Are CAVE games too hard?

[NTSC-J]

Yea the latest generation of Cave games have been quite nice for the scrub.

DFK in particluar is interesting to me in that getting a 1-ALL and getting a good score are many miles away from each other.

[dunpeal2064]

People consider Muchi Pork easy?

[burgerkingdiamond]

YES, Ghost's and Goblin's is cheap and unfair as fuck. That game was made with only one purpose. To take your money and make you cry.

[RNGmaster]

People consider Muchi Pork easy?

High extend rate and easy rank management? I'm there. It's pretty easy to break as Yagawa games go.

[GaijinPunch]

People consider Muchi Pork easy?

Yes

[emphatic]

YES, Ghost's and Goblin's is cheap and unfair as fuck. That game was made with only one purpose. To take your money and make you cry.

That's two purposes.

[dunpeal2064]

Huh, perhaps I need to get boss milking down more. Is a 2-ALL considered easy, or just the first loop?

I've only made it to stage 4, but I haven't put a ton of time into it

[GaijinPunch]

Huh, perhaps I need to get boss milking down more. Is a 2-ALL considered easy, or just the first loop?

First loop is considered easy. 2-ALL is considered painfully hard. Don't you have to no-miss loop 1 to get to the 2nd loop? Use Rafute. Her bomb is crazy strong.

[Aliquantic]

No-missing to loop is true in 1.00 yes, but you automatically loop it on a 1cc in 1.01, so the 2-ALL is possible if still a little bit painful (But see EOJ and NTSC-J) I remember how Plasmo's WR list only had a 2-5 score posted for one of the characters in MMP! That's scary...

How do you manage the rank in that one though, RNG? Simply by not scoring (therefore no extends) or do you have a trick I'm not aware of that still allows you to score? (Suiciding doesn't cut it once your rank is already high)

[NTSC-J]

I 2-ALL'd 1.01 after a few weeks of dedicated play, so it's definitely not too hard, but 1.00 is another matter.

Although, come to think of it, I've never tried the 1.00 2-ALL challenge. You'd have to just not milk bosses and stock up on bombs, I imagine. Maybe I'll dust off the 360 and give it a go.

Edit: After three attempts, I can confirm this is for sure a steep challenge. No way to stock up on bombs without using the lard shot, so there goes the rank. Its funny, I usually die like 4 times in the first stage alone, so not dying at all now feels like a whole new game. wtf were they thinking...

[GaijinPunch]

The OST contains a Rafute 2-ALL run on DVD. It's pretty impressive.

[nash87]

the answer is no. psykio games are though

[burgerkingdiamond]

YES, Ghost's and Goblin's is cheap and unfair as fuck. That game was made with only one purpose. To take your money and make you cry.

That's two purposes.

haha. Yeah I realized that as I wrote it, but whatever. You lose your money and cry at the same time.

[NTSC-J]

The OST contains a Rafute 2-ALL run on DVD. It's pretty impressive.

I've got that one but it's back home in the States, unfortunately. Lucky for me, I'm but a few weeks away from a brief trip back home. (Heading out Texas way, GP, I'm sure you're jealous).

A shame the replay is for Rafute, Ikuo is my BBW of choice. The world record is "only" 264 million...

[ChainsawGuitarSP]

YES, Ghost's and Goblin's is cheap and unfair as fuck. That game was made with only one purpose. To take your money and make you cry.

Super Ghouls 'n Ghosts would be fun had the levels not been so lazily designed. HERP DERP, WAITIN IN ONE SPOT FOR HAZARDS TO PASS, OH MAN IT'S SO HARD.

[burgerkingdiamond]

YES, Ghost's and Goblin's is cheap and unfair as fuck. That game was made with only one purpose. To take your money and make you cry.

Super Ghouls 'n Ghosts would be fun had the levels not been so lazily designed. HERP DERP, WAITIN IN ONE SPOT FOR HAZARDS TO PASS, OH MAN IT'S SO HARD.

I've cleared GnG for NES (both loops) a couple of times. That version is hard as shit, but with enough perseverance it's doable (while still being very frustrating). I tried the arcade version in MAME, but I couldn't take it. I made it to the blue cave level but the Red Devils behave differently than in the NES version and I just said fuck it. I was getting absoluetly no enjoyment out of it.

[GaijinPunch]

brief trip back home. (Heading out Texas way, GP, I'm sure you're jealous).

Yeah, big time. Get a can of hair spray and eat some grits for me.

[evil_ash_xero]

Well, they were "too hard" for newbies, from about ESP Ra.de. thru Ketsui(DOJ and Ketsui being the pinnacle of tough). But if you practice, they're all pretty playable(well, except for Dangun...god, i'm bad at that). I thought they were WAAAAYYYY too hard, when I first started.

Since then, they've had some hard ones(ESPGaluda II), some very fair ones(Futari), and some piss easy ones(DFK, DS, and Katana). They're definitely getting too easy now.

[Aliquantic]

Since then, they've had some hard ones(ESPGaluda II), some very fair ones(Futari), and some piss easy ones(DFK, DS, and Katana). They're definitely getting too easy now.

Play for score, play for the loop, play DFKBL Strong, play the challenging types (Power in DFK or even Bomb), do go for the EX stage(s), Death Mode or even level 999 in DS, do not take the path of least resistance, realize DOJ is a sheep in wolf's clothing, come back in the hi-score forum.

It seems a fair bit of a contradiction when I remember you saying how some of those games looked completely out of your reach and you wondered how people could beat them though! (Like here)

[evil_ash_xero]

Since then, they've had some hard ones(ESPGaluda II), some very fair ones(Futari), and some piss easy ones(DFK, DS, and Katana). They're definitely getting too easy now.

Play for score, play for the loop, play DFKBL Strong, play the challenging types (Power in DFK or even Bomb), do go for the EX stage(s), Death Mode or even level 999 in DS, do not take the path of least resistance, realize DOJ is a sheep in wolf's clothing, come back in the hi-score forum.

It seems a fair bit of a contradiction when I remember you saying how some of those games looked completely out of your reach and you wondered how people could beat them though! (Like here)

It's hard to explain. Just because I can't beat them, doesn't mean I don't like them. I like them that way. I want to work for it! And if it never happens, so be it. I'm much more of a survival guy. I can't really get into score playing. Except for DeathSmiles, which for some reason I found to be very addicting, in the score department.
I usually just play for score, to get extra credits, and then I just try to beat the game. One step at a time, I guess.

And i'll totally stand by that statement. They are getting way too easy. I don't see why, I mean, just have "maniac" mode, or something, for the folks who want a bigger challenge. Everyone would be happy.

[Aliquantic]

And they do have that challenge, it's just not called Maniac mode now! DFK has Power, Bomb to a lesser extend, and its loops like I said, and you could go for the DSMBL 1cc with both EX stages (I see you made it to 5-1, how far did you get?) or throw in Death Mode and level 999 for good measure Add in DFKBL (hold down both shoot buttons all the time) and those are some of Cave's hardest games to clear, with the DFK Power 2-ALL happily rubbing its shoulders with DOJ.

If you want an example of a game that has very little challenge in pure survival play, I'd look at Deathsmiles 2, but DFK and DS are perfect examples of games that let you set your own difficulty from trivial to insane challenges (ever seen Power Hibachi in DFK 1.5, reached Bloody Jitterbug or Zatsuza?). I can't comment on Akai Katana but from what I've seen, it looks a lot like Espgaluda II and easy to clear if playing for survival, but hard to score in.

[DrTrouserPlank]

I don't think Akai katana is easy in any sense. Arcade mode might be a bit less dense on bullets than Futari, but the last 2 bosses of katana make up for it as the screen is just awash with nonsense.

I don't see much difference in difficulty in any of Cave's games from a perspective of trying to just clear them. It still comes down to the same thing that has always been my bug-bear; holding onto lives for the duration of the run is just terribly unlikely. Even if you know you can clear levels and don't have sections that give you particular trouble, the lives just drip away with mistakes.

Irrespective of the bullet density, mistakes still happen and practice doesn't eliminate them because if it were that simple you wouldn't accidentally dodge into a bullet in the first place. Practice gets you past points that you couldn't get through because of pattern difficulty previously, but I don't think it stops you making mistakes at the frequency that you originally made them at. That's the reason that clearing most of these games is very unlikely.

[Paradigm]

You're just shit.

[DrTrouserPlank]

You're just shit.

Thank you for your insight.

[Gus]

Why the hell are you even here still?

[Zaarock]

I don't think it stops you making mistakes at the frequency that you originally made them at.

Memorize a route and do it again. An amazing technique that is clearly only relevant in caveshmups.

[DrTrouserPlank]

Why the hell are you even here still?

Because I find this to be a very friendly and inclusive community.

I don't think it stops you making mistakes at the frequency that you originally made them at.

Memorize a route and do it again. An amazing technique that is clearly only relevant in caveshmups.

I don't find that stops me from making mistakes. As I mentioned earlier, practice helps you to get through phases you couldn't get through previously. What it doesn't stop you from doing is losing lives at random spots which should be routine.

[dunpeal2064]

Goddamn, you still don't get it. And your still wrong.

I'd provide evidence to back that up, but it wouldn't make a difference, as you are completely oblivious to what the others here have to say, even though they have way more experience than you.

Obviously, for you, the answer is yes, Cave games are too hard, and with your lack of skill, only something.like luck would get you through the game

[dan76]

I found Akai Katana arcade mode to be a good challenge (Zetsu is easier), particularly the last two bosses as you said. I think I've only cleared it 3-4 times but each successive clear I've improved my score. It's a weird game - normally I play for survival until I get the 1cc then concentrate on scoring but with this I played for score right from the start, mainly because I really liked the large circling gold thang, they're as addictive as Ketsui's 5-cubes (I'm probably repeating myself here).

Don't forget that to losing a life in Akai Katana makes your ninja gauge larger and therefore makes the game easier, so no need for the constant restart if playing for survival.

To score well you ultimately want to no miss the game until the Stage 5 boss as having max lives increases the number of bullets shot at you (which is where all the scoring comes from).

Wow, I've actually got drawn in to give a reasonable answer - I think it's just the chance to talk about Akai Katana...

Cave games aren't too difficult BTW, it just that the worse you are the more luck you need.

[DrTrouserPlank]

I like Akai Katana as such, but I find it rage inducing like most of their games when you end up with a barrage of shit on the screen, no bombs and no ninja meter and you know you are going to die.

I like Cave's games, I think they are engaging but the eventual difficulty of them is ridiculous. Great for emptying people's pockets, but programmed with this solely in mind.

Unless we are assuming that clearing them is meant to take well over 100 hours and tens of thousand of attempts, I don't know how people clear them.