Cave's Ketsui(2002): Fair or just a coin-grave?

[Wonderbanana]

There is; non-existent.

I betcha nobody could dodge every shot in Ikaruga.

That's because the whole point of the game isn't about dodging shots.

[emphatic]

That's because the whole point of the game isn't about dodging shots.

The whole point of Ketsui is dodging.

[Wonderbanana]

That's because the whole point of the game isn't about dodging shots.

The whole point of Ketsui is dodging.

Exactly. Ikaruga is a niche all in itself.

[Drum]

It makes me wonder if Battle Garegga was supposed to be a coin-grave with its rank. Could it just have been a coincidence that extend rates and suicides making the game 1CCable was unintentional?

According to this, more income for arcade operators is the sole reason why Yagawa programmed rank into his games.

This should come as no surprise to anybody. Whatever your criticisms of Ketsui ... at least it's not Battle Garegga.

That's because the whole point of the game isn't about dodging shots.

The whole point of Ketsui is dodging.

I don't know about that - when I don't want to get shot, number one on my list of things to not do is 'run up to the people trying to shoot me and kiss them on the lips'.

[emphatic]

I don't know about that - when I don't want to get shot, number one on my list of things to not do is 'run up to the people trying to shoot me and kiss them on the lips'.

You obviously need to practice your kissing skills.

[Sumez]

I'd say the point blanking of Ketsui only accentuates the focus on "dodge the bullet"-gameplay. Basically, to score high, you need to impose a greater risk upon yourself, which makes the bullet dodging more difficult (to some extend anyway, I think Ketusi is relatively forgiving here)
Ikaruga is something completely different.

[drei :3]

Ikaruga

I meant not getting hit in the sense of not getting damaged.

An example for what I meant are games with enemies that can damage the player's ship by crashing into it, that aren't signalled before they enter the playfield and fly with a speed that can't be dodged if you happen to be in the wrong spot when they enter, no matter what your reflexes are. Even if you have a huge health bar and surviving is easy, I call these games unfair. (An exception can be made for enemies coming into the playfield at the top in a vert or the right side in a hori, since being in these parts can be expected to be dangerous as a genre convention.)

[charlie chong]

BER managed to 1-all ketsui after playing it only at 3 meets. I know he planned his runs pretty meticulously with a bomb strategy but still

[Skykid]

Whatever your criticisms of Ketsui ... at least it's not Battle Garegga.

Warning, a huge lack of taste approaching fast.

[Despatche]

This should come as no surprise to anybody. Whatever your criticisms of Ketsui ... at least it's not Battle Garegga.

Other than the fact that there are two unique "second loops" and strict requirements for one of them, of course.

[Treasurance]

DOOM is pretty fair but rest of the game is a coin grave

[Zengeku3]

Doom is fair and so goes for the rest of the game.

[Drum]

Whatever your criticisms of Ketsui ... at least it's not Battle Garegga.

Warning, a huge lack of taste approaching fast.

Stockholm syndrome.

[Chaos Phoenixma]

Has everything in Ketsui Ura been successfully no miss no bombed by someone?

Even if not, the game is still completely fair.

[Demetori]

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/NintendoHard

Ketsui, Nintendo Hard?

[MrMonkeyMan]

The only unfair thing about Ketsui is when the Tiger Schwert clone flies off the screen denying you the 1up in stage 5. Especially unfair when it happens in the second loop.

Why wasn't this ever fixed in any version ever?

[RNGmaster]

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/NintendoHard

Ketsui, Nintendo Hard?

Link to TVTropes and I will kill you.

[gs68]

Anything with more than 10 bullets on screen will be classified as bullet hell and impossibly hard by TV Tropes. I've actually reversed a few edits exaggerating the difficulty of Cave's games.

I also know an editor who kills any links to Mushi's TLBs.

[RNGmaster]

I also know an editor who kills any links to Mushi's TLBs.

That was me before I got banned.

Oh, and isn't "exaggerating Touhou's 'impossible' difficulty" a better fit, considering the huge volume of TH fans on TVTropes?

[Sumez]

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/NintendoHard

Ketsui, Nintendo Hard?

As far as I understand, "Nintendo Hard" basically refers to arcade style difficulty where playing the game is mostly a question of seeing how high you can score and how far you can get on the credits available to you, while beating the game is only possible through true dedication. I don't see how Ketsui doesn't fit into this.

Crappy controls and old school systems (like huge hitboxes) is often a part of "Nintendo Hard" too, but I don't think it's a requirement.

[Demetori]

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/NintendoHard

Ketsui, Nintendo Hard?

As far as I understand, "Nintendo Hard" basically refers to arcade style difficulty where playing the game is mostly a question of seeing how high you can score and how far you can get on the credits available to you, while beating the game is only possible through true dedication. I don't see how Ketsui doesn't fit into this.

Crappy controls and old school systems (like huge hitboxes) is often a part of "Nintendo Hard" too, but I don't think it's a requirement.

I agree with you on this, I was never intending to say Ketsui was everything "Nintendo Hard" classifies. But it is a few of them for sure. Is this not a lot of the appeal?

[burgerkingdiamond]

How is Ketsui that much harder than other current gen CAVE games? They're all hard as shit. That's the point.l

[Demetori]

How is Ketsui that much harder than other current gen CAVE games? There all hard as shit. That's the point.l

And most of us love them for it!　And this doesn't just go for CAVE.

[Sumez]

It's definitely in the tough end, but nothing extraordinary.

What originally attracted me to the game was actually the fact that it seemed easier to me than most shoot'em ups.
Not in the sense that I would die less or go farther in the first few tries, not at all - but every death I suffered in the game just seemed much more avoidable than what I'm used to - even in Cave games (which are usually very fair despite the difficulty) - so to me it's a great game that really invites me to keep training harder.
I only recently started getting into the game, and I don't really have a lot of time for playing games, but I really can't wait to improve further and experience the later stages.

[Zengeku3]

Has everything in Ketsui Ura been successfully no miss no bombed by someone?

Even if not, the game is still completely fair.

AFAIK, nobody has no miss no bombed everything in DDP either. Not that I've seen anyway. I've seen really good performances but they all mess up in 2-5, 2-6 or against Hibachi. Not that I can blame them of course. Doesn't mean that its unfair though. Its probably just so hard that nobody has managed it yet.

However, having seen multiple super plays of Ketsui, I have seen players being able to no miss no bomb every part of the game. The INH DVD's Tiger Schwert replay has an excellent performance on the URA loop (The panzer jager one too but it didn't stand out as much), especially Stage 2-5 where he ran out of bombs and had to dodge absolutely insane things.

And Doom... i've never seen him perfected. Only almost. You probably know what video I refer to.

Oh and Enigma. HFD's run of DOJ wasn't entirely perfect either. 1 miss on Hibachi and one bomb on 2-5 Final Boss.

[BryanM]

Cinderella Amber seems way, way easier on the real beast than she was in Death Label.

Does proximity really increase your dps? If so, why didn't they implement it in the DS version?

Ghost's N Goblins for the NES is definitely unfair

Ah, that speed run of it this guy recorded on VHS was a heart breaker. He didn't die, but he fell off a platform in the tower and lost like 10 seconds. As he was slowly floating down to the platform below, man tears flowed freely from my eyes.

[burgerkingdiamond]

Cinderella Amber seems way, way easier on the real beast than she was in Death Label.

Does proximity really increase your dps? If so, why didn't they implement it in the DS version?

Ghost's N Goblins for the NES is definitely unfair

Ah, that speed run of it this guy recorded on VHS was a heart breaker. He didn't die, but he fell off a platform in the tower and lost like 10 seconds. As he was slowly floating down to the platform below, man tears flowed freely from my eyes.

I don't know if I've seen the same one, but it probably is the same. This guy finishes each loop in like 13 minutes without dying... I would have said it was impossible. Utterly impossible...

[NzzpNzzp]

Does proximity really increase your dps?

Just locks you on faster, damage stays the same.

[Aconcit]

For your regular shot the dps is increased when you're closer in proximity. The lock shot just locks on faster.

[eatingbadly]

I have actually never played Ketsui at least that I remember. Looking for a good romdump tonight though.

I betcha nobody could dodge every shot in Ikaruga.

For sure agree. Ikaruga is IMHO the most difficult of all shmups. (Of those I have played of course).