplan and Raizing is WAYYYYY harder! Giant Toaplan hitboxes, insane rankings in Raizing stuff. There's no question that Cave stuff is far more forgiving (excluding stuff like Ibara that is essentially a Raizing game).

Same goes for a lot of Capcom stuff...Mega Man 1 springs to mind, and Ghosts N Goblins for sure. Someone said they're not but I'd say the GnG games are some of the hardest out there.

[Ganelon]

Why do millions of players spend 50 hours grinding in MMOs to simulate the process of gaining experience with little actual skill involved? For the same 50 hours in an arcade shooter (which is enough time to 1CC most Cave shooters), they can undergo the actual process of gaining experience with all the physical and mental trials that must be overcome.

But amongst casual players, a double standard has been set where more linear games are expected to have short completion times; otherwise, these games are considered to be too difficult. And even when these games do meet casual player demands that any area can be overcome within 3 tries, the games are then subjected to the other double standard of being too easy and short.

It's this general sense of laziness towards mastering a game based off one's own abilities—rather than relying on simulating this "leveling up" through menial tasks—that prevents many of today's players from enjoying arcade shooters. Now, whether these games should adapt to modern views is a valid question, but I'm sure Cave realizes that it's better to hold onto a core group of loyal supporters than to risk losing everyone.

[Drake]

The purpose of a game (I am informed) is to act as an entertainment product and presumably provide enjoyment through it's consumption. However, can a game be fun when it is oppressively hard?

Yes.

Are CAVE's games at odds with this definition when they are (primarily, in the case of arcade games) designed to remove coins from the pockets of players first and foremost?

No.

Is creating a game that is virtually impossible to complete without continuing like selling a jigsaw puzzle with 6 bits missing?

No. That was also a loaded question.

Bringing the question full circle; can a game that is virtually impossible to complete be fun?

Yes.

Under what conditions?

It doesn't matter if the game is fun, so asking is redundant.

If your aim is to score as much as you can in 1 credit, is high difficulty a good thing?

It can be.

Or, does it reduce your final total to nothing more that a "swerve and hope" tactic once the difficulty becomes unreasonable?

Loaded question, impossible to answer.

If your goal is to clear the game in 1 credit, does the coin stealing mentality of the game make the goal nothing more than a pipe-dream?

No.

Thread over, please lock.

[NTSC-J]

Is creating a game that is virtually impossible to complete without continuing like selling a jigsaw puzzle with 6 bits missing?

Unless you`re doing one of those preschool puzzles that have like 10 pieces (which is a strong possibility judging by your posts) can you really not put together a puzzle missing just 6 pieces?

[DrTrouserPlank]

Is creating a game that is virtually impossible to complete without continuing like selling a jigsaw puzzle with 6 bits missing?

Unless you`re doing one of those preschool puzzles that have like 10 pieces (which is a strong possibility judging by your posts) can you really not put together a puzzle missing just 6 pieces?

You can put together all the pieces that you have available to you and say that you've completed it, but you haven't really. The analogy was directed more towards asking whether it is "fair" to issue people a challenge without giving them the tools to overcome it?

Addressing a more general point that is raised, yes I do think shmups are the "right" genre for me as the gameplay itself is fun. My issue has been that that the game becomes increasingly less fun once the difficulty becomes obnoxious even in the face of many hours of practice.