(SOUNDS LIKE) No more shmups from Aksys :/

[burgerkingdiamond]

Regarding the modifications, here is my theory:

The Japanese 360 game has some programmed-in slowdown and some that is not programmed in, but rather a result of the 360 being overwhelmed by the on-screen action. (AKA, unintended slowdown) Considering that the 360 has been plagued by heating-related failures, it is quite possible that releasing a game which knowingly and repeatedly bogs down the system is against some coding practices set forth by Microsoft's NA branch. As such, Cave found a way to restructure the code in a way that wouldn't bog down the system for the US release. Unfortunately, this restructuring of the code also put less demands on the arcade-mode's emulation, so it failed to reproduce the slowdown that was on the original PCB.

Furthermore, descriptions of the patch changes suggest that all of the added-in slowdown was programmed in because they probably were not allowed to revert to the Japanese codebase due to worries about overheating.

Just a theory, but it fits all of the seemingly contradictory public statements. I know it's not going to change the minds of any haters, but I think understanding a situation makes it easier to at least empathize with the people who are trying to make the right choices and bring us an enjoyable game.

Nah, I don't buy that. I think the only reason for the initial lack of slowdown was due to a change in rendering engine for the US/EU releases. They never admitted this, but they did specifically state that the US/EU releases used a new graphics engine that was different from the one used in the original Japanese release.

Well, aside from the motivation, that still fits with my post and doesn't change the result. I do recall them saying their 360 games are using a graphics library developed by a third party, so you are quite possibly right. It makes sense that that they would want to use the newest version of that library for each release as minor bugfixes and other tweaks are likely rolled in with the performance improvements.

I guess the question then would be if the patched NA game uses an older version of the graphics library or if they just went through and manually coded in slowdown in a variety of places. I can say the game never graphically glitched on me until after the patch, so perhaps they did just use an older version of the library. As a programmer, changes that result in less reliable and less efficient code being used make me sad.

I need to go home and read the box because I have no idea what you're talking about. ... I don't think that there is anything wrong with the cover.

I think it's the quote on the back that is the big turn-off. Something like, "Death smiles at everyone. Lolis smile back."

That probably made some people put the box down.

ehh whatever. None of my friends give a shit about shmups or my collection so I have nobody to laugh at me.

[MR_Soren]

So, anybody who did like NA Deathsmiles and wishes to further support Aksys and the genre has an opportunity to give them more money...

The themes and avatars are now available in NA!

[TrevHead (TVR)]

There's allot of ppl who impulse buy many of their games, for example they see bulletstorm on the shelf, they dont know bugger all about the game only that its a FPS and that they like games from that genre. A game with lolis on the box thats an relativly unknown genre has no chance. So I supose MR_Soren has a point about the fans needing to sell the game through word of mouth, but then again the fans need to actually like the game in the first place if theyre going to hype it. Personally I blame Cave for dropping a bollock with the slowdown issue.

If cave is to suceed in the west it certanly needs word of mouth and treasure like credability if their games have any hope of been popular. (Especially in todays gaming market where a high volume of multiplatform titles are released every month.) Hopefully Nin2Jump can help with giving Cave the cred it deserves

[drunkninja24]

I need to go home and read the box because I have no idea what you're talking about. ... I don't think that there is anything wrong with the cover.

I think it's the quote on the back that is the big turn-off. Something like, "Death smiles at everyone. Lolis smile back."

That probably made some people put the box down.

Yeah, I never liked that Aksys played up the loli portion of the game. Boob mousepads in Agarest is one thing, but something like this kinda touches on "creepy" with western audiences.

[Bananamatic]

"Death smiles at everyone. Lolis smile back."

That really is on the back? Goddamn.

[drauch]

Yeah, I never liked that Aksys played up the loli portion of the game. Boob mousepads in Agarest is one thing, but something like this kinda touches on "creepy" with western audiences.

Yeah, because the oppai mousepad girl is actually of age. I mean, if she wasn't I would still be resting my wrist on some underage breasts, but this legal aged boob pad feels so much better.

[Skykid]

I'm simply saying that discussing the issue within the community is sensible. Bad-mouthing the game to people outside the community about issues they do not care about harms the game and the community. That is not sensible.

Amazon Review

Until very recently, there were two reviews like this and fewer positive ones, dragging the score down around 3.5. I'm positive that it impacted sales.

EDIT: Reading it again, it sounds like EOJ wrote it himself, so I'm not surprised that this review's author was too in love with his own writing to edit it positively for the patched version.

Deathsmiles NA had no onions.
Deathsmiles UK did.

The NA version got it's onions before the UK version was released. I also hear it had more onions. Where's the boycott? Did it get a pass because fewer games get localized in Europe?

Lolz, that's definitely EOJ. (EDIT: Apparently it isn't EOJ - whoops! Looks like someone else has gone on a slowdown rampage. ) But look, he's a consumer, he has a right to criticise where criticism is due. If I were within the US, anticipating the DS localisation, I would be extremely grateful for that review. It's completely in-depth about the shortcomings of the game, and I certainly wouldn't buy it.

I don't think the NA version got its onions before the UK release (I'm liking this onion analogy), I had the PAL version just before the patch came out. Afaik, the patch has made certain modes in the NA release have more slowdown than they're supposed to, so the PAL one is still closer to the JP.

For the last time, and this is my opinion of course, I'm totally baffled by this blind brand allegiance. You guys are totally dismissive of vocal criticism from the gaming public and would rather it was kept behind closed doors just so more people could by an inferior version of a game and then find out later. WTF?

If we don't stamp our feet over these things, Cave will continue to get it wrong with every possible localisation in future. By making a noise about DS NA, by getting public sentiment out there and impacting sales, Aksys have listenend, Cave have listened, and a patch to improve the experience has been delivered.

On the back of this I can't imagine the same mistake being made again. If anything, you should consider the backlash to be a long term positive rather than a short term negative.

"Death smiles at everyone. Lolis smile back."

That really is on the back? Goddamn.

And yeah, worst marketing slogan ever.

[dannnnn]

Nobody is intentionally turning off potential fans by speaking their mind. The NA release came under criticism from the existing fanbase who reside in the west. People who have had access to the game previously have a right to complain, such is the dynamic of the free market system. If you release a product considered sub-par (or in this case, inaccurate) then any kind of backlash is completely acceptable.
If this puts off potential buyers who wouldn't have known any different, tough shit, should have thought about that before modifying the game.

I'm not wishing them ill, I'm criticising their practices. Criticism is customer feedback and is completely invaluable. If you need proof of this, just look at the accuracy of the UK release.
Don't get me wrong, I'm all for supporting Cave as a gamer, they make great software. But I don't get down on my knees and jerk off for any company expecting money from my pocket just 'because'.

I totally agree. What were people supposed to say? "Oh crap, they've botched this release, but let's not tell anyone in case it affects sales". They messed up the game and were criticised accordingly.

Having said that, if I lived in NA and didn't already own either the JP version or the PCB, I'd have bought it. Not out of loyalty to Cave or to encourage Aksys to consider future STG localisations though, I'd simply rather have a botched version of a good game than none at all. I'll happily play Ibara on PS2 and that's much worse with regards to slowdown accuracy.

And who knows? If the slowdown in the NA version of DS had been more faithful to the PCB/JP version at the time of release, perhaps more western reviewers would have ignorantly mistaken it for bad programming and complained about there being too much of it, which could also have affected sales. STG's are a niche market, DS was never gonna sell millions. I think everyone who wanted it got their copy and all sales on top of that should be considered a bonus. Personally I was surprised at how well it sold.

And for what it's worth, if my burger came without onions I wouldn't complain. I'm English. If I fell over and broke my leg I'd hobble home and hope nobody noticed rather than ask for help

[MR_Soren]

Lolz, that's definitely EOJ. But look, he's a consumer, he has a right to criticise where criticism is due. If I were within the US, anticipating the DS localisation, I would be extremely grateful for that review. It's completely in-depth about the shortcomings of the game, and I certainly wouldn't buy it.

(EDITED out false EOJ) That review's author is incredibly in-depth and informative in his writing. I just think it was un-called for to give the game a one-star review as it is not a shoddy product. He even admitted in his review that it was fun to play. The only flaw is that it's just not identical to this "Original Japanese" standard that the average NA consumer does not care about.

Part of writing a review is to be objective and know who you are writing for. The audience of clueless Amazon shoppers just want to know if the game is fun. The ones who need to know more will read the reviews and see that the slowdown is not arcade accurate. It seems like if somebody was truly hoping to give useful criticism, he would give it a higher star rating (at least 3) for being a good game while still warning people who care that the slowdown is not arcade accurate.

Instead, what I see is sensible and informative writing, but a needlessly vindictive star rating that will turn off a shopper's interest before they investigate further.

For the last time, and this is my opinion of course, I'm totally baffled by this blind brand allegiance. You guys are totally dismissive of vocal criticism from the gaming public and would rather it was kept behind closed doors just so more people could by an inferior version of a game and then find out later. WTF?

It's not blind allegiance. The game is not inferior to those with no prior experience. I personally love the game and have gotten many hours of enjoyment from it. The slowdown criticism is irrelevant to most people, and the exaggeration of that criticism's importance needlessly harmed sales. I'm all for fair and accurate reviewing, but that includes giving proper weight to a game's flaws.

On the back of this I can't imagine the same mistake being made again. If anything, you should consider the backlash to be a long term positive rather than a short term negative.

No, the same mistake won't be made again, because they aren't localizing any more games. That's what this whole thread is about.

It's not a long term positive. I don't get to play Red Katana or Deathsmiles II because of this, while the people making all the noise lost nothing.

[Skykid]

Lolz, that's definitely EOJ. But look, he's a consumer, he has a right to criticise where criticism is due. If I were within the US, anticipating the DS localisation, I would be extremely grateful for that review. It's completely in-depth about the shortcomings of the game, and I certainly wouldn't buy it.

Yes, EOJ, despite his inability to see any perspective but his own, is incredibly in-depth and informative in his writing. I just think it was un-called for to give the game a one-star review as it is not a shoddy product. He even admitted in his review that it was fun to play. The only flaw is that it's just not identical to this "Original Japanese" standard that the average NA consumer does not care about.

Part of writing a review is to be objective and know who you are writing for. The audience of clueless Amazon shoppers just want to know if the game is fun. The ones who need to know more will read the reviews and see that the slowdown is not arcade accurate. It seems like if somebody was truly hoping to give useful criticism, he would give it a higher star rating (at least 3) for being a good game while still warning people who care that the slowdown is not arcade accurate.

Instead, what I see is sensible and informative writing, but a needlessly vindictive star rating that will turn off a shopper's interest before they investigate further.

I actually completely agree with this. The content is fine, but 1 star is a silly score. You could give the accuracy 1 star, but the game is worth more regardless. Unnecessarily antagonistic perhaps.

The game is not inferior to those with no prior experience. It's merely different. I personally love the game and have gotten many hours of enjoyment from it. The slowdown criticism is irrelevant to most people, and the exaggeration of that criticism's importance needlessly harmed sales. I'm all for fair and accurate reviewing, but that includes giving proper weight to a game's flaws.

Yes, yes and yes. All fair points. But those who are aware of the slowdown issue had just as much right to be vocal about it as those that didn't know/care who threw all those 5 star ratings on Amazon (is DS even a 5 star game?! A 4 maybe.)
Kinda treading old ground here, but if you screw something up, people have every right to publicly voice their disdain. Cave/Aksys can blame themselves for that.

On the back of this I can't imagine the same mistake being made again. If anything, you should consider the backlash to be a long term positive rather than a short term negative.

No, the same mistake won't be made again, because they aren't localizing any more games. That's what this whole thread is about.

It's not a long term positive. I don't get to play Red Katana or Deathsmiles II because of this, while the people making all the noise lost nothing.

Ah relax man, someone will localise something. If not Aksys then someone else.
If somehow no more ports ever do materialise in the west, it's not the end of the world. Just buy a JP 360 and all those problems will melt away.

Cave have some scheme they're hatching for the west anyway, that much is clear. Thinking this is the last we'll see of them is pretty alarmist.

[Chaos Phoenixma]

You mention Akai Katana and Deathsmiles II. What about Daifukkatsu and Daifukkatsu BL?

[StarCreator]

I think Akai Katana really should be the next port to come out here, assuming Aksys or another distributor are even willing to give it a shot. It promises to be their most gorgeous game yet with higher resolution assets than the other sprite-based games, and it fills the entire screen (since yes, there are people who will complain about any game that isn't a full 16:9, even on these forums here). I'd definitely pick it over Deathsmiles IIX and DFK if I were the one making the decision, based purely on my opinion that the visuals are the most marketable to western audiences of the three.

[Chaos Phoenixma]

I'm not even really interested in Akai Katana or Deathsmiles II, but I'd probably still get them if they came out here. DFK is the one that I really want out of the ones I can't already play.

[DragonInstall]

DLC seems like the only way for companies who localize, to turn a decent profit. I can't see many shmups being localized outside of Japan until then.

[TrevHead (TVR)]

After Nin2Jump I can imagine one US publisher to come out of the woodwork. If not you could pester Rising Star Games to make their localisations dual region (PAL / US). Infact having just a single publisher for both PAL and US would be best for all of the fans as it would increase the number of games picked up for localisation. Why dont you guys try posting on RSG forums proposing the idea (the are quite pro-active in responding to forum posters)

I wonder how many dual regoin games / shmups there has been in the past. The only game I know that was dual regoin was Warsong (langrisser) on the MD

@ DragonInstall, DLC is a very good idea and something that cave already does. Its a shame that they dont make their pre order / first print free DLC available for later buyers. Pre-order DLC would make 1st class DLC for localised games aswell as any platinum pack. If DFK BL ever got a PAL release I plan on pestering the fuck out of RSG untill they make DFK Ketsui available

[Sumez]

(since yes, there are people who will complain about any game that isn't a full 16:9, even on these forums here).

I think it's difficult to argue that it's not an advantage.
I'd prefer DFK over Akai Katana for two reasons: 1. Ikeda + 2. Ketsuipachi - even though I wasn't much for the earlier Donpachi games.
But I TOTALLY understand a 16:9 game is a lot easier to sell, it's obvious that game that's able to take up all of your screen is going to look prettier than one that takes up less than half of it (not counting TATE, since it's out of the question for most people), and honestly that's a plus in my book as well as the average consumer's. Gameplay wise, Cave have previously, on at least 2 or 3 occasions, been able to prove that making a game horizontal does not necessarily make it any less awesome.

[Skykid]

For the record folks, apparently that Amazon review isn't EOJ, meaning people taking issue with the slowdown goes beyond what you may expect. I've made an edit to my above post to correct the assumption.