Cinemateq Picture Optimizer - are they any good?

[fagin]

Just bagged one off Ebay for just over £50.

Will this be better than a HDBOXPRO?

I'm starting to have scalers coming out of my ears at the moment!

[Fudoh]

They're good, yes. I've tested the PO2+ on my website - just read up on it. The PO is basically the same machine just without the scaling (480/576p output only).

[fagin]

They're good, yes. I've tested the PO2+ on my website - just read up on it. The PO is basically the same machine just without the scaling (480/576p output only).

Well... it was you that mentioned this to me on another thread and lo and behold, one was for auction on Ebay. lol

I have looked on your site but I was not sure how that model differed from the one I have just won the auction for.

Is it leagues ahead of the HDBOXPRO chipset for 640x480 output?

[Fudoh]

Is it leagues ahead of the HDBOXPRO chipset for 640x480 output?

yes, definitely. It isn't as much plug'n play, since you have a lot of tuning possibilites (which you should use), but once setup, the picture quality should be very nice. BTW: don't use 640x480 output, but use 480p (720x480p) if your display allows it.

[fagin]

OK.... I received my Cinemateq Picture Optimizer on Friday and have been playing with it ever since, to see what it was capable of doing.

The unit cost me a little over £50 off eBay, so I thought "If it's gash then I don't care".

In reality the unit is good!

It handles 480i and 240p and seems (from my limited experience) to do a good job on line doubling. You can also choose various resolution outputs and it has plenty of filter options. 30hz shadows etc in games like Espgaluda look perfect to me in 240p tate mode (I have not tried this test in 480i mode).

The only comparison I have is the CGA to VGA scaler and it certainly displays a better image. Whilst a SLG3000 is attached the difference is less noticeable.

The major sticking point for me is the fact that the VGA sync polarity output from this, means that the SLG3000 won't function correctly in 640x480 mode (I have to use 800x600 which means the scanlines on 240p or 480i material are not correct). I also nearly tossed it out of the window today, when I discovered none of my real retro consoles, like PCE, SNES, NEOGEO, PCE etc would sync correctly. I then discovered that none of these SCART RGB connectors had the blanking ground connected..... easy fix and all is great now! lol

All in all a good unit and certainly worth picking up if you find cheap enough on eBay.

[Fudoh]

I think to remember that changing the sync polarity with a simple circuit was actually very easy. I'll try to look into this when I find the time.

[fagin]

I think to remember that changing the sync polarity with a simple circuit was actually very easy. I'll try to look into this when I find the time.

I would be grateful if you could find something.... I have been searching high and low on the internet today and can't find a thing about how to build such a circuit.

[Fudoh]

I'll look into it, but google's 1st hit shows this: http://www.twobits.com/sync.html

[fagin]

lol - The first link!!!

What were you putting in to Google.

Just gonna pop out and buy two of these..... will report back on progress (hopeful) tonight.

Thanks!

[Fudoh]

something like VGA sync inverter or polarity inverter....

[Fudoh]

I talked to a buddy today and he confirmed that this should work fine. You don't have to stick to the LS version of the chip, but you can use the HC version (which should be available even easier). Also every hex inverter has six channels, so you can easily built a +/+, -/-, +/-, -/+ board using a single IC and two switches.

Let me know how it goes!

[fagin]

What a flaming emotional exercise this has been!!!

This all started off by the fact that I bought the CPO and wanted to use the line doubling feature to use with my 240p and 480i games etc. As soon as I got it I plugged it all in and chose the "LINE DOUBLING" resolution. With the SLG3000 connected and the DIP SWITCH settings of ON ON ON OFF ON (which is the setting I use for the CGA to VGA scaler), the screen was dark. I then changed the DIP SWITCHES to ON ON ON OFF OFF and I had banding. If I kept the DIPS to this last setting and set the RES output to SVGA, the scanline effect was fine.... but there were too many scanlines (obviously). What was ******* me off was the fact that the CGA to VGA convertor worked fine in 640x480 mode with the SLG..... however the CPO gave a slightly sharper picture.

I then remembered that Fudoh had commented on the SLG thread that the reason for the dark image was down to the sync polarity. Unfortunately you are unable to change this within the usermenu of the CPO. The CPO was nearing the open window.

Fudoh then pointed me to a sync polarity inverter.... so I gave that a go last night. Perhaps the CPO was going to be saved a miserable death!

I switched the output of the CPO to RGBs, so I didn't have to invert the hori and vert sync.... I'm a lazy arse. Unfortunately it did not work and the SLG3000 was not getting any power (which uses the sync). I then tried both syncs and turned the output to RGBHV again... still no picture. Whatever this chip was doing... it wasn't doing what it was supposed to!

After all this messing around it was about 11pm last night and I was about to admit defeat. I looked at the LINE DOUBLE resolution setting on the CPO and noticed it was set to 1440 x 640. It made logical sense to me that the SLG was heavily reliant on resolutions and I could not understand why the LINE DOUBLING res, thought it was to double an effective 720x320 resolution. Luckily the CPO let's you define any custom resolution up to 1360x768 (HD Res). I was not familiar with the parameters you need to set (as it's not just an easy task of just setting the resolution), but I started to have a play. It is probably worth saying at this point, that no pre-defined 640x480 resolution was selectable. I finally managed to set a 640x480 resolution that had a stable synced and was being reported as 640x480 by my monitor. You would not believe how many things I had to try to do that... the monitor would not shift to 640x480 until I got all parameters right. At one point I had 848x480 reported by the monitor, even though the base resolution setting in CPO was 640x480!

Lo and behold with this resolution I had the SLG3000 producing pixel perfect scanlines (ON ON ON OFF OFF - don't ask me why as I thought this was 600p mode) with a nice sharp (sharper than the CGA to VGA scaler anyhow) image, through a 1080p LCD monitor.

I tried the PS2 first and fired up a mix of 240p and 480i games. All running really well. Espgaluda works perfectly in both 240p and 480i mode, with correct shadows etc. Infact ESP looks flaming mint in 240p through the CPO and SLG3000.... as close as I think I could get against my arcade CRT. The image is unreal!

I then tried my SNES...... picture was gash with a real dark image (even with the SLG disconnected). More problems. I tried my Saturn and NEOGEO and then gave up.... all the same. Before starting to cry I stripped the SNES SCART plug down and noticed it had no BLANKING GROUND connected. I bridged that and tried again.... sorted!!! Great picture and pixel perfect scanlines. The problem was the same with both the Saturn and NEOGEO (all sorted now). More consoles to check.... but will do that when I feel a bit stronger. lol

So.... after all the gas I finally have the CPO working properly with the SLG, producing pixel perfect scanlines of the CPO at 640x480.

It was certainly worth it as the image certainly does look better, against that of the CGA to VGA scaler.

So what can I buy next that does a better job than the CPO for the type of things I need (i.e. 240p & 480i going through a SLG)?!

[Fudoh]

Sorry to hear about the non-working polarity inverter, but glad to hear that the CPO's custom res setting helped out in the end.

The next better upconverters are the XRGB and the DVDO Edge. The XRGB excels with a considerably sharper 240p image and zero lag, while the Edge combines very low lag with the best 480i picture you'll find. The Edge doesn't have VGA out though, so you need a another converter which adds to the cost.

As long as you don't want to invest $400+, you very likely best off in keeping the CPO.

[fagin]

Sorry to hear about the non-working polarity inverter, but glad to hear that the CPO's custom res setting helped out in the end.

The next better upconverters are the XRGB and the DVDO Edge. The XRGB excels with a considerably sharper 240p image and zero lag, while the Edge combines very low lag with the best 480i picture you'll find. The Edge doesn't have VGA out though, so you need a another converter which adds to the cost.

As long as you don't want to invest $400+, you very likely best off in keeping the CPO.

Foremost thanks for your ongoing help and advice! It's much appreciated.

Yep... understand about the XRGB, as it can be clearly seen by the information you have on your website that this is the clear 240p winner! Unfortunately many say it's useless at 480i.

I must admit that the SLG connected to the CPO clears up any ringing (which it does have). The only issue I have (in reality now) is the clarity in horizontal sections of the image field, across the width of the screen (this can be altered by changing the length of hsync and vsync lines on the CPO - whatever that actually means and does! lol). Is this where the SLG is not in total sync with the resolution that is effectively being used by the CPO to upscale from the source. To get this absolutely cock-on, would I have to alter the resolution to the double of what the actual console would natively display at and is this specific for each console and/or game video mode, or is there an easier way to do this?

Not sure if I am missing a trick.

[Fudoh]

Analogue signals only have a vertical resolution. The horizontal resolution isn't given in pixels. It's bandwith question. I mentioned this somewhere before, but I would eventually try to get an output of 720x480p and not 640x480. At least all the 480i sources you've got internally use a 720-column resolution internally.

Isn't 480p available as an preset output resolution (not to be confused with VGA).

I'm not sure if I 100% understand your problem. Example: if you linedouble a 224 line signal (e.g. from a SNES), the carrier is still a 240p/480i signal, so the CPO should upscale the signal with a black border (16 pixels on the source, 32 pixels on the 480p output). If the SLG doesn't 100% match the pixels (but we're talking vertical resolution now), it usually means that the processor applies overscan (zoom). Is this completely disabled ?

PS: This is were a digicam shot would be REALLY helpful

[fagin]

Analogue signals only have a vertical resolution. The horizontal resolution isn't given in pixels. It's bandwith question. I mentioned this somewhere before, but I would eventually try to get an output of 720x480p and not 640x480. At least all the 480i sources you've got internally use a 720-column resolution internally.

Isn't 480p available as an preset output resolution (not to be confused with VGA).

I'm not sure if I 100% understand your problem. Example: if you linedouble a 224 line signal (e.g. from a SNES), the carrier is still a 240p/480i signal, so the CPO should upscale the signal with a black border (16 pixels on the source, 32 pixels on the 480p output). If the SLG doesn't 100% match the pixels (but we're talking vertical resolution now), it usually means that the processor applies overscan (zoom). Is this completely disabled ?

PS: This is were a digicam shot would be REALLY helpful

My bad regarding the "length of hsync lines" terminology.... it is in fact "Length of the horizontal sync impulse".

These are the values I have to set to create a custom resolution:

H Total (Number of pixels per line (outside framing))
H Start (Horizontal starting point of the picture)
H Active (Active width of the visible picture)
H Sync (Length of the horizontal sync impluse)
V Total (Number of pixels per line (outside framing))
V Start (Vertical starting point of the picture)
V Active (Active height of the visible picture)
V Sync (Length of the vertical sync impluse)

Any suggestions on what I would set this all to? lol

The only 480p output resolution is that of the standard "Line Doubling" setting, which is infact 1440x480. However with the SLG connected I either have "what looks like an interlaced image", or a dark picture, or a flashing image.

Overscan can and has been turned off.

Basically I currently have a band of some hori lines that seem "blurred" with the SLG connected. I can vary this blurred horizontal section (hori up and down the screen), by altering the sync settings above, but have yet to get rid of it completely. I.E. If we take Graduis III on the SNES. If I look at the weapon choice screen, most lines are pin sharp (with the SLG) but a specific horizontal block is not so sharp and looks effectively blurred.

Not at home at the moment (to take any images), but does this help to explain a bit better.

[Fudoh]

You can find all the VESA timings online, e.g. here's the one for VGA (640x480):

"VGA industry standard" 640x480 pixel mode

General characteristics

Clock frequency 25.175 MHz
Line frequency 31469 Hz
Field frequency 59.94 Hz

One line

8 pixels front porch
96 pixels horizontal sync
40 pixels back porch
8 pixels left border
640 pixels video
8 pixels right border
---
800 pixels total per line

One field

2 lines front porch
2 lines vertical sync
25 lines back porch
8 lines top border
480 lines video
8 lines bottom border
---
525 lines total per field

so, don't worry about the H total and the V total exceeding the actual resolution. The H active and V active settings are the important parts.

[ZOM]

I'm glad you guys aren't keeping this info to PM-only; following the thread somewhat and it's fairly interesting.
The CPO seems like an interesting device loaded with a good bunch of tweaking-options. I like options

About the "blurred horizontal blocks" fagin, if you load a tile-based game(a JRPG for example), does it look like every odd horizontal-tiles are blurred, but the even ones are nicely sharp, giving a scrolling-blinds kind of effect while scrolling/walking around with player character?
I experienced this on a random basis with the PCE hooked to a fli2200 and/or 2300. I still didn't find the cause - it's bugging me because the tiles inbetween the blurred ones are perfectly sharp and look great.

[fagin]

You can find all the VESA timings online, e.g. here's the one for VGA (640x480):

"VGA industry standard" 640x480 pixel mode

General characteristics

Clock frequency 25.175 MHz
Line frequency 31469 Hz
Field frequency 59.94 Hz

One line

8 pixels front porch
96 pixels horizontal sync
40 pixels back porch
8 pixels left border
640 pixels video
8 pixels right border
---
800 pixels total per line

One field

2 lines front porch
2 lines vertical sync
25 lines back porch
8 lines top border
480 lines video
8 lines bottom border
---
525 lines total per field

so, don't worry about the H total and the V total exceeding the actual resolution. The H active and V active settings are the important parts.

Yes... seen all that before but I had no factual confirmation what everything meant and how it tied up with the variables required for CPO. I *think* I have deduced what is what now.... will give it a go tonight.

[fagin]

I'm glad you guys aren't keeping this info to PM-only; following the thread somewhat and it's fairly interesting.
The CPO seems like an interesting device loaded with a good bunch of tweaking-options. I like options

About the "blurred horizontal blocks" fagin, if you load a tile-based game(a JRPG for example), does it look like every odd horizontal-tiles are blurred, but the even ones are nicely sharp, giving a scrolling-blinds kind of effect while scrolling/walking around with player character?
I experienced this on a random basis with the PCE hooked to a fli2200 and/or 2300. I still didn't find the cause - it's bugging me because the tiles inbetween the blurred ones are perfectly sharp and look great.

Sort of mate.... the blurred area will go from left to right edge of frame for a specific block of horizontal lines. It's like the focus is out for that specific hori block. Above that specific horizontal area it is pin sharp and below is pin sharp.

For example:

---------------------------------------- Top of video frame
all this section may be pin sharp

====================== Start of blurred area
this area will widen or narrow and move up or down, dependant on the hsync & vsync pulse values
====================== End of blurred area

all this section may be pin sharp
---------------------------------------- Bottom of video frame

[fagin]

Found an on-line calculator to work out all the timings for any given resolution and tried these timings against the custom resolution function. Unfortunately I have the same problem with a resolution for 720x480 as I do for the original Line Doubling function. i.e. If I set the SLG to 480p mode I get a dim picture, or if I set it to 600p mode I get an interlaced picture. lol

Piece of crap!

I think I need to re-visit this polarity invertor..... but christ knows why the previous attempt did not work.

From what I know 480p should be NEG for both HSYNC and VSYNC. If this is the case then the CPO is not doing this, as the SLG will not function correctly after the CPO at this res.

Now, SVGA from the CPO (800x600) works fine through the SLG when using the correct 600p dip setting. SVGA (60hz) should be POS for both HSYNC VSYNC, so I understand why the dips need to be moved on the SLG.

Question is what the hell have I got coming out of the CPO in Line Doubling mode? Is it HSYNC & VSYNC at POS (even though the res is 480p) or is one of the sync's NEG and the other POS and which one?

[Fudoh]

Does it really matter what polarity you currently get on 480p ? Fact is the SLG3000 should work once you invert one of the two sync signals. I've never tried to remember which sync polarity would be best. The standard sync timings of my DVDO won't work with the SLG either, but here I can switch the polarity in the processor's menu.

Which ICs did you get ? Using a single channel of a hex inverter seems fairly easy. GND, 5V, Input, Output. It shouldn't matter if you feed positive or negative sync, the output will just be inverted.

[fagin]

Does it really matter what polarity you currently get on 480p ? Fact is the SLG3000 should work once you invert one of the two sync signals. I've never tried to remember which sync polarity would be best. The standard sync timings of my DVDO won't work with the SLG either, but here I can switch the polarity in the processor's menu.

Which ICs did you get ? Using a single channel of a hex inverter seems fairly easy. GND, 5V, Input, Output. It shouldn't matter if you feed positive or negative sync, the output will just be inverted.

I used a 74LS04N. You're right the circuit is so simple a two year old could get it right..... but it still didn't work! I tried inverting each sync separately and then tried both syncs..... absolutely no picture on any combination.

IIRC it is hsync that the SLG seems to get the power from.

[Fudoh]

When you say absolutely no picture you mean through the SLG, right ? Do you get a picture when you run through the inverter and into your display directly ?

[fagin]

Cant remember mate. Will try again tonight and let you know.

It certainly gives no picture through slg, but not sure if I tried it direct which has just given me another thought!!!

[fagin]

I have tested EVERY combination conceivable to man!!

Even tried another chip and PSU for the chip..... no joy.

I get no monitor signal at all with the sync polarity inverter shown in this thread, with or without the SLG, whether the output from the CPO is RGBs or RGBHV.

I'm really at a loss.... but whatever the chip is doing it aint switching the polarity OR the polarity is not the issue.

[fagin]

Just done a bit of research on the chip that:

It *appears* that the 74HC04 is infact a high-speed CMOS and from what I can work out, the 74LS04 is not?!?!? Perhaps I am wrong in that finding.

I have the 74LS04.

I did see another discussion saying that you must use a *really* fast CMOS HEX inverter.

Worth a go?

[Fudoh]

Well, my local console-modder over here told me the HC first. After I asked about the LS version he that it should work as well (but he only used HC chips so far). From the diagramm I linked above it's possible that the LS is for 15kh signals.

If haven't already grown grey hairs from this and if it's not too expensive I would give a try with a HC version of the chip.

[fagin]

Well, my local console-modder over here told me the HC first. After I asked about the LS version he that it should work as well (but he only used HC chips so far). From the diagramm I linked above it's possible that the LS is for 15kh signals.

If haven't already grown grey hairs from this and if it's not too expensive I would give a try with a HC version of the chip.

Well I had grey hairs already so in for a penny in for a pound!!!

Will get hold of a HC chip and give this one last go.

[fagin]

If I EVER have to go through that ordeal again, someone else will have to give up their own life!!!!!

I can't begin to think about how many hours this has consumed..... for something that should of been so straight forward!

I tried the HC chip (Texas Instruments) last night. With every combination and no luck. I had got to the point that I thought I had goosed the chip after trying several different psu's. Although with the HC I was at least getting an image, although it was the same problem as it was without the chip..... but at least these HC chips did more for me than the LC's did. I went out this morning and bought another two 74HC04's. These were a different make (Philips) than the first one though, but the same version.

Got home and tried the cycle of various tests...... for a very very brief moment it flaming worked (i.e. line doubled picture and scanlines with SLG in 480p mode)!! I couldn't believe it, but the picture was very unstable, to the point of touching the chip caused the picture to drop out. Something was obiously not right and then the picture just went off and I could not get it back again. So I progressed to putting the 3rd (2nd from this batch) HC in, as I thought I had goosed the 2nd one. Nothing at all again. Damn!!!!

I swapped PSU's in and out as I thought the PSU may of caused the instability issues..... still nothing! Since all the soldering looked "tight" I assumed I had goosed another chip! lol

Maplin's obviously don't carry much stick of these 74HC's as I had already cleared out two stores stock levels. This was going to be my last ditch attempt and I thought as it had worked for a brief moment, something must be amiss and hopefully I could sort it. Off I went back out to another Maplin's store (this is the 3rd store in the area) and got another two 74HC's. Again taking all their stock! lol These 74HC's were the same make (Texas Instruments) as the 1st one I bought, which was different to the 2nd batch I bought earlier in the day. I also decided to buy another chip mount and decided to re-wire the whole lot all over again. I even bought a ground wrist strap! I have NEVER needed to use one of these, but anything was up for grabs now.... perhaps I was static charging the chip when I was handling it.

I got home and re-wired everything again and installed one of the new 74HC's..... still nothing!!!!!

I was seriously pissed off at this point.

For whatever reason I decided to disconnet the PSU to the 74HC and I was messing around with the settings on CPO. I changed the output signal from RGBHV to RGBs and the screen jumped in to life. Because of this I quickly rammed the SLG in-line.... lo and behold it gave scanlines in 480p dip setting, with the CPO outputting a line doubled resolution. Obviously these TI chips work differently to the Philips ones, which don't make sense. The bonus is these TI chips don't need a power feed. Picture was stable.

The line doubled image from the CPO is sharper than using a custom resolution set at 640x480. It still has a *slight* halo effect, but the line doubling res has reduced that down to a minimal level. It really does look very nice even without the SLG..... but with the SLG in-line it looks flaming great. So much better than the CGA to VGA convertor, when the CPO is in line doubling mode. Hooked up various consoles and the picture is very nice and the image with scanlines on SNES etc are bang on. None of the blurred banding I had before in custom res mode.

I'm chuffted to bits with this CPO now, as it delivers exactly what I wanted...... and for only just over £50 off ebay and a shedload of hours!!

Fudoh - Many thanks for your help.