What will shmups be like in 10 years from now?

[ptoing]

That game looks somewhat boring I have to say.

[Sumez]

Lol what?? I love how the guy thinks no other shoot'em up uses aimed shots.
If R-Type didn't have aimed shots it would be hell of a lot easier.

When making this type of game you should really do your research first. :\
I think the game looks sort of fun, but I'd probably much rather play Neo Contra than this.

[rocketassistedkea]

Here's a boring game; sitting.
Having said that; sitting, and sitting in boxes...seems to be a favourite game of cats. It's like; "Streetfighter", for felines. I'm sure they even compete at it.
Have you noticed...how one cat finds a new sitting place, then that spot gets noticed, and taken by other cats?

Moving on.
I have a pair of great sci-fi art books from 1979/80 [there's a remake using computer graphics in place of original artwork, but it's not as good;] called "Spacecraft 2000-2100', and 'SpaceWreck [the second in the trilogy].
Anyways...in the first, there are a few ships that are covered with, say; 56 laser/particle-beam projecters-that litter the hull in the form of little holes everywhere, with painted [warning] rings around them. This forms the ships light-armament.
In a shmup...that'd be a perfect excuse to use the second stick, and add an additional element of aiming....as, at least along the A [frontal] arc of your ship....you'd point in whatever direction, and a light laser/particle thingy will emit. Great for popcorn enemies.
I'd also like to see a move away from screen-clearing uber weaponry [yawn], in favour of a wider, more varied, more tactical, more imaginative array...but I've already said that;0)

Any way to mess with bullets, without cancelling them...would be cool too. Maybe you could have a choice of shields...standard energy-absorbant, a reflecter, one that slows down bullets around your ship....and another that curves them away from the ship. The former, means the shield and the ship MAY take concussive/electrical damage, the reflecter charges slowly-and can only be used briefly, whilst the two latter...don't result in contact with the flak, but are harder to use.

Really think damage, and a shield/engine/weapon power-management system is a good idea. It's been done before...but not very often, and never in a shmup [to my knowledge].
In 'Star Raiders' [showing my age here...it's from 1979]; the way you took damage randomly THROUGH your shields, made every game different. As how things turned out also related directly to survival...it also meant the differences in each game; were noticed, and memorable. Il-2 Sturmovik would be a much-reduced game too...if you didn't get shot down a different way each time. GTA4 also had something similar...I lost count of the different ways to die.
I can visualize now...a shmup player getting lucky, frigate-sized starship [but still tiny, relative to the screen...and handles like a fighter, as it's all powerplant], crawling at 1/10th engine power [engines knocked out], weapons gone...but shields still working, getting knocked around in a bullet-hell from each hit [2nd loop choosable from the start, if you wish]....and pounded to the back of the screen, defenceless. As things slowly begin to work again, if you survive...you get back into the fight.
You might get extra-lucky, and take 10 hits with no damage [statistically unlikely, though]...or you might be gone in two hits [complete shield failure/hull torn apart, or shields flicker inoperatively at the wrong split-second/hull torn apart.]
As to explaining the tech that automatically repairs your ship over time, that's a sci-fi no-brainer...nanotech;0)

What else? I don't know.
Maybe coat the disk in something that gives you great aerodynamic qualities...so if you don't like the game; you could skim it across the road.
Or you could sell it.

Z

[Sumez]

You suggest "random" damage?

I always figured the one major strength shmups have over basically any other genre is the boiled down straight played gameplay, where left/right/up/down dodges the bullets/obstacles, and the fire button kills your target. Nothing is ever random and everything is left entirely to the skills of the player without any abstract calculations in your way.

[ptoing]

That nothing is ever random is a misconception.
Most shmups use seeds to randomise certain things to a extent. Such as spam patterns, and whatnot. It make a difference in keeping the player on his toes. But you are correct, ideally stuff comes down to skill. And stuff like random damage would feel a bit odd. That kinda stuff should be foreseeable if you played enough and should indeed not be random. IMO at least.

[Sumez]

Trust me when I say that "random" spam patterns are completely not random! They are carefully calculated to appear random but at the same time avoid being too easy or too unfair. At least if they are well made.
In a balanced score game, one run should never be easier than another due to sheer luck - but you're completely correct in saying that games should not rely too much on predictability (though of course, opinions may differ).

In fact, what is truly random is often not perceived as random by the human brain. Here's an interesting blog on the subject if you're nerdy enough to care:
http://blogs.msdn.com/b/shawnhar/archiv ... mness.aspx
His "planting trees" example is not too far from a random bullet spam pattern.

[ptoing]

Well, of course the spam patterns are random within a certain margin. A small margin. And it is a seeded kinda random seeing as true random is pretty hard to do on a computer in any case.

[rocketassistedkea]

You suggest "random" damage?

I always figured the one major strength shmups have over basically any other genre is the boiled down straight played gameplay, where left/right/up/down dodges the bullets/obstacles, and the fire button kills your target. Nothing is ever random and everything is left entirely to the skills of the player without any abstract calculations in your way.

Heya...I can only recall three games that had random damage, off the top of my head [Star Raiders, IL-2, Far Cry 2]....all were far richer for it. It MADE them.
Clearly, it'd be controversial, like rank [I love rank, but have no problem with it being choosable-to make life easier for kids/newcomers]...I mean, the way your guns jammed and even outright exploded in FC2-some people hated....but I reckoned it was the best part of the game;0) I'd deliberately hunt-down, and hold onto the oldest, rustiest guns....which [sometimes] made even a fight with popcorn enemies [yawn], exciting, and different every time.
Abstract calculations, maybe...maybe not. IL-2 had very specific damage, such as; having a wing-spar shot-out, but as you could never actually unrun bullets; you got hit-where-you-were-hit.....hence; it might as well have been a random abstract calculation. You had no real control over where you'd get hit, hence it FELT random. But was deeply satisfying;0) You'd see the damage, but more importantly; you'd 'feel' it. I mean, strip away the damage...and where does IL-2 get it's rep from? There are plenty of other sims out there, that thrust you headfirst into the action, with good pacing...some are even more accurate in their handling models. But IL-2 remains a beacon for the hardcore sim/action crowd.

In a shmup, you control a super-starship....even with massive damage......you'd quickly come right, and would just have to survive for a second-or-two longer than usual. TFIV/V, and RS...have shown that people don't shy away from complexity. An extra bit of challenge, won't scare most shmuppers. In fact, considering it's probably the most mind-meltingly difficult genre out there...I reckon most shmuppers, even if they complained [like with rank]; would secretly covet the extra challenge. The unpredictability...adds to the experiance, and made the games I mentioned seemed more 'alive'. It sounds like a bad idea...but it's worked brilliantly, in the games I've played that've had it. But it'd take guts on the developers part, as it's clearly 'hardcore'. But really...what shmups that aren't hardcore....get remembered, and survive the test of time?
In any case, you have a shield...which is a pretty big advantage, if you combined that with a tiny hitbox. You could have other repulser-type shields, too, that are hard to use...as you'd need to stay within the proximity of the bullet, for it to [slowly] begin to work....your energy-absorbant type.....would always work the first time, after that......you're in the hands of the gods. I reckon it'd be fun, losing some of your agility/weapons for a while...I play like that anyway, depending on my mood. In any case, the only damage that's critical...is losing your shields outright, or having them damaged and flickering unpredictably...as a hit to your hull would be fatal. The latter [shields flickering], kept me on the edge of my seat in; Star Raiders'.
In Il-2, which even simulates disrupted airflow over cannon-holes in the airframe [and bullet holes...try getting six .50 cal holes in your wing....] you had great fun, once your plane began handling like a turd. Also, if you simply respawned after death [as in most shmups, and IL-2]...who would really care, except, perhaps; those who've had their score-run disrupted? I've never, not once, played a shmup for score...but that's me. I play these games my way, depending on my mood, i.e; letting the screen fill with flak, and letting whole waves of enemies pass me by-without a shot. Hard to score, playing like that. If a game doesn't have rank...I make my own;0)

At the end of the day, these games need to evolve...or the genre will wither away. You can only take away so much complexity...before you're left with wide/narrow/bomb....and there's no future in that.
As a side-note, I paint landscapes, and have recently developed a method that's truely one-layer...ideal for an oil-sketch [no underpainting, even]; but there's absolutely NO future in simplifying it any more. The future for me, in terms of keeping an experimental edge...is adding complexity, to larger studio pics. Both [sketch, studio] have their place, but only one offers a way forward. The other is; 'more of the same'. Nothing wrong with that, if it works...but it's a short-term vision, without much growth potential. Except in building a stockpile. We also live in a post-modern world, meaning; everything's been done. I.e, the 7 art-theoretical qualities of; abstraction, infinity, repose [silence], contrast, harmony, unity and variety...have individually been pushed as far as they can go. The death of Modernism. So what's this post-modern future? Raping and pillaging the past...and recombining in new ways, i.e; adding complexity.
Partly why some people have been looking forward to i.e, Pink Sweets...as because it doesn't play like other Cave games. A varied weapons system is one option, but taking it further...a power management system between weapons/shields-with engines affected by default [thus keeping the controls simple/ not adding complexity merely for the sake of it]....taking another leap of faith [not really, it's worked in other games-not completely untrodden territory].....and you have damage. Sweet;0)

P.s, yes...I am that geeky to care; and am half-way through that article. Reminds me of something I read in 'New Scientist'. Interesting stuff.

Z

[TVG]

Nice display of why old people shouldn't make games.

Also that guy in the interview. You gotta wonder how much his game will suck when he lists "aimed bullets" as the main innovation of your game. It's like Xevious never came out and all that is left are retarded euroshmups where ennemies fire straigth ahead like morons.

Again, it's al old bloke who didn't play anything past the atari etc era. These people need to die off, seriously.

[rocketassistedkea]

Rant [which I just deleted]. Thought you were talking about me TVG;0) Thanks Sumez.
My bad...this is why I hate txting, and e-mails too. Too easy to get misconstrued, without body-language, real-time reply e.t.c.

P.s; thanks for your Radio Zonde recommendation;0) I looked at a youtube...that's definitely my kind of game. 2nd loop from the start. No euroshmups for me;0)

Z

[Sumez]

rocketassistedkea, I think he was talking about the guy making Gattling Whatever...

[stryc9]

This place is great.

[TrevHead (TVR)]

I think shmup devs need to be very carefull with randomisation. Randomisation with bullet patterns isnt a bad idea (kento cho is big on this) but when we start getting into the territory of random damage, lives etc this spoils the game since this takes gameplay away from skilled play and into luck. Thats the main fault of Xexex with its random power ups / lives.

Im not a really a 2D Fighters gamer but Ild imagine if Street Fighter 5 had random damage or some other shitty random thing, it would never be played in tournaments since any serious competion needs to be fair. I see shmups as just the same thing only your competing against the game, highscores etc.

[koleslaw54]

I agree that random damage is no fun, but then again, I'm all about one-hit kills as far as the player ship is concerned.

When it comes to random bullet patterns, I think its possible to implement a degree of randomness while still keeping many traditional patterns working. Using different mathematical functions (constant, linear, exponential, logarithmic, quadratic, etc.) you can choose the firing times and angles for different bullet emitters attached to ships. By simply choosing random coefficients for these equations, there will be a great degree of variation in the enemies, but the bullets will still be fired in many of the bullet hell patterns we've learned to dodge over the years.

[ptoing]

What TVR said.

[TrevHead (TVR)]

The wierd thing is, is that many ppl percieve luck gameplay with a low chance of success as been hard difficulty. Just look at all the JRPGs that are in 10 hardest bosses / games ever vids on You Tube. They dont seem to diffirenciate between luck and skilled based difficulty at all, which is quite odd and a shame as most of these gamers are of a younger generation.

[ptoing]

I am not a JRPG player, but I know many people who are, and actually if you know what you are doing there is not much luck involved when fighting bosses. But it is more about knowing stuff that works, knowing the system, than skill. But yes, if you just blindly try to clobber bosses without knowing what they are weak against or such, they might seem hard, because a lot of luck is involved if you do it that way.

[Sumez]

Im not a really a 2D Fighters gamer but Ild imagine if Street Fighter 5 had random damage or some other shitty random thing, it would never be played in tournaments since any serious competion needs to be fair. I see shmups as just the same thing only your competing against the game, highscores etc.

You could have random stuff in a fighter as long as each fighter benefits or suffers equally from the random object, but that can be hard to balance, and would be even harder in a shooter.

There's a popular example of this, many of the Samurai Shodown games occasionally throw life-up items unto the stage. This is not that bad in theory, since both players are able to pick it up, but some times it'll simply be thrown right into the spot where one player is already standing, giving him an unfair advantage.
(I'll bear with it though, as the Samurai Shodown games are so awesome, and due to the workings of the game, this stroke of luck is hardly gonna help someone who's losing anyway)

[doctorx0079]

This just reminds me of the endless debates about Super Smash Bros. games on SRK and elsewhere. It appears that SSB games are no longer an official part of EVO and that's probably just as well. When you have to disable half the game to make it fair, there's something wrong there.

[RNGmaster]

The wierd thing is, is that many ppl percieve luck gameplay with a low chance of success as been hard difficulty. Just look at all the JRPGs that are in 10 hardest bosses / games ever vids on You Tube. They dont seem to diffirenciate between luck and skilled based difficulty at all, which is quite odd and a shame as most of these gamers are of a younger generation.

This is not to say that JRPGs don't have bosses that require critical thinking - which is to say, most bosses in SMT: Nocturne, as well as the extra boss in Digital Devil Saga.

[Drum]

People should maybe start using 'procedural' for random. Tho I guess that term has its own problems too.
TrevHead brought up fighting games as a counterpoint to random damage. I sorta don't think random damage needs a counterpoint, because (without some sorta counterweight) it is silly - random damage is a useful abstraction in very complex games with many elements, but not so much in shmups, which tend to be all abstract and pretty simple. I am speaking generally.
But! the fighting game example is still useful to illustrate a problem with the genre: in competitive play, fighting games do have a semi-random component: the other player. So gameplay is all about predicting and being unpredictable, so the real core of the gameplay is mastering the system. In shmups without a random component, you are essentially grinding (unless you win it first time, in which case it's too easy). Naturally it's still a test of skill and naturally you will get better and better as you play, but it's not always easy to tell what it is you're getting better at - are you getting better at memorising retarded bullshit, or have you come to understand the system? How much in each column? How can you tell?

That is why a structured random component is really awesome - gameplay becomes more fully about strategy and mastering the system. I guess it seems counter-intuitive, but only superficially.
That said, there should be a list of commandments for procedurally generated shmups because it is an easy thing to screw up. Like, unwinnable states are a no-no, varying potential high scores per playthrough due to randomness is a no-no, too-easy situations are a no-no. And you need a variety of tactics to deal with situations the designers might not have even planned for, so a good mix of desperation tactics and the ability to set up situations that suit you. Mars Matrix/Gigawing would work well procedurally.

Procedural generation with a good rank system and a Zanac/Left4Dead 'director' system would be aces. If the genre has a future at all, it's that. Right now it is catering too much to the OCD crowd, and is missing out on the ADD market. Those guys are loaded, I hear tell.

rocketassistedkea: Sorry to come down like a ton of bricks on your random damage idea, I think that sort of thing has a lot of potential!

[rocketassistedkea]

Heya;0) Good to see you back Drum.

[Sigh]; seems I might never see Far-Cry 3, with rusty weapons...as not enough people seemed to like it in the last one. I thought it was the best part of the game!
And IL-2...Ooo. They left out crashes [criminally] for the consoles, but without damage...it'd have to be considered broken. I can [just] forgive the crashes, as what's there...is so good.

The problem with making damage-specific [not random], in a shmup...is because of that tiny hit-box.....maybe you could have being hit from the front, sides and rear of your 'square' corresponding to different damage.....hard to really be deep about it, though. There's so little to key off of.

In truth...I'm the kind of guy who prefers one-hit player kills too. But Xexex proved to me; that you could have a shield AND a hard-core shump, wrapped up together in bed.
One future with shmups...could be in giving every-bullet in a bullet-hell; it's own physics. That way, you could interact with them, say, with a slow-working repulser-type shield...so if you rush into a bullet, you'll still die, otherwise; you could gradually send the bullets drifting different ways, killing enemies as they go. Your energy-absorbant shields could also take a real battering with each hit@ least [like Xexex]...though I'd personally leap for joy, if you could at least select random damage. True, would be no good for those who play for score, or wish to compete with other humans...But I remember how fun Star Raiders was [strictly one-player]. That game obsessed me for years. Even with potentially powerful shields...you dared not get hit, and flinched when you did-wondering what just broke.

Damage...how to do it? Even in games where it's simplified to the point of almost irrelevance, such as Battle Stations Midway/Pacific....damage control, added at least something to gameplay. Another layer.

If games are going to be VR, say; a shmup playing off the real-geometry you're looking at [i.e, your grandma talking, with bullets spewing from her mouth, as you shoot her-dodging the living-room landscape]...then something procedural, will have to be attempted. Rank, procedural [and rules], AI director...good ideas Drum;0)
Wouldn't have to be completely random...you'd still have bullet generators, e.t.c.
I soon tire of games that are scripted too heavily...as I'm sure, do most. On a side-note, even a few aimed bullets-in a bullet-hell; can really complicate your life! But I think I'm drifting off into the realm of tangents again...

One final thing. One day, once the tech's freely on the market, and no longer such a big deal; destructive environments-like that in Red Faction Guerilla; will be the norm...that will be a chance for shmups to reign again, with the most spectacular graphics it's possible to get in a game. No fps would be able to compare. I mean...imagine if all the buildings etc crumbled realistically in gradius, or if you could blast your way through the guts of a star-cruiser [or a fleet of them, with infinate up-down scrolling in, in a hori]...maybe with some ultimately indestructible chunks that slowly bounce around, so there's still something environmental to dodge. Put that in 3d on consoles/computers, with VR shmups [procedural] for vr glasses...and shmups could once again be a dominant genre, on all platforms [they're no.1@ the mo on Iphone, a nice little niche they've found for themselves.]

Z

[DocHauser]

[quote="Drum"] Procedural generation with a good rank system and a Zanac/Left4Dead 'director' system would be aces. If the genre has a future at all, it's that.[quote]

I think the procedural generation + good rank system is definitely better than the random damage idea. Here's an idea for a game, slightly taken from Raiden Fighters Jet. In RFJ, you're moved to different 'simulation' levels depending on your performance in the previous level until eventually you reach the 'real mission phase'.

So, my idea is based on a scenario where each level is a different stage in a war. The rank is managed by how you perform in each level.

LOW RANK - missing smaller enemies, losing chains, dying, etc.

HIGH RANK - high kill %, not dying, etc.

If you're doing well, then that increases your standing in your army and you become a sort of 'Red Baron' of the war. The enemy responds by sending larger, tougher ships/enemies to defeat you in later levels. The larger enemies could be killed to increase the multiplier and boost your score, so the better you do, the more opportunity you have for scoring.

If you're not doing so well, then you're basically just another grunt in the war and you mostly see smaller enemies during later levels, with maybe one or two mid-bosses. But, because your kill % was low in early levels that means you let a lot of smaller enemies live. These guys haven't left the war, so they're used as reinforcements in later levels. Because there are more enemies, this gives you a chance to get a few chains going and increase the rank again.

The enemy formations and bullet-patterns could be modifed depending on your rank, so that each level is subtly different each time you play.

The idea could probably do with a bit more work, but that's just off the top of my head.

[rocketassistedkea]

I'm a huge fan of rank! Often, I play a game, barely firing a shot...maybe that's how you keep the rank down. I do that; to increase the challenge-in games that aren't danmaku {I did that in DOJ, no need though, if it's the second-loop...just getting bored with the first-loop].
Start causing destruction; and before the end of the level, you have a huge fleet facing you at the other end of the screen, before you get to the boss; and it's turned into a dia ou jou second-loop bullet-hell!
With a repulser shield, so you can send flak back at your enemies...
Of course, you could choose how sensitive the rank is at the start...thus scaring no one away. Maybe the flak you repulse, could become explosive [or even penetrate through enemies, exploding behind them/in their midst...lots of ways to mess with bullets], thus causing more mayhem.
Some kind of shield, and energy-management...would give you a big enough advantage, to make any bullet-hell survivable. Of course, if you're brave enough...select random damage through your shields [if it gets overloaded with flak, and changes colour...used for more than 1/2 second/s, or whathaveyou]... Madness.
Procedurally generated nymphomaniacloliprepubescenthermaphroditefairys...that if you collect....turns it into a Super-Mario bounce-em up.

Z

[TrevHead (TVR)]

Heres a vid from the escapist site. Its a small lecture about the future of video gaming, he paints a very nice picture. Any thoughts on it?

http://www.escapistmagazine.com/videos/ ... -Florentis

(ive only just descovered this video series, imo its quite good Like this vid im watching atm on game music http://www.escapistmagazine.com/videos/ ... game-Music

[Never_Scurred]

Heres a vid from the escapist site. Its a small lecture about the future of video gaming, he paints a very nice picture. Any thoughts on it?

http://www.escapistmagazine.com/videos/ ... -Florentis

(ive only just descovered this video series, imo its quite good Like this vid im watching atm on game music http://www.escapistmagazine.com/videos/ ... game-Music

[Siren2011]

If CAVE goes under, there might be a few failed attempts at making a masterpiece from clueless devs before everyone forgets the genre entirely because it isn't "profitable." We live in a sick, greedy world.

I haven't played Akai Katana (I want to, though.), but I have little to no doubt in my mind that before the company closes it's doors, they will make one last excellent game for their faithful followers. And maybe I'm too cynical. Who really knows for sure what will happen? Maybe in its ashes another company will emerge with Ikeda-san and friends, like Toaplan.

[Sumez]

Heres a vid from the escapist site. Its a small lecture about the future of video gaming, he paints a very nice picture. Any thoughts on it?

http://www.escapistmagazine.com/videos/ ... -Florentis

Lots of good arguments there, but he's extremely optimistic - a lot of the stuff that he sees through rose tinted glasses is stuff that in my optics ruins as much of the existing industry as it creates new potential.

[harrihaffi]

Random damage...how about random weather? When it snows you ships gets heavier and heavier and keeps pulling more and more down wards. When it rains, the ship stars to malfunction every 40th sec and you have to spam the forward button to reboot. In high tempetur bullets would be even biger than usual or grow. In cold everything would start to slow down. In a thunderstorm enemies thunder would strike down and destroy every thing bellow(with some kind of warning before). In fog or mist You can see anything and would have to relay fully at your memories of how to play the level(in other words you much play this level once without the fog to succed) When the wind blows hard you bullets would slow down and the return, forcing you to dodge you're own bullets(if it blows your way) And some stages could have diffrent kind of plants (backgrounds/design) depending on what kind of weather there has been throu the game.
And if you don't want random weather you can equip you ship with an anti-weather-thingy! or if you just don't want to deal with diffrent weater but still wanna see it's effects: Anit-weather-shield creating a little bubble of safty around you...giving little sight in fog or mist...and completly protecting you from the other affects of the weather...or maybe you could equip all these and the activate them when ever you want to.

MVHH

[Sumez]

That stuff would still remove the balanced competitive element from the genre entirely.

Even then, I think you do have a few fun ideas among the ones you mentioned. They just can't be random.