Dodonpachi DOJ Beginner - Confused About Versions/Ships

[ancestral-knowledge]

Hello everyone.
First of all i have to say that I am very confused about DDP DOJ.

I watched this huge scoring thread about DOJ and a video from sapz(dude) on youtube and this game is without doubt truly beautiful. I'm quite new to the shmup genre so I don't get the mechanics in every detail yet but i have an idea how the game works. I just finished 1cc'ing Daifukkatsku (score is not worth mentioning) and i am currently playing the black label version of it (very hard though ).

What i want is corrections about the statements i will provide below since i know really very little about the game. i really want to get into the game after i've played Deathsmiles for an indefinite amount of time and my first goal would be a 1cc.

So yesterday i played a bit (4 hours) of the PS2 version and the XBOX version. Needless to say that i got destroyed by the game i scored a lousy 22mio (PS 2 version) on my best run to stage 1-4. I played with Type B SHOTIA and what the heck.... she seems to be so slow when lasering. Question here is.... is she even a viable choice for a 1cc or am i crippling myself? I don't have tried Type A or other Elemtal Dolls yet but judging from alle the youtube videos TYPE B or SHOTIA seems inferiour... again am i mistaken?

Another problem here is that, like in every of their games it seems, CAVE has released like billions of versions of the game. I am at the point where i don't even know what i am playing. I read like 35 threads on this board and cave-stg but there is no thread like for fukkatsku where all the versions are listed nicely and differences are explained. I am totally confused. And i'm not confused about game mechanics since i don't understand them anyway at this point but the jungle of versions is bugging me.

What is the version of the PS2 i was playing?
What is White Label? Is this the Ps2 version?
What the heck is new arcade compared to old arcade mode on XBOX360? Which one is easier/ more 1cc-friendly? is old arcade White Label or the PS2 version?
Is Black Label on XBOX easier than the PS2 version or the ""normal" version? Sould i play Black Label for 1CC?
Is there a normal version of the game which represents the arcade/ PCB version or is this the PS2 version?
Do the the Ship Types or their behaviour in the game differ for any of the versions? I am asking this because i wanted to stick to B - SHOTIA, so maybe there is a version where she sucks less...or am i just too bad?

I think i scored better on the PS2 version, though the XBOX Version was easier... i know this is vague, but it seemed i got hit more often on the PS2 version but then again... what do i know?

I apologize for my terrible english (I'm from GER) and i hope this is not the 1000th thread of the same topic but i really searched the forum for information on the versions but couldn't find much except some threads wo went deeply into game mechanics.

Sincerly
a.-k.

[Skykid]

1: What is the version of the PS2 i was playing?
2: What is White Label? Is this the Ps2 version?
3: What the heck is new arcade compared to old arcade mode on XBOX360? Which one is easier/ more 1cc-friendly? is old arcade
White Label or the PS2 version?
4: Is Black Label on XBOX easier than the PS2 version or the ""normal" version? Sould i play Black Label for 1CC?
5: Is there a normal version of the game which represents the arcade/ PCB version or is this the PS2 version?
6: Do the the Ship Types or their behaviour in the game differ for any of the versions? I am asking this because i wanted to stick to B SHOTIA, so maybe there is a version where she sucks less...or am i just too bad?

1: PS2 is regular original DOJ, a straight arcade port (some call it white label)
2: See above. White label is just what the original game has been dubbed in light of the later Black Label release.
3: Old is White Label (same as your PS2 ver) New arcade is Black Label, which is more 1cc friendly because hypers rain quicker (worth noting life extends are further apart though) and iirc some hitboxes on bullets are a touch smaller.
4: Yes and yes.
5: Yes, it's the PS2 version and 360 'Old arcade'. Ignore these, play Black Label (New Arcade.)
6: Ships and characters are the same across both versions (WL & BL), so you can stick to B Shotia if you want.

You'll get the hang of it in time. Playing for a straight clear is no easy task in itself, but easier than attempting to chain and score and drive the rank through the roof in the process. Shotia's enormous bomb stock makes the clear more viable, just remember to actually use the bombs or you won't get far.
Most runs you will see are of players looking for score, so they play characters other than Shotia who are more powerful (like EXY) but have very limited bombs.
If you're focussing on scoring, you'll need to learn to chain as many enemies as possible so your combo counter reaches at least three digits, and then collect the hidden bees.
It's way more complex than it sounds but I wouldn't worry too much about learning that just yet.

Hope that helps a little.

[ancestral-knowledge]

Thank you very much skykid!

You explained everything nicely. Another thing is that the game seems a little bit blurry... i have some saturn shooters as well which have lower resolutions but are crisp clear... maybe i should get my eyes checked...

I will be playing the "new Arcade" Mode today some more with SHOTIA - B when i come back after work. Btw is it true that some guy cleared death label after like 7 years? I laughed my ass off yesterday when i tried it... it's ridicilous

sincerly

a.-k.

[Sumez]

Every Cave game on 360 looks blurry to me

Except DS with its HD graphics, so I guess DFK and Akai are exceptions too.

[Skykid]

Thank you very much skykid!

You explained everything nicely. Another thing is that the game seems a little bit blurry... i have some saturn shooters as well which have lower resolutions but are crisp clear... maybe i should get my eyes checked...

I will be playing the "new Arcade" Mode today some more with SHOTIA - B when i come back after work. Btw is it true that some guy cleared death label after like 7 years? I laughed my ass off yesterday when i tried it... it's ridicilous

sincerly

a.-k.

Yeah, I think it took him seven years to do it! Crazy stuff.

Regarding blurriness I remember one guy mentioned on Cave-stg that he felt the 360 ver was slightly blurry after the patch (which is odd). Personally I never notice it as blurry, but then I'm playing through RGB scart on an arcade cab (CRT). Perhaps adjust some of your 360's settings?

[moozooh]

Indeed, depending on your connection the degree of blurring is different. HDMI is the most crisp, VGA/D-Sub (standard analog PC monitor interface) is the best out of analog types; however, the cable itself must be good (mine has a bit of ghosting which is noticeable in the menus but negligible in actual games), and TVs/monitors also make a difference. I don't remember if the patched version has smoothing option among its visual settings, but if it does it should be turned off.

Also, ships in White Label have different hitbox sizes, of which A-type's is smaller IIRC; in BL they are both equally small.

Tips on survival:

1. If you're playing B-Shotia and are aiming for a clear, you must destroy small and medium-sized enemies before they cover the screen with bullets — this is crucial for survival in... well, everywhere in the game actually. I prefer using autofire at point-blank, it's crazy powerful with this ship type. So powerful that popcorn enemies often don't have the time to shoot anything, so there can be large stretches of time with literally nothing to dodge.

2. Only use laser on large enemies that can't be point-blanked, and bosses; destroy the rest with autofire at close range. When you're point-blanking, you don't have much time to react to attacks, but since the vast majority of them are aimed (learn how enemies shoot!), just move horizontally when in front of the enemy to preemptively misguide whatever it may shoot.

3. Make use of the easy four-digit chain at the end of stage 2 to ensure getting both score extends. An additional life is worth much more than temporary rank increase from a single 4- or 5-item hyper. Just stock up on hypers you receive until that point (learning the stage 1 boss trick helps a lot), you should be able to get all five by stage 2 midboss with little trouble, and unleash it when the first mid-size enemy enters the screen, or somewhere around that point. Stay in the lower half of the screen to avoid killing enemies too quickly. Learn all bee locations for stage 2 to capitalize on the score bonus. Getting both bees at the end is tricky, so you should just learn how to get one of them.

4. When hypering, keep your finger on the bomb button: bullets speed up in this mode, so you're more vulnerable. If in doubt, bomb: Shotia's large stock allows for generous expenditure.

5. In addition to the above, bombing decreases rank, so don't be shy to bomb if things get too hectic in general.

6. Learn bosses. Most of their attacks aren't hard at all if you don't move like mad. Some are solved by tap-dodging, some by scrolling part of the boss off-screen (stage 4), some by releasing the laser, etc.. Don't concentrate on bullets, instead look for openings and align yourself accordingly.

When not played for score, this game isn't really hard to 1-ALL — not significantly harder than its predecessor, DDP (I have first-hand experience with both). If you have any prior experience with shmups, 20-30 hours of thoughtful playing should do the trick.

(Btw, does your nickname come from a famed MtG card?)

[StarCreator]

Indeed, depending on your connection the degree of blurring is different. HDMI is the most crisp, VGA/D-Sub (standard analog PC monitor interface) is the best out of analog types; however, the cable itself must be good (mine has a bit of ghosting which is noticeable in the menus but negligible in actual games), and TVs/monitors also make a difference. I don't remember if the patched version has smoothing option among its visual settings, but if it does it should be turned off.

I hope you mean the cable matters on VGA only - on HDMI the cable "quality" doesn't make a difference as long as it's to specifications (you'll either get a signal or you won't).

The patch removed the smoothing option, which from what I can tell was an additional filter layered on top of the necessary resize (since the game's assets don't use a 1:1 pixel aspect, like all PGM games). There is still some residual blurriness as a result of the resize algorithm itself. You can minimize the problem by setting the screen scaling to a size that is dot by dot proportional to the game's horizontal resolution (around 94% IIRC).

[moozooh]

I hope you mean the cable matters on VGA only - on HDMI the cable "quality" doesn't make a difference as long as it's to specifications (you'll either get a signal or you won't).

Indeed I meant VGA, but surprisingly HDMI cables also differ in quality on long distances (5+ meters) as the required throughput is not guaranteed.

[ncp]

3: Old is White Label (same as your PS2 ver) New arcade is Black Label, which is more 1cc friendly because hypers rain quicker (worth noting life extends are further apart though) and iirc some hitboxes on bullets are a touch smaller.

hitbox sizes were swapped in black label

in doj, a-type has a smaller hitbox, in dojbl, b-type has a smaller hitbox.

edit: fixed.

[moozooh]

In BL, both have small hitbox.

[ncp]

http://shmups.system11.org/viewtopic.ph ... 93#p313493

[moozooh]

There's also this: http://shmups.system11.org/viewtopic.ph ... 41#p444541
Point is, both ships have sprites with an odd amount of pixels in width. A 4 pixel wide hitbox will inevitably be off-center, which is what happened to type B in DOJ WL. I'm pretty certain both of them are centered in BL, but I guess we need a confirmation from a more reliable source.

[Skykid]

Thanks for the hitbox clarification guys, that's good to know. I never play Type B on BL ever, but I might give it a shot knowing this.

[ncp]

There's also this: http://shmups.system11.org/viewtopic.ph ... 41#p444541
Point is, both ships have sprites with an odd amount of pixels in width. A 4 pixel wide hitbox will inevitably be off-center, which is what happened to type B in DOJ WL. I'm pretty certain both of them are centered in BL, but I guess we need a confirmation from a more reliable source.

Hmm, I never saw those posts!

When I was doing DOJ, I switched to B-type for a short period and never noticed a difference myself, so I wouldn't doubt that. I just figured I wasn't noticing a 1-pixel difference anyway, which I probably wouldn't even if it is true. I think, after reading that thread, I'd be much more inclined to agree with you.

One thing I'll disagree with from that thread, though, is jpj saying black label isn't dramatically easier, haha. I've only played like 3 credits of black label in my life and I beat my white label score by almost 50 million, felt like the game was just throwing hypers at me

[Skykid]

There's also this: http://shmups.system11.org/viewtopic.ph ... 41#p444541
Point is, both ships have sprites with an odd amount of pixels in width. A 4 pixel wide hitbox will inevitably be off-center, which is what happened to type B in DOJ WL. I'm pretty certain both of them are centered in BL, but I guess we need a confirmation from a more reliable source.

Hmm, I never saw those posts!

When I was doing DOJ, I switched to B-type for a short period and never noticed a difference myself, so I wouldn't doubt that. I just figured I wasn't noticing a 1-pixel difference anyway, which I probably wouldn't even if it is true. I think, after reading that, I'd be much more inclined to agree with you.

One thing I'll disagree with from that thread, though, is jpj saying black label isn't dramatically easier, haha. I've only played like 3 credits of black label in my life and I beat my white label score by almost 50 million, felt like the game was just throwing hypers at me

Lol, I reckon even 1 pixel in DOJ could make a difference!

I wouldn't say BL is dramatically easier, it's just much fairer. The combo gauge works properly and spills hypers much more readily, making bridging combos and getting through tough spots a much more reasonable task. But the distance between life extends requires the player to do more in the scoring dept. than in WL.

[moozooh]

But the distance between life extends requires the player to do more in the scoring dept. than in WL.

Well, more of... the same token effort of getting five hypers for a 1300–1400 hit chain in the stage 2 pop-corn-idor™, really. That's pretty much all it takes to get both extends before Hibachi, as you're going to hit 50+ million before stage 5 without pulling any other 300+ hit chain. Here's a proof (use ShmupMAME 2.2) of that, and also a conclusive proof that B-S destroys the first loop. In that replay I miss the secret 1-up, 3/4 of my deaths are with 2+ bombs in stock, Hibachi gets more bombs in its face than it really needs... you get the point. This is easier than Progear that I know you've cleared.

[chempop]

I think sticking with Type-B Shot is probably a good idea if you are going for the 1CC, it's the only ship I can clear the first loop with. Make sure Wait Control is ON for the much needed slowdown, took me a year to figure that one out

[Aliquantic]

If you feel like you aren't making much progress with your current ship selection, it's always a good idea to try something completely different and see if it clicks better... in this case, the Expert types (especially A) are extremely good if you know the layout of the stages and like to fly aggressively, so it could be worth a try, especially if you're having trouble using your bombs well. If nothing else, it'll challenge you and see the stages under a different light

And moozooh said it but it has to be repeated: autofire is king in this game, and make sure you have enabled the separate autofire button and use it a lot, especially on the later stages!

[Skykid]

This is easier than Progear that I know you've cleared.

Ha ha, well I gave Progear a lot more time believe it or not. It was one of the only PCB's I owned and one of the first, I played it relentlessly (my first Cave 1cc in fact.)

My highest BL score (unsubmitted) is 91,692,680 - that was stg 5 Hibachi and I did it a while back now. However I've never used anyone except Type A Exy, so if you guys think Shotia B is an easier clear I'll give her a go when I get the chance.

[moozooh]

If you don't need many bombs to clear the game (I know I don't, I just like dying stupidly), B-E is better than B-S on every count. It has both way better chaining capabilities and boss killing power, and when you die you only need one power-up to fully recover.

[Skykid]

If you don't need many bombs to clear the game (I know I don't, I just like dying stupidly), B-E is better than B-S on every count. It has both way better chaining capabilities and boss killing power, and when you die you only need one power-up to fully recover.

Sounds very interesting, I didn't know that. I rarely use bombs (hardly ever - my downfall) which is why Exy suits me. I'll give B type a go sometime in the near future. I intend to tackle Hibachi once and for all.

[ancestral-knowledge]

Again,
thank you all for the valuable input on this thread.

I'll just go into some points.

Technical things:
My PS2 is connected via a very cheap 5$-SCART-connector to a modern LCD-TV (1080p). In the screen options i have YOKO and the mode is YOKO (whatever that means). The XBOX360 is connected via HDMI. I think the designers just wanted to be the game like that (blurry). Maybe it has nothing to do with the technical setup because other 2D titles on the PS2 are crisp tough pixelated hence the lower resolution on a LCD.

Strategy:
From what moozooh said i think it's the best for me to learn some chaining on stage 1 and 2 to get some points and store hypers just for stage 2 after the midboss. This makes sure i can get both extends in order to get further in the game. And i think i have to stop lasering too much. I considered the tip from moozooh to just spam autofire on the upper half of the screen and it works very well. Too bad i can't look at the replay because i don't know what (shmup)MAME is.

I'm doing very good with the first boss and third boss but the second just seems totally random to me. I sometimes loose up to 2 lives on that boss when i try to dodge these blue little sticks that cross each other... just madness... i think the 3rd boss is easier.

I tried other ships out too, but i think the large bomb stock is what i important for me. With TYPE A or B-Exy i feel like chaining is significantly easier for me but when i die with type A in stage 3 i'm screwed since my shot is at lvl 1 from then on. I think SHOTIA is a good choice. I bomb like 3-5 times then die and then still preserve a pretty strong shot which recovers to full after the next powerup. This works better for me since my memorization of the stages is awful at the moment.

Oh and the size of hitbox won't matter i think. At my current skill level this just makes no difference. Nice to know though (I always wonder how people find that out).

Make sure Wait Control is ON

Will do that today.

Random:

(Btw, does your nickname come from a famed MtG card?)

Yeah i thought this nick was pretty cool. It comes from a shitty MtG Card. I was playing the card game on tournaments back then.

I always write my posts at work since I'm in the IT-business. Programming just goes easy for me and when i finished my goal for a day i just surf youtube or browse crap. This can be up to 4 hours a day .

a.-k.

[BPzeBanshee]

Sorry for the lack of source information on this one, but I believe I remember hearing something about most of the PS2 ports of Cave games being more blurry due to some kind of filtering at render that made things worse. Somebody do correct me if I'm wrong on this one.

"Yoko" is basically default orientation. The other settings will rotate the game screen by some amount and possibly even change the orientation of your own controls if you're not careful (like ESPGaluda for the PS2). Generally rotating your TV to its side and then using one of the said "TATE" rotation modes may or may not improve the picture quality.

As to what Shmupmame is, see here to download it - http://shmupmame.wordpress.com/
It's a derivative of MAME which is an emulator for arcade machines, so you can play arcade games on your PC. Don't ask for ROM images here, it's against the forum rules, enjoy the games and ask questions via PM (you can PM me or possibly Nimitz the developer for it) or in the appropriate thread (which is no longer on the front page at time of writing but the search function or even Google should reveal it easily enough).

My experience with DOJ is somewhat limited in terms of specifics, but hopefully that terminology stuff helps. I personally use the green ship in Black Label with the third doll that boosts both shot and laser due to lack of difference betweeen speeds when firing, though in all fairness I don't get very far with it so it's probably a bad combination.

[moozooh]

Sorry for the lack of source information on this one, but I believe I remember hearing something about most of the PS2 ports of Cave games being more blurry due to some kind of filtering at render that made things worse. Somebody do correct me if I'm wrong on this one.

There are two ports made by Cave themselves: Mushihimesama and Ibara. They are a blurry mess. Then there are two ports made by Arika: Espgaluda and DOJ. They are some of the best shmup ports ever because Arika's chief Mihara is a perfectionist and an arcade purist at heart. In tate mode they output pure 240p and look amazing.

There are several screen modes in Arika ports, IIRC among them is "yoko anti" which is a horizontal mode with reduced flickering. Try that and see if it's better.

The XBOX360 is connected via HDMI. I think the designers just wanted to be the game like that (blurry).

Are you connected to XBL? Have you downloaded the patch for this game?

Too bad i can't look at the replay because i don't know what (shmup)MAME is.

Go to the site linked by BPzeBanshee, then download ShmupMAME v2.2. Find "ddp3.zip" and "ddp3blk.zip" ROMs somewhere and put them into ROM folder without unzipping. Then download the archive I linked to and put the .inp in the "inp" folder, and the .nv in "nvram" folder. You're now set up. Run ShmupMAME, select DOJ BL, go File -> Playback input and select my replay in the inp folder. You are now watching my replay. Take notes on what's happening (boss strategies, bomb usage, tough spots, etc.). Second boss in particular is pretty easy if you do a quick first form kill seen in my replay. Then it's a matter of one bomb or some dodging, whichever you prefer.

With TYPE A or B-Exy i feel like chaining is significantly easier for me but when i die with type A in stage 3 i'm screwed since my shot is at lvl 1 from then on.

This shouldn't happen with Exy. Or did you mean that was with A-S? Don't use that ship, it's stupid.

[ancestral-knowledge]

okay i dloaded the Shmupmame v2.2 (mame140 based) and dodonpachi roms (ddp3.zip and ddp3blk.zip) but nothing works. the game itself istn even listed in the "all games section" when i open mame 32 plus! 0.99 so there is that.

i dloaded the 3.0b version which works fine except the raplay is totally broken. just weird sounds and 2 ships (1 player + 2 player) constantly dying.

i have the feeling i am missing some files.... hmm.. i noticed shmup ver 3.0b had much more files in the nvram folder.... but copying these in the old 2.2 version just wont work..

[moozooh]

Nah, there's a different problem involved. Apparently the link on Nimitz's site that claims to contain a v2.2 download somehow leads to a version based on MAME 0.99, which is most likely early v3.0. I'll inform him about it, in the meantime I've put a temporary solution here. It's the correct emulator version with everything already included and set up, sans the ROM files. I've made sure the replay works and syncs to the end.

[ancestral-knowledge]

Everything works perfectly now!

Thank you very much!
You saved my boring day at work!

a.-k.

[astroid]

I have a question. Found this arcade in Moscow centre. WHAT version of DDP DOJ is this I didnt see before (c)2010 and extended logo on the bottom of the screen...

[mesh control]

Woah, I assume it's the PGM cart version?

[Despatche]

a bit odd to bump this particular thread, but eh.

that should be dodonpachi daioujou tamashi. iirc it's just a rerelease, same hardware and everything. heard they were going to do one for ketsui, too.

edit: oh right it's supposed to be pgm->pgm2 this time