What CAVE did.

[Rob]

What I am asking for:
No mandatory failures. Corollary: I don't want to do well because I got lucky.

They met your demands then.

[Drum]

If you don't think there is any mandatory memorising in Raiden Fighters, you probably shouldn't be trying to explain to us plebs why the mandatory memorising in Raiden Fighters is really ok.

[NzzpNzzp]

This is the kind of complaint I'd expect to see from casual bumblers.

Hey, I wasn't complaining, I like RF. Needing some memorisation isn't necessarily a bad thing.

[Despatche]

Suffer like C did?

[cools]

(General question: would games with a chain meter be more bearable if you died if it falls below some point, like the speedometer on the bus in speed? Or if you could discretion-ally 'lock' it in if you do particularly well, like Who Wants to be a Millionaire?)

I really like this idea.

Also, how about linking your shot to a buzz mechanic? Scrape bullets to be able to fire?

[ptoing]

Also, how about linking your shot to a buzz mechanic? Scrape bullets to be able to fire?

We did that in Thrustburst \o/

Tho I think in a normal shmup it would get rather tedious if you could not shoot at all unless you scraped. And it would become a different kind of milking (yawns).

[emphatic]

(General question: would games with a chain meter be more bearable if you died if it falls below some point, like the speedometer on the bus in speed?

Halley's Comet, Space Invaders etc?

[ptoing]

I think that is not quite what he meant. Tho I think something with the strictness of chaining as DDP would become pretty annoying and also unapproachable if you had to chain to survive. It would need to be a way more lenient chaining system, but overall I think it would be more frustrating than anything.

[CptRansom]

Chaining sucks because it's too much memorization. Point-blanking sucks because it's too much memorization. Grazing sucks because it's too much memorization. Games with fast bullets suck because they require too much memorization. Games with slow bullets suck because they require too much memorization. Games with rank suck because they require too much memorization. Reading sucks because it requires too much memorization of words and grammar. Math sucks because it takes too much memorization. Playing musical instruments sucks because they take too much memorization. Sports suck because you have to memorize rules. Dating sucks because it requires memorizing important dates and her interests and whatnot if you want to do well. Science sucks because it's too much memorization of formulae and chemicals and stuff. Board games suck because you have to memorize the rules.

Damn, I guess I should just sit around and watch TV (random channels - I'd hate to memorize what channels have what shows) and listen to music (I'll let my friends pick - I sure would hate to memorize what my favorite bands are).

Memorization is the foundation of learning. Get over it.

[Paradigm]

Amen.

[BIL]

If you don't think there is any mandatory memorising in Raiden Fighters, you probably shouldn't be trying to explain to us plebs why the mandatory memorising in Raiden Fighters is really ok.

I'm pretty sure you're one of the "casual bumblers" he was referring to.

Not quite the term I'd use, but it gets the point across. When you play modern shooters with any kind of seriousness, merely remembering not to be on the right of the screen when boss#2 fires off pattern#3 becomes much less of an imposition. You learn the basic game layout, then you start formulating advanced strategies. That's when things get interesting. This process applies to lots of competitive games.

edit: fixed link.

[Evilmaxwar]

Scrape bullets to be able to fire?

Shikigami no shiro is pretty close. I thought it was a cool idea.

[Blackbird]

Chaining isn't inherently bad, the implementation of it is just really unforgiving in a lot of games. I think the more recent DoDonPachi games/modes have done a lot to improve this. One of the modes simply decreases the value of your chain while it's broken (at roughly the same rate it would increase while chaining), then resumes the chain at that point as soon as you start a new chain. It's a lot more lenient. I like this a lot more than an all or nothing model.

I don't think point blanking is inherently bad, either. I do think it would be better implemented in a game that allows your craft to take more than one hit, though. Instant death + point blank scoring creates a bit too much incentive for suicidal play. That feels counter intuitive, when the secondary (primary?) objective is always to survive.

Not a big fan of grazing though. I hate tedious things like farming, whether it be enemies, bullets, items, etc., and grazing gets into farming really quickly. Letting the boss time out for thirty seconds while doing nothing but tap dodging a bullet stream feels lame and tedious. Also encourages counter intuitive play. Let's get as close as possible to the thing that can kill me!

[farewell]

Appealed to thousands of loligoobers across the globe.

Next generation of Cave fans becoming Touhou fans?
When will we see the first "which cave-character would you sleep with?-thread" with 20+ pages of serious answers?

OH MAN, RIVET!

...I mean yeah. That would be stupid.

[CptRansom]

Chaining isn't inherently bad, the implementation of it is just really unforgiving in a lot of games. I think the more recent DoDonPachi games/modes have done a lot to improve this. One of the modes simply decreases the value of your chain while it's broken (at roughly the same rate it would increase while chaining), then resumes the chain at that point as soon as you start a new chain. It's a lot more lenient. I like this a lot more than an all or nothing model.

This doesn't make sense to me. Every game with chaining DOES give you points for lots of smaller chains; they just don't give you as many points as larger chains, and rightfully so. It's a hell of a lot more work to memorize and execute one stage-long or game-long chain than it is to make three or four smaller ones. You still get points for the smaller chains; you're just not going to be setting records with them. How is that unforgiving or "all or nothing"? Unforgiving would be losing all your points every time you break chain instead of just getting a smaller reward. You aren't punished for breaking your chain, you're just not rewarded.

I don't think point blanking is inherently bad, either. I do think it would be better implemented in a game that allows your craft to take more than one hit, though. Instant death + point blank scoring creates a bit too much incentive for suicidal play. That feels counter intuitive, when the secondary (primary?) objective is always to survive.

Not a big fan of grazing though. I hate tedious things like farming, whether it be enemies, bullets, items, etc., and grazing gets into farming really quickly. Letting the boss time out for thirty seconds while doing nothing but tap dodging a bullet stream feels lame and tedious. Also encourages counter intuitive play. Let's get as close as possible to the thing that can kill me!

Both point-blanking and grazing are risk vs. reward systems. You want the reward of points? You risk your stock. They're only counter-intuitive if your goal in playing is to survive instead of score points, in which case why do you even bother talking about scoring systems? If you want simple scoring, play Raiden/Gradius/R-Type/etc.

(And no, there's nothing wrong with those. I like simple scoring myself, but I'm also not saying that more involved scoring systems are bad/flawed/counter-intuitive/whatever; I simply acknolwedge that they aren't my cup of tea and move on.)

[Treasurance]

DDP:R on iOS is the best cos its handheld, has achievements and DODONPACHI DAI-ONDO

also you can go through bullets by moving really fast

[BIL]

If you want simple scoring, play Raiden/Gradius/R-Type/etc.

Just avoid R-Type Delta and Raiden DX like the plague, they too require you to do dangerous stuff for points

[CptRansom]

OH NOES.

[ptoing]

Dangerous stuff for points is fine I think. As CR stated, it is risk reward. Even Tetris has risk reward and it works and makes a game more exciting. Tho there are some shmups with downright retarded scoring systems, Raiden Fighters Jet, I am looking at you. The way you have to try and avoid flying into the fucking massive medal which is floating in front of your nose so that you can make it bigger and get more points becomes pretty stupid in tight situations. Sure, chaining and all that influence how you can move and such, but not in such a direct and ass backward way.

[NzzpNzzp]

You can get the giant medal done and out of the way before the first level's over. Surely there aren't that many tight situations in the first level?

[DMC]

Chaining sucks because it's too much memorization. Point-blanking sucks because it's too much memorization...

First, I was nodding my head saying things like: "word!", "so true!", "couldn't have said it better"

...Games with fast bullets suck because they require too much memorization...

But, here I was like: "ok, there I disagree, but I give you that one..."

Games with rank suck because they require too much memorization.

"OK NOW you lost it!" here I was strongly considering writing a paragraph or two with pierceful arguments about how wrong you are, how the dynamics of rank present the player with quasi-novel situations that deemphazise memorization, etc, etc...

Reading sucks because it requires too much memorization of words and grammar...

Ok I got it. It was "irony" all along. Oh, well.

Rank rules!!!

[ptoing]

You can get the giant medal done and out of the way before the first level's over. Surely there aren't that many tight situations in the first level?

I can do it on the first level just fine, but I am sure they do not get easier as the game progresses. Then again I am not a fan of any of the Seibu Kaihatsu games. They look nice at least, just not my pair of shoes.

"irony"

sarcasm

[mjclark]

Tho there are some shmups with downright retarded scoring systems, Raiden Fighters Jet, I am looking at you.

Gosh! Guess this must be the backlash against all the recent Raidenmania on this forum

[NzzpNzzp]

I can do it on the first level just fine, but I am sure they do not get easier as the game progresses. Then again I am not a fan of any of the Seibu Kaihatsu games. They look nice at least, just not my pair of shoes.

The medals stop spawning once you've collected a full size one and then had 9 on screen at once, so they do get easier. You just build up a big one in stage one, use the miclus under the plane to get 9, and it's back to the gold bars like in 1 and 2, no need to worry about accidental collisions anymore. Unless you die and continue on the last stage, I guess, but I don't think you're too worried about your score in that case.

You could say it's retarded to have that medal fusion system and then stop using it after the first level, though, yeah. That is kinda weird.

[Drum]

Chaining sucks because it's too much memorization. Point-blanking sucks because it's too much memorization. Grazing sucks because it's too much memorization. Games with fast bullets suck because they require too much memorization. Games with slow bullets suck because they require too much memorization. Games with rank suck because they require too much memorization. Reading sucks because it requires too much memorization of words and grammar. Math sucks because it takes too much memorization. Playing musical instruments sucks because they take too much memorization. Sports suck because you have to memorize rules. Dating sucks because it requires memorizing important dates and her interests and whatnot if you want to do well. Science sucks because it's too much memorization of formulae and chemicals and stuff. Board games suck because you have to memorize the rules.

Damn, I guess I should just sit around and watch TV (random channels - I'd hate to memorize what channels have what shows) and listen to music (I'll let my friends pick - I sure would hate to memorize what my favorite bands are).

Memorization is the foundation of learning. Get over it.

Kind of gave the game away here. Some of the above examples are not like the others. Memorising principles - great. It's from there that you are actually playing the game - making judgements, formulating strategies, improvising etc. When you have learned how to read, you can write. When you have learned maths, you can solve equations you've never seen before. When you have learned to play an instrument, you can improvise. When you have learned the rules of a game ... you can actually play the game. All the actual worthwhile reasons for doing those things. If your end point is memorisation, or the memorisation doesn't have a point at all other than to suck money out of you, you are wasting your time. Stop makes excuses for this garbage. Chaining/point-blanking in a pattern-based shooter - for all the care the developers put into the mechanics and all the time you spent learning the routine, you might as well be playing Guitar Hero or one of those guide-the-hook through the bendy wire maze amusements. These games are always more interesting before you realise that at high levels of play they actually get dumber. When you are making decisions about whether to play it safe or go for more points, the game is actually interesting ... it's actually a game. That is when the risk vs reward mechanics are actually risk vs reward mechanics. When you've memorised everything, it defeats the entire point of the game, or any game worth playing. You are just grinding.

[BIL]

I am curious, which shooters do you consider to become "dumber" at high levels? And have you actually played these games?

And no, practicing something like DOJ =/= MMO-esque grinding. By that logic every skilled human endeavour from playing a song to a gymnastics routine is "grinding." You don't have to like straitjacket scoring systems like some of Cave's, but let's not start talking shit here.

[Drum]

I am curious, which shooters do you consider to become "dumber" at high levels? And have you actually played these games?

And no, practicing something like DOJ =/= MMO-esque grinding. By that logic every skilled human endeavour from playing a song to a gymnastics routine is "grinding." You don't have to like straitjacket scoring systems like some of Cave's, but let's not start talking shit here.

Cave games specifically, shmups generally.

[BIL]

Okay, but even in extreme cases like DOJ, it's not as if the game suddenly becomes a soulless regurgitation of button inputs once you've mastered the chaining of a level. There's still a tremendous level of pressure and risk on the player in high-level shooter play. It doesn't evaporate as skill improves.

I could see someone missing this if they were watching someone else's mastery of a game at work, which is why I asked how many of these games you've actually played.

[Paradigm]

but let's not start talking shit here.

Too late. He started on 07/02/10 and hasn't stopped since. I guess he just likes attention.

even in extreme cases like DOJ, it's not as if the game suddenly becomes a soulless regurgitation of button inputs once you've mastered the chaining of a level. There's still a tremendous level of pressure and risk on the player. It doesn't evaporate as skill improves.

Exactly.

[CptRansom]

I said memorization is the foundation, not the end. Of course a lot more goes into execution. Of course higher-order thinking is necessary as you get deeper into any task or game. However, these things are still built on a foundation of memorization much like anything else. Even basic math equations are worthless to someone who hasn't memorized what those little plus and minus signs mean. Just because you were so young and you've been doing it so long that it SEEMS instinctual doesn't mean that at some point in your life you had no fucking clue what that little + sign meant.

If you don't memorize some fingerings and at least basic music theory, you ain't improvising shit that won't sound like garbage. If you don't memorize enemy positions, you ain't chaining shit or point-blanking shit for a score that isn't garbage.

Scoring systems have fundamentals. You learn them. You work out basic routes. You memorize them. Then you reflect and refine them to make them better.

Or you just don't give a shit about scoring and you flail on your stick through the first few stages forever. Whatevs.