Ketsui is too brutal

Trevor spencer · Post by **Trevor spencer** » Tue May 03, 2011 5:35 pm

Udderdude wrote:It's called "Forcing the player to not be a pussy" >_>

lol

drunkninja24 · Post by **drunkninja24** » Tue May 03, 2011 5:54 pm

emphatic wrote:
drunkninja24 wrote:Oh damn, you got a PDF or something for this anywhere? I'd LOVE to have this in my cab
http://www.megaupload.com/?d=ZBNK641G

What type of cabinet do you have? If you have an EGRET II you might wanna leave the white surround + pink stripe (I think this is the version where I made a fake TAITO move sticker behind the artwork).

It's an Astro, I think this'll work though.

btw, how did you have the printout done to get it at the proper size?

emphatic · Post by **emphatic** » Tue May 03, 2011 6:43 pm

drunkninja24 wrote:
emphatic wrote:
drunkninja24 wrote:Oh damn, you got a PDF or something for this anywhere? I'd LOVE to have this in my cab
http://www.megaupload.com/?d=ZBNK641G

What type of cabinet do you have? If you have an EGRET II you might wanna leave the white surround + pink stripe (I think this is the version where I made a fake TAITO move sticker behind the artwork).
It's an Astro, I think this'll work though.

btw, how did you have the printout done to get it at the proper size?

I printed from Photoshop @ 100%. Your best shot is of course to check the height of the artwork as well as the glass that will cover it on your Astro and make sure that the artwork (~69 mm tall without the added white for the EGRET II, 80 with it) doesn't need any trimming to fit. I have no clue how big the Astro sticker glass is.

8 1/2 · Post by **8 1/2** » Tue May 03, 2011 7:31 pm

I will admit that Ketsui is a bit more memorization heavy than most Cave shmups, in that you simply won't survive until you break it down to rote movements. All shmups require some memorization, but you can sort of ad-lib quite a lot of Dodonpachi and still stay alive. Ketsui, especially the bosses, will stomp you out like an old menthol if you don't know what's coming. Cinderella Amber was my major stumbling block for many weeks until I really got it down dead perfect. Even DOJ's bosses aren't quite so intense. I still rank this as somewhere around maybe 5 or 6 on the list of hardest Cave games, but even so I hold my 1CC of the first loop very close to my heart as one of my most proud shmupping achievements. Keep at it and it will unfold for you.

drunkninja24 · Post by **drunkninja24** » Wed May 04, 2011 6:56 am

Btw, just finished uploading this to Youtube:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=blJ-6hVY ... C72743C1B6

Only a first loop clear, but considering the level of play, I think people having trouble can find some applicable strategies to take from this.

BPzeBanshee · Post by **BPzeBanshee** » Wed May 04, 2011 10:24 am

drunkninja24 wrote:Btw, just finished uploading this to Youtube:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=blJ-6hVY ... C72743C1B6

Only a first loop clear, but considering the level of play, I think people having trouble can find some applicable strategies to take from this.

A very valuable resource indeed. Thanks for uploading!

Am I to understand that Tiger Schwert is easier to use than Panzer Jaeger? If so that could certainly help in beating the game surely?

drunkninja24 · Post by **drunkninja24** » Wed May 04, 2011 3:21 pm

BPzeBanshee wrote:
drunkninja24 wrote:Btw, just finished uploading this to Youtube:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=blJ-6hVY ... C72743C1B6

Only a first loop clear, but considering the level of play, I think people having trouble can find some applicable strategies to take from this.
A very valuable resource indeed. Thanks for uploading!

Am I to understand that Tiger Schwert is easier to use than Panzer Jaeger? If so that could certainly help in beating the game surely?

It's easier for clearing wide waves of enemies more quickly due to the wide shot.

emphatic · Post by **emphatic** » Wed May 04, 2011 4:12 pm

drunkninja24 wrote:It's easier for clearing wide waves of enemies more quickly due to the wide shot.

Also, not as easy to crash into the odd, slow shots lingering all alone outside that cluster you just got out of due to speed change from LOCK SHOT to regular shot. And the LOCK SHOT engage is way quicker with Tiger Schwert.

Trevor spencer · Post by **Trevor spencer** » Wed May 04, 2011 4:53 pm

I find the Panzer easier

BPzeBanshee · Post by **BPzeBanshee** » Thu May 05, 2011 6:10 am

emphatic wrote:
drunkninja24 wrote:It's easier for clearing wide waves of enemies more quickly due to the wide shot.
Also, not as easy to crash into the odd, slow shots lingering all alone outside that cluster you just got out of due to speed change from LOCK SHOT to regular shot. And the LOCK SHOT engage is way quicker with Tiger Schwert.

It's almost like there's no point in having the Panzer Jaeger as a ship when the alternative does everything better. Thanks for the tip nonetheless!

NzzpNzzp · Post by **NzzpNzzp** » Thu May 05, 2011 7:00 am

Moving fast is pretty good. You shouldn't underestimate it.

8 1/2 · Post by **8 1/2** » Thu May 05, 2011 7:29 am

NzzpNzzp wrote:Moving fast is pretty good. You shouldn't underestimate it.

But there's not reason to go faster when all the patterns are balanced around the slower ship. Plus, it helps twitchy players like me avoid over, uh, twitching.

emphatic · Post by **emphatic** » Thu May 05, 2011 7:54 am

Flying fast is fun and can be an added challenge, but if I would play this in an arcade and pay for each credit, chances are I would only play as Tiger Schwert.

NzzpNzzp · Post by **NzzpNzzp** » Thu May 05, 2011 10:27 am

8 1/2 wrote:But there's not reason to go faster when all the patterns are balanced around the slower ship.

But it means you can dodge differently. Going around shots instead of going through them, that sorta thing. Getting closer to bad dudes/in position to intercept faster is helpful too. Being able to go fast is a bonus, just like being able to lock on to dudes faster is a bonus. Not necessary, but still nice.

Plus, it helps twitchy players like me avoid over, uh, twitching.

Well, optimum speed is kinda subjective, but I'm sure you can agree that for some people being that fast is good. It's not like it's a Dark Sword or anything crazy like that.

emphatic · Post by **emphatic** » Thu May 05, 2011 10:47 am

Also, the full auto of Panzer Jaeger is bitchin'. You can kill pretty much anything with that thing while zooming around the screen like shitleaves in a shitstorm. But what you REALLY need to do is watch out for are the shithawks, flying low, shitting on everyone.

Another thing is the placement of the helper ships. Let's continue this ping-pong match of what's ship is the best.

charlie chong · Post by **charlie chong** » Thu May 05, 2011 11:06 am

NzzpNzzp wrote:
But it means you can dodge differently. Going around shots instead of going through them, that sorta thing. Getting closer to bad dudes/in position to intercept faster is helpful too. Being able to go fast is a bonus, just like being able to lock on to dudes faster is a bonus. Not necessary, but still nice.

i find panzer jaeger particulary useful on the 4th level in dealing with those black stealth bomber planes that swoop in. just gives you more options to deal with them i.e you canjust mash em with the auto or dodge round them if it starts getting hairy.also i find panzer jager easier to adlib when you find yourself in a tight squeeze..it's speed often means you come out alive even tho you thought you were a goner.

it's weird tho traditionally in cave games i always use wide shot slow characters such as c-s in dodon and jb 5th in esperade but in ketsui i like the fast one

BeruBeru · Post by **BeruBeru** » Thu May 05, 2011 12:05 pm

Had a huge improvement, the moment I decided to get really "angry" at the enemy everything became somewhat easier.
I reached level 4 mid-boss on 1 credit so-far.

drunkninja24 · Post by **drunkninja24** » Fri May 06, 2011 9:58 pm

emphatic wrote: I printed from Photoshop @ 100%. Your best shot is of course to check the height of the artwork as well as the glass that will cover it on your Astro and make sure that the artwork (~69 mm tall without the added white for the EGRET II, 80 with it) doesn't need any trimming to fit. I have no clue how big the Astro sticker glass is.

Not sure on the glass, but I did measure the placeholder instruction sheet that was in there and it came out as such:

Width: 18 7/8" (479mm)
Height: 2 3/4" (70mm)

One thing I noticed was when I did a print preview in photoshop, it came out ridiculously large. Is there a certain dpi or something this needs to be at as well?

Jeneki · Post by **Jeneki** » Sat May 07, 2011 8:13 am

Also see this topic.

I don't feel like repeating myself here.

Cuilan · Post by **Cuilan** » Sat May 07, 2011 8:30 am

I kinda regret buying the port. I don't find it nearly as much fun to play as Mushi Futari or Deathsmiles. The arrange mode in the port is a big improvement over the original, but it's just not enough. If only I had known that it was going to get emulated so soon after the port's release, I would have been able to try-before-I-buy instead of blindly buying in to all the hype...

Paradigm · Post by **Paradigm** » Sat May 07, 2011 2:54 pm

Cuilan wrote:I kinda regret buying the port. I don't find it nearly as much fun to play as Mushi Futari or Deathsmiles. The arrange mode in the port is a big improvement over the original, but it's just not enough. If only I had known that it was going to get emulated so soon after the port's release, I would have been able to try-before-I-buy instead of blindly buying in to all the hype...

Pretty sure if it was filled with lolis and girly anime shit, it would be your favourite shooter.

ShmupSamurai · Post by **ShmupSamurai** » Sat May 07, 2011 8:43 pm

Cuilan wrote:
I kinda regret buying the port. I don't find it nearly as much fun to play as Mushi Futari or Deathsmiles. The arrange mode in the port is a big improvement over the original, but it's just not enough. If only I had known that it was going to get emulated so soon after the port's release, I would have been able to try-before-I-buy instead of blindly buying in to all the hype...

Pretty sure if it was filled with lolis and girly anime shit, it would be your favourite shooter.

Guess Ketsui isn't for every shmuper....

Point # 2- Everybody has their own tastes when it comes to games. If he likes his shmups with lolis and stuff, then that's just the way he likes em. Respect others opipions.Unless of course you were being sarcastic....

BPzeBanshee · Post by **BPzeBanshee** » Sun May 08, 2011 6:47 am

ShmupSamurai wrote:
Paradigm wrote:
Cuilan wrote:I kinda regret buying the port. I don't find it nearly as much fun to play as Mushi Futari or Deathsmiles. The arrange mode in the port is a big improvement over the original, but it's just not enough. If only I had known that it was going to get emulated so soon after the port's release, I would have been able to try-before-I-buy instead of blindly buying in to all the hype...

Pretty sure if it was filled with lolis and girly anime shit, it would be your favourite shooter.
Guess Ketsui isn't for every shmuper....

Point # 2- Everybody has their own tastes when it comes to games. If he likes his shmups with lolis and stuff, then that's just the way he likes em. Respect others opipions.Unless of course you were being sarcastic....

You bring up a good point there ShmupSamurai, though honestly having a taste for lolis is going to result in getting some flak for it somewhere no matter what.

I don't mean this personally or in a nasty way, but I do agree with Paradigm's view on this one. Correct me if I'm wrong Cuilan, but I don't recall militaristic-style shmups being your area of interest. Am I wrong?

captpain · Post by **captpain** » Sun May 08, 2011 6:57 am

ShmupSamurai wrote: If he likes his shmups with lolis and stuff, then that's just the way he likes em.

Still weird as hell.

8 1/2 · Post by **8 1/2** » Sun May 08, 2011 8:33 am

I initially thought Deathsmiles was a waste of time. It seemed overly simple, and too reliant on its theme to carry my interest. Yet, I kept at it, and eventually found it to be much deeper than my first impression. I would encourage the same with Ketsui. It's not an accident that so many players think it's a top tier game, and it smacks a bit of childish non-conformity to slam it without any real points being made. How about a compare/contrast between the arrange mode and the main game if the former is really so superior?

Udderdude · Post by **Udderdude** » Sun May 08, 2011 10:24 am

Ketsui arrange is much closer to newer cave games with one loop, lots of boolit cancelling and very dynamic rank (Play well and it goes directly to loop 2 patterns with revenge bullets, if I recall).

So if you like that kind of thing, of course the arrange will appeal to you more.

Cuilan · Post by **Cuilan** » Sun May 08, 2011 10:30 am

Come on guys, I'm not THAT shallow...

I'm perfectly ok with jets and tanks. Even if Ketsui had moe lolis/shotas all over, I'd still feel the same way about it.

My issue with Ketsui is the scoring mechanics (that matters more to me than anything else with any shooter).

I find the timer to be a real pain to deal with. The only way I can reliably keep it going easily is by point-blanking (something I really hate). I know switching shot types can also affect how long the timer lasts, but I really don't like that mechanic.

The arrange mode solves my main issues by making the timer far more flexible. I just have to point-blank once to activate the chips, then I can just sit back while I keep shooting and not have to worry about the timer so much. Then there's also the bullet canceling, which further helps keep the timer from running out and makes it easier to survive (and also works well with the more flexible rank).

But even so, I find it less fun than Futari. With Futari (in 1.5 Original mode at least), there are no timers to worry about; only an item counter that determines when I should use which shot type. Even if I decided to use the "wrong" shot type, it won't have such a drastic/long-term effect on the gems. On top of that, bullet canceling is still there and proximity plays less of a role. Besides that, I find Futari more aesthetically pleasing and find the music better.

And then there's Deathsmiles. The level-by-level rank select and stage select are fantastic features. They give the game far more variety and replay value, I think. The rank select also allows one to adjust the difficulty bit by bit to give an experience that matches one's skill level, and can then be gradually stepped up as one's skill increases to provide a greater challenge/better score. In this game, the shot type I should use isn't determined by some counter/timer, but by the types of enemies I'm up against, and using the "wrong" shot type has even less of a negative effect than it does in Futari (except for the lock shot in certain modes).

kernow · Post by **kernow** » Sun May 08, 2011 10:37 am

Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ

Cuilan · Post by **Cuilan** » Sun May 08, 2011 11:06 am

kernow wrote:Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ

BPzeBanshee · Post by **BPzeBanshee** » Sun May 08, 2011 11:21 am

Cuilan wrote:Come on guys, I'm not THAT shallow...

I'm perfectly ok with jets and tanks. Even if Ketsui had moe lolis/shotas all over, I'd still feel the same way about it.

My issue with Ketsui is the scoring mechanics (that matters more to me than anything else with any shooter).

I thought I'd read somewhere before that you had said you didn't like jets and tanks style of games. My bad.

As for your complaints about the scoring system, what you're saying in a nutshell is Ketsui (original) is tightass. In a way it is, you can't just sit back and let your options do the work/do the work at at a distance like you can with Mushi Futari and Deathsmiles. But Ketsui revolves entirely around point-blanking and use of shot types correctly for scoring. The timer's not exactly going to completely punish you in ways like Dodonpachi does for example, but it demands playing aggressively, which I guess isn't your sort of thing.

shmups.system11.org

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