Why/How did the XBox 360 become the console for STGs?

[Naryoril]

The question came up in some other forum. Someone was wondering that there are hardly any STGs available on the PS3

I don't own a PS3, so i don't really care, but now i'm curious. Why became the XBox 360 of all consoles the one for japanese STGs? It's incredibly unsuccessful in Japan, so it's really strange those very japanesque games are so heavily and largely exclusively represented on the XBox 360? Does anyone have an idea?

[Barrakketh]

It was probably the easiest for Cave (and other developers) to port to.

[BLU]

Sony was a dick

[DJ Incompetent]

G.Rev & Moss did it first because 360 had best network functionality (leaderboards). Everybody else followed. It was a domino effect from there.
http://www.cave-stg.com/forum/index.php?topic=917.0

[brentsg]

Path of least resistance...

[DragonInstall]

From what I heard from this site is..

1. Sony were dicks to sprite based games like CAVE
2. It was easier to port from arcade to 360
3. Online support was better for the 360
4. It's also cheaper to port to the 360
5. Microsoft basically opened their arms to the genre

These are always common things mentioned in these type of topics.

From there on.. it was just a domino effect for other shooters, and most people who are fans of shooters got the 360 just for them. Ps3 then became pretty obsolete for the genre and sales have proven that.

[Lordstar]

From what I heard from this site is..
1. Sony were dicks to sprite based games like CAVE

I heard the same being said about 360 for a long time. these consoles have been around 5-6 years its only the past 18month where things have really taken off for sprite based games.

[TrevHead (TVR)]

I hear (home console) Visual Novels are quite similar with most of them been on the 360 and the PS3 having only an handfull.

The reason STGs and VNs are on the 360 rather then the PS3 has to do with:-

1) Sony been snobbish about 2D games / 4:3 or 3:4 resolution. Ive heard rumours that they actually told shmup devs / pubs to go away and make real games
2) Devs due to how niche these genres are prefer to stick to 1 console which keeps its fanbase together, rather then fragmenting an already very small customer base onto various consoles.
3) Cheaper costs on the 360, helped by MS who is (usually) very supportive of its niche devs in Japan. I would hazard a guess that it is one of the 360 biggest selling points over in Japan.
4) Regoin Locking is a good thing for attracting western publishers. It didnt quite go as planned for Cave though. Same goes for XBLA which Cave was originally planning on releasing their shmups on. Unfortunatly MS at the time went though a change of management and make a U turn on their policy regarding Arcade ports forcing Cave to release Ketsui, DOJ BL and DS1 on disk. MS like big corps usually are cycle their execs and have since made another U-turn in their plans for XBLA / GOD and this is how things are atm.

I heard the same being said about 360 for a long time. these consoles have been around 5-6 years its only the past 18month where things have really taken off for sprite based games.

You are probably right, its been a problem since the PS1 era, although ild say that Sony are the worst in this regard. Still it would be nice for the western gaming industry and the gamers themselves to totally get past this notion that 2D games should be relegated to smaller indie games on XBLA / PSN.

[Never_Scurred]

You are probably right, its been a problem since the PS1 era, although ild say that Sony are the worst in this regard. Still it would be nice for the western gaming industry and the gamers themselves to totally get past this notion that 2D games should be relegated to smaller indie games on XBLA / PSN.

Amen, brother.

[Obiwanshinobi]

One of early PSX releases was the Parodius compilation. One of early PS2 releases was Gradius III&IV. I'd say Sony was at worst indifferent towards sprites during the PSX era, if I didn't know about Sony's own Hermie Hopperhead being a mostly sprite-based 2D platformer. How can anybody say Sony was the worst in this regard, knowing what Nintendo did (not do) for 2D and sprites on the N64? They deigned to release Mischief Makers overseas (Enix was the Japanese publisher) and that's it. Well, I guess Killer Instinct 2 was about as 2D as Mischief Makers, but it's not saying much. The only purely sprite-based game for N64 I know about is Bangai-O and Nintendo had nothing to do with its development and publishing.
Which is not to say Nintendo had a beef with sprites as such. Rather all their steam early on went into development of polygonal games and they didn't have much left when things turned out gloomy.

[Never_Scurred]

I would like to know the official source of the "SCEA doesn't like 2D, Go away 2D" rumors. Is there an article or whathaveyou from an Sony employee that stated this, or is it one of those great videogame urban myths that has somehow become accepted as truth?

[StarCreator]

It didnt quite go as planned for Cave though. Same goes for XBLA which Cave was originally planning on releasing their shmups on. Unfortunatly MS at the time went though a change of management and make a U turn on their policy regarding Arcade ports forcing Cave to release Ketsui, DOJ BL and DS1 on disk. MS like big corps usually are cycle their execs and have since made another U-turn in their plans for XBLA / GOD and this is how things are atm.

I think you're confusing 5pb and Cave a bit - I recall reading 5pb originally had XBLA hopes for DOJBL and Ketsui, but I don't know if Cave themselves ever really gave XBLA as much consideration.

[Kollision]

....forcing Cave to release Ketsui, DOJ BL and DS1 on disk.

Thank God!
May it continue forever and ever, to hell with digital stuff.

[DragonInstall]

Yeah I'm really not a fan of digital distribution, but if it's the only way to get a game out.. can't be helped.

[Ex-Cyber]

I would like to know the official source of the "SCEA doesn't like 2D, Go away 2D" rumors. Is there an article or whathaveyou from an Sony employee that stated this, or is it one of those great videogame urban myths that has somehow become accepted as truth?

I'm not sure that's the sort of thing that would be acknowledged directly by a Sony employee. My memory's fuzzy, but ISTR that the rumor came from Working Designs and was connected to a falling out between Victor Ireland and Bernie Stolar (which is consistent with WD initially publishing on Saturn and then switching to PS1 in 1997 when Stolar left SCEA to join SOA). Some sources have it that the policy wasn't "no 2D" but rather "no JRPGs", which would naturally get WD's goat.

Yeah I'm really not a fan of digital distribution, but if it's the only way to get a game out.. can't be helped.

I'm also not a fan of the term "digital distribution". A DOCSIS signal isn't any more digital than a ROM chip or a DVD. I'm not against Internet-based distribution at all, but I think it's awkward and ultimately anti-user to pair that with an attempt to enforce a pay-per-copy or pay-per-user business model (as, of course, every major "digital distribution platform" does).

[Never_Scurred]

I would like to know the official source of the "SCEA doesn't like 2D, Go away 2D" rumors. Is there an article or whathaveyou from an Sony employee that stated this, or is it one of those great videogame urban myths that has somehow become accepted as truth?

I'm not sure that's the sort of thing that would be acknowledged directly by a Sony employee. My memory's fuzzy, but ISTR that the rumor came from Working Designs and was connected to a falling out between Victor Ireland and Bernie Stolar (which is consistent with WD initially publishing on Saturn and then switching to PS1 in 1997 when Stolar left SCEA to join SOA). Some sources have it that the policy wasn't "no 2D" but rather "no JRPGs", which would naturally get WD's goat.


Didn't Working Designs do alot of the SegaCD JRPG's from back in the day? I recall lusting after those games when I happened upon their ads in GamePro.

[Nico87]

I would like to know the official source of the "SCEA doesn't like 2D, Go away 2D" rumors. Is there an article or whathaveyou from an Sony employee that stated this, or is it one of those great videogame urban myths that has somehow become accepted as truth?

I'm not sure that's the sort of thing that would be acknowledged directly by a Sony employee. My memory's fuzzy, but ISTR that the rumor came from Working Designs and was connected to a falling out between Victor Ireland and Bernie Stolar (which is consistent with WD initially publishing on Saturn and then switching to PS1 in 1997 when Stolar left SCEA to join SOA). Some sources have it that the policy wasn't "no 2D" but rather "no JRPGs", which would naturally get WD's goat.


Didn't Working Designs do alot of the SegaCD JRPG's from back in the day? I recall lusting after those games when I happened upon their ads in GamePro.

They did, though not "alot". Lunar, Lunar 2, Vay and Popful Mail. Anyway, that "no JRPGs policy" makes absolutely no sense as there have been and are shitloads of JRPGs for all their consoles, including the PSP.

I also think that MS made arcade stuff one of their sub-gimmicks with the XBLA Arcade thingy, big support for indy developers, and the Xbox 360 Arcade package.

[Ex-Cyber]

Anyway, that "no JRPGs policy" makes absolutely no sense as there have been and are shitloads of JRPGs for all their consoles, including the PSP.

The rumor is generally that the "policy", whatever it was, was put into place by Bernie Stolar at SCEA and went away when he did, which was early-mid 1997. Beyond the Beyond was released in the US in 1996, so there couldn't have been an absolute ban, but legend has it that Stolar personally rejected WD's attempt to bring over Arc the Lad.

[Special World]

I read an interview with a Treasure employee where he stated that Sega's decline left a hole where arcade games could go, and companies naturally flocked to the 360 because it had more of a hardcore edge.

Personally, I think that's spot on, as the PS3 only excels in high budget single player adventures, and such. I never really enjoyed my PS3 for anything besides the occasional puzzle game, for that reason. 360 has an emphasis on competition and arcade style. Perhaps I'd see it a little differently if shoot-em-up devs had moved to PS3 instead, but really, it seems like an ideal fit for them.

[Jeneki]

I remember first hearing the "no 2d" and "Americans don't want RPGs" rumors around the time of Arc the Lad and Gunner's Heaven. Both of those were very early releases in Japan, and generated a lot of questions when they didn't look like they were getting a North American release.

I remember it very clearly because it prompted me to make those the first two games I imported on PS1 (back when NCSX used to mod consoles to play imports). I always loved to say how Arc the Lad was one of the first PS1 game I imported, and one of the last PS1 games I bought domestically; they were that far apart.

[TrevHead (TVR)]

I just think its funny that this graphical snobbery the hardware manufacturers have been installing in their userbase has come back to bite them in the arse now that the production costs are too high. I hope the next gen of consoles wont be all gimicks like what Ninty are doing, and that 2D and B grade games are more prominent then they are atm.

[Never_Scurred]

I just think its funny that this graphical snobbery the hardware manufacturers have been installing in their userbase has come back to bite them in the arse now that the production costs are too high. I hope the next gen of consoles wont be all gimicks like what Ninty are doing, and that 2D and B grade games are more prominent then they are atm.

That is just the thing,
I never believed that the limits (or should I say true potential) of 2d sprite based graphics had been reached before we had ugly polygons shoved down our eye sockets.

[Ganelon]

Uh, SCEA's nonsensical QA toward niche games is already in question? What about Soul Hackers, Goemon, Shadow Tower Abyss, SVC Chaos, and Ys I-II Eternal Story? Do your due diligence and you should be able to find official publisher sources for Sony axing all of these games (or forcing them at uneconomical budget pricing). And these are just the ones that struck me the most; there are plenty more if you keep looking around.

[originalz]

Sony also forces devs to make games fullscreen, which kind of screws up games with fixed aspect ratios like shooters. It's why Mamoru-kun was a widescreen version, and why Raystorm was stretched-fullscreen (and the devs didn't want to fix it for the 360 version, idiotic). That'll be a pretty huge barrier for devs.

[Ex-Cyber]

I never believed that the limits (or should I say true potential) of 2d sprite based graphics had been reached before we had ugly polygons shoved down our eye sockets.

I don't see how it's even a matter of belief. Hand-drawn 2D can be pretty demanding if artists are allowed to just go to town and don't have to fit into a few megabytes of RAM or ROM. Memory costs had a major effect on what was economically and technically feasible for sprite-based games until fairly recently, and even now it's not very hard to find a PC that can't handle Braid's fill rate (for example).

[Naryoril]

thanks a lot guys
it makes sense that way

[Sumez]

From what I heard from this site is..
1. Sony were dicks to sprite based games like CAVE
2. It was easier to port from arcade to 360
3. Online support was better for the 360
4. It's also cheaper to port to the 360
5. Microsoft basically opened their arms to the genre

You can say what you want about Microsoft, but they deserve lots of credits for this stuff. They gained a ton of respect from me this console generation.

[Jeneki]

Why/How did the XBox 360 become the console for STGs?

This generation has been a bit frustrating in that regards. I finally get a full console (non-handheld) that has region-free games, and then every game I want to import gets released elsewhere. (I do buy a lot of domestic stuff for it though)

But in the long-term, the "why/how" isn't that important. I learned many years ago that begging for a game to get released on my console of choice doesn't work. So I find it less stressful to just buy where the shmups go, and move on with my life.

[bcass]

It didnt quite go as planned for Cave though. Same goes for XBLA which Cave was originally planning on releasing their shmups on. Unfortunatly MS at the time went though a change of management and make a U turn on their policy regarding Arcade ports forcing Cave to release Ketsui, DOJ BL and DS1 on disk. MS like big corps usually are cycle their execs and have since made another U-turn in their plans for XBLA / GOD and this is how things are atm.

I think you're confusing 5pb and Cave a bit - I recall reading 5pb originally had XBLA hopes for DOJBL and Ketsui, but I don't know if Cave themselves ever really gave XBLA as much consideration.

Yeah, that's right, it was definitely 5pb who wanted to port Cave's back catalogue to XBLA, not Cave. This was around the time when 5pb originally acquired the rights to port DOJ and Ketsui. I remember them saying they wanted to port more titles (via XBLA) if the first 2 sold well.

[neorichieb1971]

Sony were so worried certain genre's of games would tarnish the PS3 brand and reputation.

However, since the STG was pretty much banned from the PS3 catalog of distribution Sony has tarnished itself more than any game ever could.

The PS3 is my favourite console still (for one reason or another), but its plain to see its failings on a grand scale. The latest is that 3.61 makes older systems overheat and if the UK gets a hot summer thats a possible million machines going out of service. UK homes rarely have air con.