9th Annual Top 25 Shmups of All Time - discussion thread

[incognoscente]

Quick links

• Rules
• Ballots
• Discussion
• Results

Discussion Thread

Last year the discussion and commentary threads were both a bit thin on the ground, so I'll start them as a single thread this time. I can split them again if things get out of hand, but we'll cross that bridge if we get there. As far as I'm concerned, the ballot talk is the discussion.

Feel free to provide commentary on your own ballot, discuss the ballots of others (friendly ribbing is A-OK, just keep it civil), discuss a game's chances, discourage (in a friendly way) votes for a particular game, discuss trends of past years, stans, and etc.

You can also ask about the eligibility of a single game if the categories in rule #07 didn't help. Don't be too surprised if I have to ask others for input, though, especially if it's doujin software.

• Results of lists past

8th Annual Top 25 Results: through 2009
7th Annual Top 25 Results: through 2008
6th Annual Top 25 Results: through 2007
5th Annual Top 25 Results: through 2006
4th Annual Top 25 Results: through 2005
3rd Annual Top 25 Results: through 2004
2nd Annual Top 25 Results: through 2003
Inaugural Top 25 Results: through 2002



To link directly to your ballot (or any other post):

1. On the post in question, look at the upper right where the date stamp is. (I hope this is consistent across all themes.)
2. Right-click on the little sheet of paper to the left of the Posted: text and copy the link address.
3. Make a link in your commentary post using that destination.

[incognoscente]

My ballot started as 25 Years of Shmups with one game per year, but then I found a few years where I didn't think anything was truly notable so I skipped those and doubled up on others. Originally started in 1978 with Space Invaders but I fired it up again and holy hell did the clones and sequels improve it. So the list pretends to start at '78 but actually begins in 1980 because that's the first year where I can actually derive any enjoyment from playing the games.

I didn't want a single year, developer, or style to dominate, and had the additional requirement that anything I listed had to be something I'd be willing to fire up pretty much any time. This led to some conspicuous absences (Defender, Salamander, and Einhander to name but three), but it does express my opinion okay.

Not all picks are set in stone. If Dale or Rob want to sweet talk me into exchanging Vulgus for 1942, for example, my ears are open.

[professor ganson]

I love that approach, incognoscente-- both the diversity in range of years and developers. I'd like to improve my own list in those directions. As it stands I definitely have too many Raiden-oriented games.

[Icarus]

Are we able to vote for Akai Katana and Strania yet? Or is it too early for those?

[incognoscente]

Trying to vote without reading the rules, are we?

I removed the restriction on release dates this year. I haven't been keeping up well enough with releases to even try to enforce it, and since I'm running the poll this late in the year, I have a hard time seeing the point. If you believe that Akai Katana and Strania are worthy candidates, feel free to include them on your ballot.

I'm sure these will prove to be famous last words, but I hope to run the next Top 25 toward the very beginning of 2012. If that does come to pass, the rule may return since it will make more sense then.

[Icarus]

Trying to vote without reading the rules, are we?

I did read the rules, lol, and I distinctly remember said rule being enforced last year, but since it wasn't anywhere within this year's conditions, I thought I'd get some clarification first.
And yes, I deem Akai Katana and Strania more than worthy.

[incognoscente]

It was a good question. I just couldn't resist the joke.

Vote away!

[mjclark]

So do the sum of the points allocated have to add up to the same total for everyone (ie 25+24+23....+3+2+1?) or could I allocate 10 points each to all 25 games (total 25x10=250 points) and someone else allocate 25 points to the first 10 games the 10 points to the next 15 (total [25x10]+[10x15]=400 points)?

In incognoscente's list the points total is 100 but in professor ganson's list the points total is only 83.
Unless everyone's points totals are the same then the lists can't be combined to produce a final result.

[Blackbird]

I'm technically disqualified from voting since I haven't played 25 shooting games (I'm working on it!). So I'll just heckle the voters =D.

[incognoscente]

So do the sum of the points allocated have to add up to the same total for everyone (ie 25+24+23....+3+2+1?)

No, they don't have to add to the same total.

As noted, you're establishing a fraction for each game by the values you give. The numerator is the score you give to the game (which is why you need the biggest number for your favorite) and the denominator is the sum of all the scores you give. In this way, everyone has an equal say (a single point of influence) regardless of how they weight their games.

If you make a simple ranked list, the sum of all your numbers is 325. Your top pick doesn't get 25 points of influence but rather 25/325 (or roughly 7.7% of a point of influence). Your lowest pick gets a 25th of that, or 1/325 (roughly 0.3% of a point of influence).

Since everything on my ballot is ranked the same, the value chosen doesn't really matter as long as it's consistent (25/625 == 4/100 == 1/25). I chose the value 4 because each one gives 4% of a point of influence, so it's a nice visual representation of the weight of each.

[louisg]

Wow, these lists are hard to organize. I ended up doing 3 tiers: 1.) All time favorites 2.) Games I'd play anytime (as opposed to the many shmups in my collection that've worn out their welcome ) 3.) Nostalgic favorites (games that came along at the right time). I need to replace vanilla Galaga on my list though since Galaga '88 is basically "the Galaga I prefer playing" now. Hmmm.. decisions.

Mid-late 80s shmups are under represented.. should I swap Fire Shark back in where Galaga is?

http://shmups.system11.org/viewtopic.ph ... 28#p704328

I didn't want a single year, developer, or style to dominate, and had the additional requirement that anything I listed had to be something I'd be willing to fire up pretty much any time.

Yeah, I felt the same way (except for my nostalgic selections)

[Mero]

I just went with 25 titles that I've played and enjoyed, and devoted a fair amount of time to (in some cases a LOT of time).

My list's fairly similar to what I had last year with a few new additions and omissions. My only nostalgic vote goes to Pheonix, which has the honour of being the first STG and first arcade game I ever played, they had a table cab of it in our local Chinese back in around 83/84ish. I'm not much better at it now than I was back then

EDIT:Deja vu, I'm sure I regaled the Shmups forum community with the tale of how I first played Pheonix in last years discussion as well

[hwl]

I picked my 25 favourite shmups and weighted them in order to compensate for games which are imo over- or underrated. Hope that makes sense. -.o

[emphatic]

My list has about the same games as last year, but I've been more "realistic" this time and dropped down some of the entries that's been on the list because of nostalgia.

[MX7]

I did my list a while back. Glad I got it sorted, it was a headache. I made a really wanky system to make sure that every game was properly positioned and that I didn't miss any. Though now I realise I've completely missed Air Gallet off the list oh well.

The best part is reading other people's lists. Out of the lists posted so far, Icarus and NTSC-J in particular have great taste. But... we knew this already. Looking forward to more lists being posted

[burgerkingdiamond]

I don't feel like making a list. Just somebody vote for Gemini Wing, that game is BOSS.

[NTSC-J]

The best part is reading other people's lists. Out of the lists posted so far, Icarus and NTSC-J in particular have great taste. But... we knew this already.

Muchi Pork for '11!

While my list looks like I think MMP is leagues better than everything else, I just want to make sure it ranks finally. It's been one of the best games in the genre since it came out 4 years ago and has gotten the shaft since few people have been able to play it, but now the time is ripe to make the top 10.

[Vyxx]

C'mon ya'll where is the Xexex love?

[Zaarock]

I think this was the first year where I felt like there were lots of games I left out.

Tried to represent some underrated titles along with doujin games that never get enough votes to get on honourable mentions because of the lack of notice they get here. Might still change the list a little but it's mostly solid now. Probably would have more yagawa games on the list if I had played them all, haha

Hoping Strania ends up in honourable mentions, I think it's on par with other G-Rev titles, especially with Side Vower.

[AntiFritz]

In reference to zaarock's submission.

[12] [Dangun Feveron] (360)

Am i missing something here?

[DJ Incompetent]

@emphatic
Why the Majestic Twelve version? Just curious

[Zaarock]

Am i missing something here?

Nah, just an error when switching around the titles lol. Hoping it does get that xbla release eventually.

[17] [Raystorm (HD)]

I'm curious as to why that is your favorite of the ray-series?

[mesh control]

Muchi Pork for '11!

I think MMP will make the top 5.


I voted for Metal Black for some reason.

[emphatic]

@emphatic
Why the Majestic Twelve version? Just curious

You can select route and mix it up a bit. In Super Space Invaders '91 you first play A route THEN B route before the bonus stage. In Majestic 12, you only play the first couple of stages on the route you select and never get the first stages of the other route. So it's shorter, kinda, but I liked it more this way.

[DJ Incompetent]

[17] [Raystorm (HD)]

I'm curious as to why that is your favorite of the ray-series?

1. Learderboards 2. It's cleaner to me. That ghetto-zoom-in thing they did makes the bullet patterns more clear and fair. I prefer it to complaining about the reduced playfield for scoring for a game that relies on memorizing enemy placement to score anyway. 3. RayCrisis I never really got into that weird encrochment meter shit, RayForce I've only done 2 credits with, so I had no way to really explore it.

@emphatic
Why the Majestic Twelve version? Just curious

You can select route and mix it up a bit. In Super Space Invaders '91 you first play A route THEN B route before the bonus stage. In Majestic 12, you only play the first couple of stages on the route you select and never get the first stages of the other route. So it's shorter, kinda, but I liked it more this way.

Hm. I think I will play that then.

[emphatic]

Hm. I think I will play that then.

Do it. I made a short video a couple of weeks back that I put in the YouTube thread here in the Shmups Chat. In case you want to check out some average playing.

[cj iwakura]

Raystorm VS Raycrisis is a tough call, but I vaguely recall Raycrisis being slightly better.

[Aliquantic]

Out of curiosity, is the ranking established based on the weighed ratings alone, or a mix of ratings and number of nominations? I've looked at the results for the last few years and (not being very bright!) I couldn't figure it out

[AntiFritz]

Am i missing something here?

Nah, just an error when switching around the titles lol. Hoping it does get that xbla release eventually.

[17] [Raystorm (HD)]

I'm curious as to why that is your favorite of the ray-series?

Yeah lol, the ports supposed to have been finished for ages or something hasn't it...

[incognoscente]

Out of curiosity, is the ranking established based on the weighed ratings alone, or a mix of ratings and number of nominations?

It's a mix. 2/3 of the score comes from nominations. The remaining 1/3 uses the weighted votes.

If you want more detail, I've provided some nitty gritty below. No offense taken if you'd rather skip it, though.



Final score, the one used in the final rankings, has two components: the popular score and the weighted score.

The popular score of a given game is equal to ballots_including_game / number_of_voters. So if there was a game that was on every voter's ballot, it would get a 1. Usually no game gets very near to this, though. Last year Battle Garegga appeared on 52 ballots (more than any other game), but there were 92 voters. Hence its popular score was 52/92 (roughly 0.57).

I described how a single ballot contributes to the weighted score above, so I'll skip to the next step.

Once all ballots have been processed, the highest weighted score is found and then every weighted score is divided by this (bringing all scores into the range of 0 to 1). So with last year's numbers again, Ketsui had the highest weighted score with 3.161967. Its adjusted weighted score, therefore, was 1. Battle Garegga's weighted score was 2.731759 so its adjusted weighted score was 0.86 and some change.

The final stretch is simple stuff. A game's final score is the popular score doubled + the adjusted weighted score. If a game was on all ballots and had the highest weight, it would get a perfect score of 3. Since 3 doesn't look very impressive for a superb specimen, we multiply the final numbers by 10/3 so the final display results are out of 10.

With Battle Garegga numbers again: 2 * 0.565217 + 0.863943 = 1.994377. Multiply that by 3.333333 and you get 6.647923 .