Why/How did the XBox 360 become the console for STGs?

[DJ Incompetent]

It didnt quite go as planned for Cave though. Same goes for XBLA which Cave was originally planning on releasing their shmups on. Unfortunatly MS at the time went though a change of management and make a U turn on their policy regarding Arcade ports forcing Cave to release Ketsui, DOJ BL and DS1 on disk. MS like big corps usually are cycle their execs and have since made another U-turn in their plans for XBLA / GOD and this is how things are atm.

I think you're confusing 5pb and Cave a bit - I recall reading 5pb originally had XBLA hopes for DOJBL and Ketsui, but I don't know if Cave themselves ever really gave XBLA as much consideration.

Yeah, that's right, it was definitely 5pb who wanted to port Cave's back catalogue to XBLA, not Cave. This was around the time when 5pb originally acquired the rights to port DOJ and Ketsui. I remember them saying they wanted to port more titles (via XBLA) if the first 2 sold well.

(Big IIRC) This story is pretty accurate. The inviting push for STGs on 360 XBLA in the beginning was done by a guy named Ross Ericson. After he left about the time Triggerheart was put on there, the guy who replaced him was hating on STGs (probably because Triggerheart, Omega Five, and others weren't actually commercial successes) and was refusing arcade ports to a service called Live Arcade, but the third guy we have now is working with Cave and I think is responsible for whatever happened the past 2.5 years or so.

Basically, what you need to know is whoever is in charge of the Worldwide Games Portfolio Manager position at Microsoft, controls what will be released on download. If you're not happy with something, that guy is who needs to be influenced.

But like I said, big IIRC.

[Special World]

I'm not really surprised that Sony would be picky about which genres are allowed on the PS3, since all I can ever find for the damned thing is big budget adventure titles :\

[bcass]

(Big IIRC) This story is pretty accurate. The inviting push for STGs on 360 XBLA in the beginning was done by a guy named Ross Ericson. After he left about the time Triggerheart was put on there, the guy who replaced him was hating on STGs (probably because Triggerheart, Omega Five, and others weren't actually commercial successes) and was refusing arcade ports to a service called Live Arcade, but the third guy we have now is working with Cave and I think is responsible for whatever happened the past 2.5 years or so.

Yeah, that's pretty much what I remember too. I remember that we (on this forum) found out who was responsible for directing XBLA around that time (the guy who had publically stated that they wanted to reduce the emphasis on arcade ports) and we all emailed him about it. Nobody got a response though, from what I remember.

It's something I'll never forgive Microsoft for. It was a big setback for the genre IMO. Significant (worldwide) numbers of sales lost for each release because of some arbitrary decision made by some "suit".

[eebrozgi]

Seems like to me that nobody has mentioned Wii yet. So, it was probably left behind X360 because of it's lacking power and casual image?
Well, it has Sin & Punishment: SotS at least. That game just demands Wii's controls, though.

[bcass]

I don't think power has anything to do with it. Apart from HD graphics, there's nothing Cave has done on the 360 that the Wii couldn't do IMO. Depending on the quality of the software libraries, it might even have been a better choice. From a shmup player's perspective, the Wii's online system is pretty dire compared to Live. I'm not talking about on-line co-op, I'm talking about how seamlessly things like Leaderboards are implemented on Live compared to how poorly similar functionality is implmented on the Wii. The 360 also had a year head start on the Wii too.

[Nazgulpasta]

arika want porting ketsui to ps3[(ps2 spec not satisfied. especialy stage 5's hellgate drop can't emulate perfect, it could freezing old ps2) (and arika wants new practice mode)]. but sony denied. reason was 'that game is not ps3 quality'.(mihara was posted that. he deleted it )

maybe that was the trigger.

[bcass]

Interesting. I wasn't aware of that. It doesn't surprise me though. So it's thanks to Sony we that had to wait so long for Ketsui port, this gen.

[MathU]

I'm talking about how seamlessly things like Leaderboards are implemented on Live compared to how poorly similar functionality is implmented on the Wii.

Gradius Rebirth does it just fine. Why couldn't others?

[bcass]

It's still not as seamless as Live. You still have to manually connect to the server to retrive/upload scores. Plus, more often than not, the filters are rubbish and there are rarely (if ever) options to upload/download replays. Oh, and you can't automatically compare score with friends. Live is lightyears ahead in terms of seamless integration.

[Ex-Cyber]

I don't think power has anything to do with it. Apart from HD graphics, there's nothing Cave has done on the 360 that the Wii couldn't do IMO.

Wii doesn't have much RAM. It's about the same amount as a CV1000 board (if you include sample ROMs in the CV1000's total, which I think is reasonable here) or about 1/6th the amount of RAM in PS3 and 360. So porting a CV1000 game to Wii should be feasible, but I can see how it might be less hassle to port it to 360 where there's some extra headroom. DS2, on the other hand, might not fit.

[bcass]

You could probably get round that without too much trouble with level loads or even some sort of streamloading.

[StarCreator]

If the console could run Muramasa, I'm pretty sure it could run anything Cave could think to throw at it.

[MathU]

If the console can run Castle of Shikigami III and every Milestone game fine, I'm pretty sure it can run anything CAVE could think to throw at it.

[Cuilan]

The sales ratio of Shiki 3 between the 360 and Wii probably contributed to it; it sold far more on the 360, if I remember correctly. And then there was the free 360 dev kits MS gave out to Japanese devs, plus the cheap licensing deals.

[Last_Dancer]

Sony hates 2D, LOL, thats not true, PS1 and PS2 got some of the best 2D-Games ever created, many Ports of old 16-Bit Games, Compilations of Classic Games etc.

Sony itself made countless 2D-Games, including Tombi, or the Arc the Lad Serie.

Sony hates 2D is not true, just like the rumor from lazy developers "Sony doesn't allow 240p mode", yet Sonys Shadow of the Colossus runs in native 240p

Sony wants 16:9, so what, a optional 4:3 mode is always possible.

Why/How did the XBox 360 become the console for STGs?

Simple answer, because Microsoft paid for it, thats the only reason, just like they did with Mistwalker, Square, tri-ace and Namco etc.
Its too late now, CAVE is now stuck on the 360

You can say what you want about Microsoft, but they deserve lots of credits for this stuff. They gained a ton of respect from me this console generation.

Credits because of moneyhatting? LOL, never, moneyhatting is always bad, for the consumer and the developer,the last time Nintendo did moneyhatting, the Resident Evil Dude got fired because Resident Evil 4 did poorly on the Gamecube

[iconoclast]

Mikami did not get fired because of RE4's sales on the GC. He went on to make God Hand, and then he left Capcom after they dissolved Clover.

just FYI

[Special World]

Sony hates 2D, LOL, thats not true, PS1 and PS2 got some of the best 2D-Games ever created, many Ports of old 16-Bit Games, Compilations of Classic Games etc.

Sony itself made countless 2D-Games, including Tombi, or the Arc the Lad Serie.

Actually, Sony did hate 2D, at least in the PS1 days. They had to be convinced to allow Castlevania: Symphony of the Night on PS1.

Also, Tomba uses 3D graphics. And according to people in this very topic, Arc the Lad was a struggle as well.

[Naryoril]

Sony hates 2D, LOL, thats not true, PS1 and PS2 got some of the best 2D-Games ever created, many Ports of old 16-Bit Games, Compilations of Classic Games etc.

Sony itself made countless 2D-Games, including Tombi, or the Arc the Lad Serie.

Sony hates 2D is not true, just like the rumor from lazy developers "Sony doesn't allow 240p mode", yet Sonys Shadow of the Colossus runs in native 240p

Sony wants 16:9, so what, a optional 4:3 mode is always possible.

I'm not familiar with Sony exclusives: but how many of the games you listed here are on the PS3? We are talking about the current generation.

And considering vertical shooters (which the majority nowadays are), we don't have an aspect ratio of 4:3, but 3:4 (portrait mode, not landscape). Going from 3:4 to 16:9 is stretching the game horizontally with a factor of 2.25 which is WAY too much to be reasonable by just stretching it. I don't think there is a reasonable method to change a 3:4 vertical shooter into a 16:9 vertical shooter. If you know a good method to make a good version of for example Mushihimesama Futari played in 16:9 landscape mode, so please tell me. Generally a 16:9 vertical shooter wouldn't make too much sense, even if you built it from scratch (though it might work if you put a lot of thought into it)

haters gonna hate. Or rather fanboys gonna flame everyone else.

[Obiwanshinobi]

Actually, Sony did hate 2D, at least in the PS1 days.

Sony released this and that themselves. That's more than can be said in Nintendo's defense. Capcom kept pumping out 2D Mega Man games like crazy, beginning with Rockman X3. Konami released Suikoden as soon as 1995 (way before SotN and Gradius Gaiden). That's how such prominent companies' support for the PSX looked like and Sony must've approved it. Heck, wasn't The Raiden Project a US launch title?

[Ex-Cyber]

Heck, wasn't The Raiden Project a US launch title?

I thought it was a few months after launch, but every place with a plausible release date says it was a launch title.

[TrevHead (TVR)]

Ive always imagined it to be that Sony and the other Japanese Hardware companies have always been more accepting of 2D games in Japan (I dunno why, maybe its the culture or that Capcom, Konami and the other Japanese devs have stronger ties with the hardware companies and have more clout) The problem is the western side especially the US side of things considering Europe tends to play second fiddle.

So its the western corp execs who get to cherry pick which Japanese games they think are worth localising and rather than making their decisions based solely on the merits of each game and instead of how they think it fits in with the overal marketting concept of the console. I know this is an obvious observeration to mention but it is a serious factor in what games are available to us as gamers. Its always been the same hasnt it even before Sony came along.

As for this generation I think that it isnt just a western problem but now a Japanese problem aswell. My guess is with the focus of the industry moving westward, Japanese devs and publishers no longer have Sony's and Nintys ear, instead its western publishers and their own US / EU divisions. What I find almost ironic is that MS an US corp and one of the most soulless ones at that are giving Japanese niche devs support while their kin give them the hard shoulder due to thie niche-ness. Maybe im talking bollocks and looking at it from an odd perpective but I find it hilarious

[Obiwanshinobi]

Apparently the best selling PlayStation game of all time in the UK was the original Rayman. Sometimes reality has its way with people's expectations and beliefs just like that.

[TrevHead (TVR)]

Apparently the best selling PlayStation game of all time in the UK was the original Rayman.

Maybe so but I doubt SCEE expected it to be such a big hit when they gave the publishers the green light.

[Elixir]

If the console can run Castle of Shikigami III and every Milestone game fine, I'm pretty sure it can run anything CAVE could think to throw at it.

Well.....

Famitsu 360: So it seems easy to port arcade games to the XBOX 360.

Maruyama (G.rev): For us, porting to PC just takes a few days. Porting to the XBOX 360 takes about a month. If it was a 2D shooting game, it would be more difficult.

Asada (Cave): For us, when we ported Mushihimesama Futari, Horii-san from M2 created tools for us to port the game. Once our programmers saw these newly-created tools, they were ecstatic. They were eager to make the port of the game.

Horii (M2): Cave worked very hard on this game!

Asada (Cave): We want you to see what we have done with your tools

Horii (M2): Then you are welcome to come visit us anytime! [Laughs]

Asada (Cave): The tools were really great. In the original version of Deathsmiles, there were a lot of bullets on the screen. Normally we wouldn’t be able to handle that on the XBOX 360, but because of Horii-san’s tools, we didn’t have to omit anything. This made the programmers kind of cocky because they were able to do a lot of things beyond their talents. I thought it would be to the point where they would say “Yeah, yeah, whatever, when we have time then we’ll work on Deathsmiles II X” [Laughs]. But really, the programmers worked hard with the research and such and their efforts were worth it. With the new business tools in place, it was easy to make these games. It can be done in just 2 or 3 days. So our next step is to work on games for PS3, which take a lot of time.

It seems like M2 kept the flow, so to speak.

[adversity1]

[Barrakketh]

It seems like M2 kept the flow, so to speak.

It sounds like bullshit. It's programming, not black magic. If Asada said that they weren't willing to put in the effort to optimize their code for the 360's hardware and Horii's tools let them be lazy instead of gimping the game, I could buy that.

Hell, the tools are something also written by a human to aid porting the game. Whatever they actually do to make porting the game easier was implemented by Horii, and Cave's developers should be capable of implementing their own solution once they understood the problem. Of course, if they would have had to do the same thing for each game (presumably due to the hardware design chosen for Cave's PCBs) then automating most of the work is the smart thing to do.

I still don't like Asada's reasoning.

[TreasureFanMax]

Sony's did really push 3D for the playstation 1 and i guess thats when shmups started to decline a little. the xbox360 architecture is so similar to a pc though, I'd venture a guess that developing for it is just a lot easier.

[elvis]

Microsoft have always struggled to gain acceptance in Japan, and when the 360 was released made it company policy to embrace any Japanese developer with open arms just to get some folks on side.

Sony's usual arrogance and corporate boneheadedness put most people off side quickly with the PS3. Add to that Microsoft overall acceptance of small and independent developers, and it's easy to see why they've won hearts in small Japanese dev studios.

All of these "Xbox was easier to develop for" stories are nonsense. The reasons are entirely political. Early on, Microsoft treated small third party devs right, and Sony didn't. Now the Xbox360 has critical mass as a platform for shooters, which makes it even harder for developers to try different platforms when they know what hardware their target market are most likely buying.

I generally loathe Microsoft's corporate behaviour in any given market, but when it comes to consumer consoles, I think they're doing it right.

[JOW]

It seems like M2 kept the flow, so to speak.

It sounds like bullshit. It's programming, not black magic. If Asada said that they weren't willing to put in the effort to optimize their code for the 360's hardware and Horii's tools let them be lazy instead of gimping the game, I could buy that.

Not at all. Porting (and similarly emulation) require very specific skills that CAVE's developers probably aren't experts in. M2 meanwhile obviously have an incredible amount of expertise in this field as proven by their awesome track record.

As you say it's not Black Magic but to a lot of Software Professionals this type of work does appear that way - it's not taught in any University and is a kind of 'Craft' that is passed on or learnt after years of hacking.

I've read that interview before (and others) and I took the interpretation that M2's tools made the job of porting these games very, very easy and therefore possible from a commercial point of view. I'm sure CAVE's programmers would have been capable but the length of time required to provide their own solution would probably not be commercially viable.

[Ex-Cyber]

Whatever they actually do to make porting the game easier was implemented by Horii, and Cave's developers should be capable of implementing their own solution once they understood the problem.

Sometimes, you can't really understand a problem until you've cranked out several crappy solutions.