Are CAVE games too hard?

[Drachenherz]

*snip*

Unless we are assuming that clearing them is meant to take well over 100 hours and tens of thousand of attempts, I don't know how people clear them.

this. Practice makes perfect.

[DrTrouserPlank]

*snip*

Unless we are assuming that clearing them is meant to take well over 100 hours and tens of thousand of attempts, I don't know how people clear them.

this. Practice makes perfect.

Well If that's the norm then fair enough. But many people here seem keen to claim they've cleared games after 5 goes, or within a day or two.

I've probably spent 40-50 hours on Futari (or it certainly feels like it) and barring some amazing bit of luck I am nowhere near to clearing it. Fortunately I'm sick of that game and have no desire to ever go back to it.

I'd say at least half the time I usually come off the machine in a bad mood after playing these games.

[Aliquantic]

It's only after a few goes for players who have already put in a lot of hours (and yes, that's more than 50) in other games, so they've got the consistency built up already and merely need to learn the stages. But a few goes is only going to be a mediocre run, and it's going to take you a lot more time than that to get to something like Sapz's no-miss of 1.5 Original, let alone a WR, where Japanese superplays are quoted as blowing up to a thousand credits a month in a single game to achieve near perfection...

It's not unusual to feel frustrated given how demanding those games are, but you're sounding like you're having no fun whatsoever looking at your posts, which is a little bit worrying

[RNGmaster]

I don't find that stops me from making mistakes. As I mentioned earlier, practice helps you to get through phases you couldn't get through previously. What it doesn't stop you from doing is losing lives at random spots which should be routine.

There is nothing in this video that you can't do. You have no excuse. If one part of the boss bothers you, look at how a superplayer does it and try to pull it off. And don't tell me that that's cheating, because it's actually much more fun to try to follow someone else's route than it is to blunder along aimlessly without a strategy and get frustrated (which is what you're doing).

You claim that you often end up walled in by an impassable clusterfuck of bullets with no way to save yourself - if so, that's because you planned poorly. Think about what avenues of escape you're cutting off by going out of ninja mode (which will aim all the reflected bullets at you), and think analytically about how you could go about a section differently. Don't give me any bullshit about there being only one way out of a situation, either - that's false and you know it.

[Pointman]

I'd say at least half the time I usually come off the machine in a bad mood after playing these games.

While I haven't been here for "teh drama" this sentence certainly implies that these kind of games aren't for you. By my own admission I am terrible at Cave games, embarrassingly so. But even I managed to 1cc Death Smiles MBL on my first credit in the arcade. After hours of practice I could get to the last level of Futari quite easily...and not pull my hair out. Cave games aren't hard, they just require memorisation and practice. A month or so ago friend of mine decided to go for a 1cc clear of Final Fight with Haggar. By his own admission he was terrible at the game and could barely manage to get to the 3rd level. Fast forward to last Monday and he managed to 1cc it, I saw him do it. All he did was practice and he got it in the bag.

Of course arcade games are designed to take your money but that doesn't mean that they are impossible.

[NTSC-J]

*snip*

Unless we are assuming that clearing them is meant to take well over 100 hours and tens of thousand of attempts, I don't know how people clear them.

this. Practice makes perfect.

Well If that's the norm then fair enough. But many people here seem keen to claim they've cleared games after 5 goes, or within a day or two.

It depends on the game. I beat Akai Katana after a couple of tries. Other recent Cave shooters have been about the same. Gunbird 2, on the other hand, took me about 350 hours spread out over 10 years. But as Aliquantic said, practice on one game helps with others. The great Clover-TAC, world record holder of many Cave games, says `In RPGs, the character levels up. But with shooters, the player levels up.` Nerdy words to live by.

I don't find that [practice] stops me from making mistakes. As I mentioned earlier, practice helps you to get through phases you couldn't get through previously. What it doesn't stop you from doing is losing lives at random spots which should be routine.

This is the thing that keeps sticking out to me. With practice you shouldn`t be dying in random spots very often. Try to do the same stuff every time and follow a path. If the path leads you to a death, revise it.

What do you think a piano teacher would say to a student that comes to class every week saying `no matter how much I practice this piece, I keep making mistakes`? Probably something like `you need more practice.`

BTW, I played Mushi Futari Black Label over the weekend for the first time in probably a year. A friend of mine wanted me to show a friend of his who had never played Cave games before how to beat them without continuing. On my first credit, I beat it. What incredible luck!

[Sapz]

The great Clover-TAC, world record holder of many Cave games, says `In RPGs, the character levels up. But with shooters, the player levels up.` Nerdy words to live by.

Haha, that's an excellent quote! I'll remember this one, thanks.

[Randorama]

Irrespective of the bullet density, mistakes still happen and practice doesn't eliminate them because if it were that simple you wouldn't accidentally dodge into a bullet in the first place.

Your use of the pseudo-impersonal form "you" is out of place. Your comments hardly generalize to a good chunk of the users here, so your arguments are not supported by facts. Aside this naive way of thinking:

You're practicing in the wrong way, or trying to do something still beyond your skills. If you observe no reduction of "random deaths" with iterated practice, then you still lack the correct method to play e.g. Akai Katana or whatever other title. By what you say below, I'd guess you're missing the right method.

Practice gets you past points that you couldn't get through because of pattern difficulty previously, but I don't think it stops you making mistakes at the frequency that you originally made them at.

if the frequency does not go down, then a player has the wrong method, or no method at all, or perhaps just not enough skills to implement the method. In this latter case improvement appears slowly, though.

That's the reason that clearing most of these games is very unlikely.

If you want to claim that "unlikely" means less than 5% of people actively playing a title, that is probably correct for certain titles (say, the DDP's). No player will ever get anywhere by lacking a method and whining on internet boards (as you seem to do a lot...), but certain Cave titles nevertheless require quite serious skills, aside a well-thought plan.

Aside all this, if you keep complaining about games' difficulty, make broad statements that can be easily disproven and use fruity rhetorical skills, you have excellent chances to be trolled to your heart's content, I daresay.

Randorama (!)

~_~!

[Icarus]

I agree with the sentiments from various members here, that your practice methods and approaches are probably wrong. I've always advocated that it's not just plain and simple practice, but good, focused, efficient, observant practice that makes perfect - just flailing about without a plan of attack is a complete waste of time, and you won't find improvements there. If you already know where your problem areas are, then that's a good first step, and you can use that knowledge to identify what it is that's causing the problem (eg: hidden enemy, particular bullet pattern etc), and then find a solution. You'll find that focusing your energy in problem-solving rather than expending hot air on the forum is a more efficient way to improving your abilities.

Case in point: I spent a couple of hours on Futari tonight, working on three of my main problem areas - st4boss (0M0B method, trying to figure out third form), st5boss (working on a 0M4B distribution method), and the second half of st5 - and I've managed to solve these particular issues within one sitting. All I need to do is commit to memory, practice it, then put it all together.

[dunpeal2064]

Do it Icarus... show us Magnum

[Udderdude]

I'd go as far as to say any shmup where you can just randomly flail about with no plan, and still clear it, is one that was never really worth playing .. :p

[Never_Scurred]

I'd go as far as to say any shmup where you can just randomly flail about with no plan, and still clear it, is one that was never really worth playing .. :p

Words to live by.

[DrTrouserPlank]

All their games seem to have a point at which practice make little difference though. Certainly when looking at success rate over a long period rather than if you can clear the stage on a particular attempt.

Practice gets me to this stage but then abruptly ceases to work apparently, which seems a bit of a strange concept. There's a definite point in their games where they go from being challenging to being obnoxiously difficult, presumably with the intention of being so difficult that you are required to plug the machine with money for the next 15 minutes.

I still don't know how you are meant to stop dying at completely random spots, and no-one else seems to have any idea how you can create a focused practice plan for something that has no focal point.

From a probabilistic standpoint it makes sense for the game to be able to grind you down. Even if you have a 5 stage game in which you can genuinely clear each stage individually 90% of the time, your chances of doing all 5 back-to-back is barely 60%.

[Randorama]

You're re-iterating your misconceptions with gusto, but repetita iuvant.

All their games seem to have a point at which practice make little difference though. Certainly when looking at success rate over a long period rather than if you can clear the stage on a particular attempt.

Cave games always have "bottle-necks". Roughly: without a specific plan to deal with certain enemies and their placement, one usually will not proceed further. Ketsui and its stage 4 is a good example: one needs to learn how to deal with the helicopters quickly spawning from the sides and shooting the concentrated streams of bullets, and their placement. Else, the stage is unsourmountable.

Practice gets me to this stage but then abruptly ceases to work apparently, which seems a bit of a strange concept.
There's a definite point in their games where they go from being challenging to being obnoxiously difficult, presumably with the intention of being so difficult that you are required to plug the machine with money for the next 15 minutes.

See above.

I still don't know how you are meant to stop dying at completely random spots, and no-one else seems to have any idea how you can create a focused practice plan for something that has no focal point.

See above.

From a probabilistic standpoint it makes sense for the game to be able to grind you down. Even if you have a 5 stage game in which you can genuinely clear each stage individually 90% of the time, your chances of doing all 5 back-to-back is barely 60%.

One needs a proper plan to play shmups, let alone Cave ones. Without a proper plan, chances to clear even the first stage are zip (or: 0%), let alone to clear the subsequent ones. A plan increases these chances, depending on the quality of the plan. Just to revel in out-of-the-blue and unfounded percentages, a bullet-proof plan corresponds a 95% success rate.

Going from 0% to 95% lies in sitting down and removing the points of randomness via proper use of neurons over time (a lot, usually), i.e. learning the game. Without this minimal effort, 0% is about what one merits.

So, less buzz words and whining, "kozo", and more planning.

[MR_Soren]

However, can a game be fun when it is oppressively hard?

Loaded question. Oppressively hard is your assessment. Difficult games can certainly be fun. Easy tends to be boring.

Too difficult does exist, and there are two varieties:
1. Unfair or junky game design.
2. Games that are too difficult for a specific player's skill level.

Cave's games are never of the former variety, but can be of the latter variety. I would say that if you're able to reach stage 3 or 4, keep practicing, but if you're stuck on the first two stages you might need something without such a steep learning curve.

Is creating a game that is virtually impossible to complete without continuing like selling a jigsaw puzzle with 6 bits missing?

Cave's games are not virtually impossible to complete. I've completed a couple of the easier ones on one credit. If you're having trouble with one game, maybe try another. I thought Mushi Futari was hard, but I played some of the arrange modes and cleared them on my first credit. Deathsmiles took me a week to get my first 1CC.

Also, on the wall next to me hangs a 2,028 piece jigsaw puzzle with 5 missing pieces that I assembled myself.

Bringing the question full circle; can a game that is virtually impossible to complete be fun, and under what conditions?

Cave's games are not virtually impossible. You really need to stop with the false assertions. Some are quite difficult, but they have all been cleared by numerous people.

However, some games are impossible to complete because they have no end. Tetris, Space Invaders, and Geometry Wars, for example. Many thousands people have considered each of those games to be very fun.

If your aim is to score as much as you can in 1 credit, is high difficulty a good thing or does it reduce your final total to nothing more that a "swerve and hope" tactic once the difficulty becomes unreasonable?

Difficulty is supposed to increase until it overcomes a player's skill level and gives them a game over. That sounds like what is happening with you, so everything is fine.

If your goal is to clear the game in 1 credit, does the coin stealing mentality of the game make the goal nothing more than a pipe-dream?

No. Lots of people have cleared them. If you cannot, practice more and/or play something easier.

[cools]

Practice gets me to this stage but then abruptly ceases to work apparently, which seems a bit of a strange concept. There's a definite point in their games where they go from being challenging to being obnoxiously difficult, presumably with the intention of being so difficult that you are required to plug the machine with money for the next 15 minutes.

Not at all.

STGs require two things to clear.
1) Enough learned general skill to be able to avoid what is being shot at you in the genre generally.
2) Knowledge of what is ahead of you in the specific game so you can put (1) to its best use.

(1) you could possibly put down to natural causes, but there are far too many people able to clear these games for that to be a specific downside. It's just a matter of practice. Lots and lots of practice. Not just a few months - years.

In short, the games are not too hard, you're just not good enough at them.

Suggestion: play a Yagawa game. The Asada and Ikeda programmed stuff tends to start off easily then ramp up the difficulty Level 3 onwards, so I find I tend to get bored of the first few stages and when the wall hits it's frustrating. The Yagawa games are generally challenging from the get go.

[Erppo]

It's just a matter of practice. Lots and lots of practice. Not just a few months - years.

This is quite an exaggeration. Of course it all depends on the intensity of your practice, but I think a few months should be enough for most people to get good enough to be able to clear games.

[Icarus]

Suggestion: play a Yagawa game. The Asada and Ikeda programmed stuff tends to start off easily then ramp up the difficulty Level 3 onwards, so I find I tend to get bored of the first few stages and when the wall hits it's frustrating. The Yagawa games are generally challenging from the get go.

Yes, go play Ibara. *snicker*

[Gus]

Suggestion: play a Yagawa game. The Asada and Ikeda programmed stuff tends to start off easily then ramp up the difficulty Level 3 onwards, so I find I tend to get bored of the first few stages and when the wall hits it's frustrating. The Yagawa games are generally challenging from the get go.

The first 2 levels are only boring if you don't play for score.

[RNGmaster]

Glirit mortin hed sarma shinem, perkeleen runkkari!

It's not often that you see Finnish and Armenian profanity in a single sentence, but I feel the situation warranted it.

[BryanM]

This is quite an exaggeration. Of course it all depends on the intensity of your practice, but I think a few months should be enough for most people to get good enough to be able to clear games.

No, seems pretty realistic to me. Even if you want to play through more than twice every day, there's only so much your brain can gain from that.

Some carry over of skill within the genre is obvious, but starting from nothing you're looking at a good decade for full competence. I envy some of you folks who got into the genre as kids.

Aw heck, this makes me want to take another stab at Ketsui. I'll 1 life you punkass Sphinx without bombs one of these days, you bastard.

[Erppo]

This is quite an exaggeration. Of course it all depends on the intensity of your practice, but I think a few months should be enough for most people to get good enough to be able to clear games.

No, seems pretty realistic to me. Even if you want to play through more than twice every day, there's only so much your brain can gain from that.

Some carry over of skill within the genre is obvious, but starting from nothing you're looking at a good decade for full competence. I envy some of you folks who got into the genre as kids.

I'm just using myself and some other people I know of as a basis for that. I had never touched any proper shmups before I started playing them regularly roughly 1.5 years ago. Looking back to my screenshot folder, I got my first arcade clear (DDP 1-ALL) about 3 months after. I think I could have done that even faster with better practice and more focus to a single game instead of randomly playing whatever I felt like.

[burgerkingdiamond]

The great Clover-TAC, world record holder of many Cave games, says `In RPGs, the character levels up. But with shooters, the player levels up.` Nerdy words to live by.

Haha, that's an excellent quote! I'll remember this one, thanks.

Awesome quote

[Gus]

This is quite an exaggeration. Of course it all depends on the intensity of your practice, but I think a few months should be enough for most people to get good enough to be able to clear games.

No, seems pretty realistic to me. Even if you want to play through more than twice every day, there's only so much your brain can gain from that.

Some carry over of skill within the genre is obvious, but starting from nothing you're looking at a good decade for full competence. I envy some of you folks who got into the genre as kids.

I'm just using myself and some other people I know of as a basis for that. I had never touched any proper shmups before I started playing them regularly roughly 1.5 years ago. Looking back to my screenshot folder, I got my first arcade clear (DDP 1-ALL) about 3 months after. I think I could have done that even faster with better practice and more focus to a single game instead of randomly playing whatever I felt like.

That's actually pretty good seeing I had been playing 6 months before I cleared it with a shit score. I really suck at these older MAME games for some reason.

Though like Icarus said I think it does more come down to how you practice than how long you play and I'd also add how much you enjoy it as well. For most of those 6 months I was horrible at the game and I didn't clear until a 3 day weekend where I buckled down and grinded away at the game for 20 hours total. I moved onto DOJ and despite putting in maybe 50 hours I only ever reached 1-5 one time.

To me this situation seems similar to what DTP's was with Futari 1.5 Original because despite it being an easy game to most people including myself he simply didn't truly enjoy and thus it was an impossibility for him to try hard enough to clear it. He seems to enjoy Akai Katana a lot more and is doing better so my advice is to just stick with that. I understand that initial frustration and the feeling of hopelessness but if you just keep grinding away at it consistently you'll get the stage routes down to muscle memory. Just remember bitching on message boards doesn't improve anything.

[Erppo]

That's actually pretty good seeing I had been playing 6 months before I cleared it with a shit score. I really suck at these older MAME games for some reason.

Well it's not like I was able to get any score back then. My first clear had less than 30M because I was basically just bombing every 30 seconds in the later stages. It still took a couple of months from that point to be able to play the game properly.

[NTSC-J]

The games are not too hard, you're just not good enough at them.

This should really be Cave`s slogan.

Going around in circles with DTP is fun and all, but what more can be said? Rando nailed it, he just needs to come to terms that he just isnt ready for games of this difficulty. Thats fine. Not everyone can focus for 30 minutes at a time and memorize patterns, etc.

But here`s some more advice anyways: DTP, post your high scores in the hi-score forum. It will humble you and give you more motivation.

[Never_Scurred]

Shmups.system11.org never met a troll they didn't like.

[RNGmaster]

Cave games aren't that hard but I can't say the same for my TrouserPlank right now.
Come on, nobody's made a dick joke yet?

[Kaiser]

MAYBE this is not on CAVE-fest topic but i'll give it a shot. I can reach final boss in metal slug 1 on 3-4 credits (yeah pretty bad) only for him to kick my ass hard, since I wanted to come up with a FULL-working strategy that would save me a lot of trouble... by accident I discovered that I CAN do this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6qjjDp8u7mI

Not exactly the best strategy but to say it gave a major boost perfomance during the last fight (read: I die less). I don't use save states much when playing my arcade games, I usually credit feed outta them and try something new on each run, whether it will work or not, I don't care, if it works, i'm gonna practice it . I only save state if some bosses give me a major roadblock like final boss in Battle Bakraid (which I spent 10 HOURS practicing on high rank to achieve near-sure victory on 2 lives)

Basically, if you don't experiment and don't have fun, you will get nowhere always. If you experiment and try even the craziest strategy to find one that works, you'll eventually find one that works for you.

[Udderdude]

Cave games aren't that hard but I can't say the same for my TrouserPlank right now.

TrouserPlanking is all the rage around here.