What CAVE did.

[apple arcade]

I've been thinking about this a lot. I think the thing that CAVE was able to do to set them apart from most other companies was they simply visualized the scoring.

I know that one thing I enjoy about Cave games is flooding the screen with bullets and then turning those bullets into points. Rather it be stars, or gems, or simply number counters, it's always fun and makes you feel sort of accomplished.

I dunno, I want to expand but don't know what else to say. What does everyone else think Cave did to set them from the rest of shmup companies?

[neorichieb1971]

I think it was more a case of they had more money and everyone else collapsed. Cave stole their talent and the shmup community in Japan was big enough to support one company.

To think it was based on a score is a little weird.


They are as a big as they are ever going to get though.

[Paradigm]

They made (and continue to make) great games. That's why they are where they are.

[Deca]

Cave should just steal Takumi's lead programmers and change their name to Toaplan.

[DMC]

It was indeed a good move to put more emphasis on the visual aspect of scoring as scoring systems got more complex. It makes scoring both more rewarding and more intuitive. I think many 90's developers started to utilize this though, like takumi and raizing, so I wouldn't give cave too much credit for it.

Question is how much further they can take it. It starts to get difficult filling the screen with more bullets, more medals/gems/etc. What's next, auditory feedback? In Muchi muchi Pork, the more medals you get, I would have liked a angry mob of pigs go
"oink, oink, oink, oink, oink, OINK, OINK, OINK, OINK, OINK, OINK, OINK, OINK, OINK, , OINK, OINK, OINK!!!
louder and louder 'til you hit the climax and suck them in.

[mjclark]

I've been thinking about this a lot. I think the thing that CAVE was able to do to set them apart from most other companies was they simply visualized the scoring.
I know that one thing I enjoy about Cave games is flooding the screen with bullets and then turning those bullets into points. Rather it be stars, or gems, or simply number counters, it's always fun and makes you feel sort of accomplished

That's it! I've been trying to put my finger on what's so CAVEish bout those CAVE games too recently and you're right- it's analogue representations of scoring that make it so addictive for me.Seeing the chain meter rising and falling, watching the Hyper Gauge fill up, numbered boxes pouring out of enemies and (as someone else on this forum put it so well) cataracts of stars falling from bosses all give the game play an emotional compulsion which mere digital counters never could.
Those analogue representations of score make me hungry to get more and more and more and more, and I can feel the scoring rather than just acknowledge it intellectually.
As you say: CAVE visualises scoring.

What's next, auditory feedback?

Actually Geoff Minter's Space Giraffe and Gridrunner Revolution have aural cues as an integral and essential part of the game in sections which deliberately become so visually distorted that you literally can't see what's going on but have to rely on your hearing to decide what action to take. This is all part of Minter's synaesthetic kick attempting to reproduce psychedelic experiences through the medium of gaming and it's really rather fun and, as we're establishing with CAVE, addictive and emotionally compelling.
Drifting OT, I've never really understood why Geoff Minter's recent shmup contributions aren't greeted more enthusiastically on this forum. Maybe because they sacrifice depth of gameplay for aesthetic experience. I'm sure someone will explain it to me soon enough

[DMC]

Another thing, I'm willing to give Cave more credit for, is the sucking in/absorbing of scoring items. It is a nice feeling when you have triggered a lot of gems in Futari, gold in ESPgaluda or medals in MMP to sit back, relax and let all gems/gold/medals flow to your ship. Itwas a nice mix between typical yagawa medals and cave absorbing they used in MMP. In other yagawa games, you couldnt enjoy the visual experience as much because you were so busy collecting each of the medals.

[Deca]

I love full screen number floods after bullet cancels in Mushi Futari and ESPgaluda2. Seeing the playfield become nothing but overlapping numbers as the game slows to a crawl is my favorite thing about those games. You sure as hell can't read the numbers or tell exactly how many points you got, but you know you did something good

[Muchi Muchi Spork]

Yeah I don't know about this. I was addicted to Cave games long before I ever started paying attention to scores, just in a blast everything and stay alive state. Every element of (most of) them destroys the competition. The controls, graphics, music, weapon ideas, enemy bullet patterns perfected to cause frustration but still not make you feel cheated, whatever else. The music composition itself in most of them is better than most other companies' shooters' entire game. In my opinion.

[DMC]

weapon ideas

They give you cool bombs, but you be damned if you use them. Waste of resources.
Why more developers havent encouraged bombs for scoring is a mystery.

[Demetori]

For me, it's the way SHIT BLOWS UP AND STUFF COMES OUT. CAVE games are virtualized piñatas, you hit stuff enough and rewards manifest. And sometimes, if you hit them for long enough with out destroying them, when they do die, more shit comes out.

Or.. since this Japan, I guess it'd be called a suikawari.

[Deca]

The music composition itself in most of them is better than most other companies' shooters' entire game. In my opinion.

Only since they got Namiki after Raizing went under, the older soundtracks don't do much for me.

I don't dislike Cave, I play the hell out of their games, but I still don't care for them as much as Raizing. Cave games feel so aesthetically samey and bland to me, I think mostly because of the pre-rendered graphics. The gameplay is spot on and that's the only thing that REALLY matters in a shooter, but Cave games just never have that extra special something.

[Muchi Muchi Spork]

The music composition itself in most of them is better than most other companies' shooters' entire game. In my opinion.

Only since they got Namiki after Raizing went under, the older soundtracks don't do much for me.

I don't dislike Cave, I play the hell out of their games, but I still don't care for them as much as Raizing. Cave games feel so aesthetically samey and bland to me, I think mostly because of the pre-rendered graphics. The gameplay is spot on and that's the only thing that REALLY matters in a shooter, but Cave games just never have that extra special something.

Well, it doesn't matter to me much where their employees came from. To me Raizing was awesome but they had very few games and were basically from a different time period with a little overlap. I prefer "the Ikeda feel" over any other shooters. I don't get that same feeling from other shooters, at least not to the same extent. Not sure how to explain it but a lot of, for example, Ketsui, feels like a drug. Destroying the midboss ship in stage 3 feels like a fricking brain orgasm, I'm certain there are some weird chemicals being released when you get in the zone there. Coupled with such good music and it's just incredible. Anyway it's not the scoring system alone that sets them apart is the only thing I wanted to say. I've heard other people say it's the scoring system that does it too, I just wanted to say I don't agree, but whatever makes people love them is good.

[Zeron]

CAVE made themselves exclusive to Japan while other companies like Raizing,Psikyo,TAKUMI made a huge gamble and that was going for the Western market which was the worst thing you could do especially around 1999-2003 when the arcades and overall the "traditional" genre of games in terms of popularity fell flat on their faces.




There is a reason why they stopped around 1999 with the USA,EU region PCBs (Pro Gear was published by CAPCOM so they pushed that release)

[Frederik]

I get your point, but I think the games feels actually too different between each title to support the "visual scoring" theory imho. For instance, I find the scoring in the DDP or Mushi series quite abstract, while the systems in Ketsui or Progear are much juicier, much more agressive.

CAVE has certainly this element of ridiculousness to it - huge, bubbly bullets, giant items, fat lasers, screens full of stuff. I love Alien Soldier (walking on the ceiling, dashing into bosses with devastating flame attacks, playing as a badass space chicken) or Bangai O (throwing back hundreds of missiles) for the same reason.

[neorichieb1971]

I prefer Caves earlier watered down affairs. All this filling the screen stuff is actually one of my anti Cave pet peeves.

[captpain]

They just make like, the BEST games, LOL!!!!!!

[kernow]

Appealed to thousands of loligoobers across the globe.

[DMC]

Appealed to thousands of loligoobers across the globe.

Next generation of Cave fans becoming Touhou fans?
When will we see the first "which cave-character would you sleep with?-thread" with 20+ pages of serious answers?

[spadgy]

That's it! I've been trying to put my finger on what's so CAVEish bout those CAVE games too recently and you're right- it's analogue representations of scoring that make it so addictive for me.Seeing the chain meter rising and falling, watching the Hyper Gauge fill up, numbered boxes pouring out of enemies and (as someone else on this forum put it so well) cataracts of stars falling from bosses all give the game play an emotional compulsion which mere digital counters never could.
Those analogue representations of score make me hungry to get more and more and more and more, and I can feel the scoring rather than just acknowledge it intellectually.
As you say: CAVE visualises scoring.

I don't know whether it's the main reason Cave are the dominant company, but the way you describe it exactly captures the reason I love their games.

EDIT: And...

CAVE games are virtualized piñatas

This! That's exactly what I love. Piñatas full of numbers and gems!

[Zengeku3]

When will we see the first "which cave-character would you sleep with?-thread" with 20+ pages of serious answers?

Inarguably the most entertaining part of Touhou fandom.

weapon ideas

They give you cool bombs, but you be damned if you use them. Waste of resources.
Why more developers havent encouraged bombs for scoring is a mystery.

Because bombs are things you use when you are about to die! What makes DDP high score plays so impressive is that they demand complete perfection from the players side in addition to well executed chains and if you can't deal with things without bombs, your score will suffer dramatically. Of course, if you wanna bomb for points, just go play Mountain of Faith or Subterranean Animism.

[DMC]

Because bombs are things you use when you are about to die!

Well, that's the most common way to use them. But Battle garegga showed already in '96 that you can very well use bombs for scoring purposes as well. By bombing background objets/scenery, bombing particular enemies, particular parts of bosses, milking bullets etc.

[Evilmaxwar]

First cave i ever played was original DDP on emulator. I immediately fell in love: Kick ass music + Loads of baddies + spot on controls + I really liked the explosion sprite.
At the time i did not care much about scoring, all i could think in my head was : " MOAR MOAR MOAR MOAR MOAR "
Somehow i never felt the magic of original DDP when playing other caves games. Did not try many though , DDP, feveron, Guwange, EspRade, Futari , thats all.

Guess i see the point of OP though as these days im starting to dig scoring mechanism.

[Hair]

No one has mentioned smaller hitboxes on the ship and bullets, and the brighter colored neon bullets. Weren't both of those Cave innovations with DP/DDP?

To me Cave is all about the easy-to-see bullets and the hitboxes that are smaller than the sprites. Their scoring innovations are less notable, IMO. It's the hitboxes and neon bullets that really got the bullet hell thing going, but props to Batsugun and Garegga as well.

[Deca]

Somehow i never felt the magic of original DDP when playing other caves games. Did not try many though , DDP, feveron, Guwange, EspRade, Futari , thats all.

Play Ketsui and DOJ

[Evilmaxwar]

No one has mentioned smaller hitboxes on the ship and bullets, and the brighter colored neon bullets. Weren't both of those Cave innovations with DP/DDP?

Good question, my shmup wisdom is not high enough to answer definitely but i know that Cho Ren sha was released on the Sharp x68000 same year as DP (1995). It pretty much has all the characteristics you listed and i think its more of a bullet hell than DP. It certainly is not as flamboyant as what cave started to make after though. Anyway Cho ren sha 68k definitely was an innovative game but i cant tell if DP came first or not, does it matter ?

Edit: Batsugun, i think many consider its the game that started the genre. It does have plenty of bright bullets, and as far as i remember hitbox is significantly smaller than usual Toaplan stuff. Afterward cave rose from the ashes of Toaplan.

Somehow i never felt the magic of original DDP when playing other caves games. Did not try many though , DDP, feveron, Guwange, EspRade, Futari , thats all.

Play Ketsui and DOJ

I will!! Someday, so many shmups to play!

[stanski]

Because bombs are things you use when you are about to die!

Well, that's the most common way to use them. But Battle garegga showed already in '96 that you can very well use bombs for scoring purposes as well. By bombing background objets/scenery, bombing particular enemies, particular parts of bosses, milking bullets etc.

There were a lot of other games that required bombs for scoring before this even as early as the 80's, but garregga definitely takes it to the extreme.

[Jeneki]

Batsugun, i think many consider its the game that started the genre. It does have plenty of bright bullets, and as far as i remember hitbox is significantly smaller than usual Toaplan stuff. Afterward cave rose from the ashes of Toaplan.

The hit box was even smaller in the Special Version.

Making the hitbox slightly smaller than the ship goes back even further, but Batsugun was the first one I remember playing and thinking "wow that passed right through me".

[Hair]

I have Batsugun on the Saturn but never really noticed the hitbox being much smaller than the sprite. Of course the hitbox isn't the same shape as the sprite, but I felt it was pretty large. My mistake. And the bullets are colorful, but not nearly as visable as later Cave games.

I definitly think Batsugun was a big innovation for Shmups, but I think Cave later took what made it work to the extreme and caused another innovation which changed the direction of the industry. I know some may disagree, but I consider Batsugun to be the prototype of "bullet hell", while DP and especially DDP really cemented the elements the define the genre.

I'll play some Batsugun tonight, but I remember the bullet patterns being faster but with bigger gaps. That game definitly bridges much of the gap between old school shooters and bullet hell, but I don't think it feels the same as more modern bullet hell games, while DDP feels closer.

I guess I should add "slower bullets, but more of them and with smaller gaps to dodge with that little hit box" to "what Cave did".

BTW, I have often heard that "manic" and bullet hell are basically the same genre, but I've also heard the term "manic" used to describe pre-bullet hell games like Batsugun, Garegga, and even DDP and "bullet hell" to describe later games with more spam and more bullets. Anyone feel one way other the other?

[Deca]

I have Batsugun on the Saturn but never really noticed the hitbox being much smaller than the sprite. Of course the hitbox isn't the same shape as the sprite, but I felt it was pretty large.

Play Special and the hitbox gets considerably smaller. The game also becomes way more enjoyable. Batsugun never did much for me until I played Special, then it became one of my favorite games.