What will shmups be like in 10 years from now?

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MR_Soren
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Re: What will shmups be like in 10 years from now?

Post by MR_Soren »

Drum wrote:
MR_Soren wrote:
Obiwanshinobi wrote:Halo and its descendants, on the contrary, just keep trying to do something joypads are not terribly good at. Yes, you can , to an extent, recreate m&kb controls with a joypad, but to make your game even mildly enjoyable and accessible you have to make the pacing slow, the aiming more or less blatantly aided and so on and so on, ending up miles away from a twitchy, blazing fast action of Quake.
I've tried, on numerous occasions, to explain how much more fun it was playing Quake on a computer than it is playing Halo on a console. Nobody gets it. The controls, the speed, the smoothness, the flow of the maps. Way better than any console FPS I've ever played. So, when I'm begrudgingly playing Halo and people are talking about how AWESOME it is, I'll try to be diplomatic. "Yeah... it's kinda like Quake... from way back in the 90s... if Quake was really slow, had a dumb armor system, boring maps, and awful analog joystick controls, but I guess I have to cut them some slack because this is on a console...
There are many cool things about Quake and plenty of problems with Halo, but Halo murders Quake in terms of core game mechanics. It's like comparing Darius II with Gradius II. Shame about the speed and stuff tho. Actually, Halo would probably make a better shmup than a FPS.
I'm talking about Quake 1-3, not specifically the first Quake, and I disagree.

I don't see Halo's core mechanics being significantly different from Quake. Run around. Grab weapons. Shoot people. Try to stay alive. Same core mechanics, but different design decisions. Halo just happened to make design decisions I do not like. Vehicles, armor, map designs, etc.
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Re: What will shmups be like in 10 years from now?

Post by dunpeal2064 »

Drum wrote:
MR_Soren wrote:
Obiwanshinobi wrote:Halo and its descendants, on the contrary, just keep trying to do something joypads are not terribly good at. Yes, you can , to an extent, recreate m&kb controls with a joypad, but to make your game even mildly enjoyable and accessible you have to make the pacing slow, the aiming more or less blatantly aided and so on and so on, ending up miles away from a twitchy, blazing fast action of Quake.
I've tried, on numerous occasions, to explain how much more fun it was playing Quake on a computer than it is playing Halo on a console. Nobody gets it. The controls, the speed, the smoothness, the flow of the maps. Way better than any console FPS I've ever played. So, when I'm begrudgingly playing Halo and people are talking about how AWESOME it is, I'll try to be diplomatic. "Yeah... it's kinda like Quake... from way back in the 90s... if Quake was really slow, had a dumb armor system, boring maps, and awful analog joystick controls, but I guess I have to cut them some slack because this is on a console...
There are many cool things about Quake and plenty of problems with Halo, but Halo murders Quake in terms of core game mechanics. It's like comparing Darius II with Gradius II. Shame about the speed and stuff tho. Actually, Halo would probably make a better shmup than a FPS.
Also, Quake was great, but only pc gamers already willing to play this kind of game really got into it. It was pretty big, but not genre-breaking. It more appealed to the hardcore gamer at the time. Halo, however, made this genre accessable to the common person. All of a sudden everyone at my school, even the non-gamers, were talking about Halo, and especially Halo 2. Considering the topis, I think a lot more should be taken from what Halo did than what Quake did. No matter how you compare the games, Halo was drastically more successfull in making fps what they currently are, the most popular genre of all (at least from what I have seen here in the states)
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Re: What will shmups be like in 10 years from now?

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Re: What will shmups be like in 10 years from now?

Post by TVG »

Also, Quake was great, but only pc gamers already willing to play this kind of game really got into it. It was pretty big, but not genre-breaking. It more appealed to the hardcore gamer at the time. Halo, however, made this genre accessable to the common person. All of a sudden everyone at my school, even the non-gamers, were talking about Halo, and especially Halo 2. Considering the topis, I think a lot more should be taken from what Halo did than what Quake did. No matter how you compare the games, Halo was drastically more successfull in making fps what they currently are, the most popular genre of all (at least from what I have seen here in the states)
Could you fucking possibly be more wrong?
Wait, I was angry at first but then I remembered the old "halo invented FPS" line.
Fuck, you got me.
Last edited by TVG on Wed Jan 26, 2011 7:23 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: What will shmups be like in 10 years from now?

Post by Obiwanshinobi »

In countries where PC gaming is better established than console gaming (Eastern Europe, South Korea), first person shooters have been VERY mainstream for as long as they exist. When Mortal Kombat was the shit, Doom was just as big and so on. Of course those very markets being rampantly plagued by piracy, they don't have that much impact on sales.
If there is one feature of shmups I'd like to see implemented in three-dimensional gaming, it's autoscrolling (don't know any 3D equivalent of the term). The likes of Panzer Dragoon, Rez and Rainbow Cotton tried to follow this path, but remained curiostities rather than trendsetters. How cool Chelnov/Atomic Runner could be as a 3D game? Sin & Punishment games are not quite up there in the acrobatics department, but you get the picture. Some of the autoscrolling bits of Rayman 2 and 3 are memorable to say the least.
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Re: What will shmups be like in 10 years from now?

Post by Blackbird »

It is interesting that you should say that, Obiwan. Most people I've talked to seem to hate autoscrolling segments in games that have them.

You might consider checking out Donkey Kong Country Returns. Okay, it's only nominally 3D, and only a few levels are autoscrolling, but it's the closest thing I can think of to what you're getting at.
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Re: What will shmups be like in 10 years from now?

Post by Drum »

MR_Soren wrote:I'm talking about Quake 1-3, not specifically the first Quake, and I disagree.

I don't see Halo's core mechanics being significantly different from Quake. Run around. Grab weapons. Shoot people. Try to stay alive. Same core mechanics, but different design decisions. Halo just happened to make design decisions I do not like. Vehicles, armor, map designs, etc.
Well obviously they're both FPSs, but the Quake games are super by-the-numbers. Quake I was fun enough even if it was basically Doom with way less enemies. Quake II was a big, boring misstep and Quake III sucked compared to Unreal Tournament (but then, so does Halo kekeke). Halo has more tactical sandboxy gameplay with varied enemy types that create interesting combat scenarios and lots of fun stuff like sticky nades. Also, I like the shield system. Made a nice change from standard health/armour and really mixed the gameplay up. It's simple fun with interesting decisions to be made - Quake I & II had less interesting gameplay than Gauntlet. Quake played nice and quick (sorta) but that's about it.
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Re: What will shmups be like in 10 years from now?

Post by Hair »

Analog controls might become more common. I am a big fan of using a square gate joystick, or a d-pad, but I have had some great gaming experiences using an analog stick on a shmup. Controlling the ship speed is diffilcult, and I mainly resort to digital-style taptaptap methods to move slowly rather than using the analog sensitivity, but I like being able to move in 360 directions instead of 8. I think bullet patterns could be designed to take more advantage of the analog movement, and a wider range will improve ship speed control.

Analog buttons could be cool for controlling rate of fire, or type of weapon, such as Mars Matrix having 4 weapons mapped to one button differentiated by tapping speed.

An arcade stick with analog buttons and an analog joystick (with games designed around it) would be sweet.

In the future touch controls and body motion controls might play a part in shmups, but right now they suck.

I think level select, a wide difficulty selection, in-game tutorials and strategy primers, well-told story lines, and unlockable features will be found more often in shmups in ten years. Some of these things may not be specifically for hardcore players, but I don't think they will hurt.

I like meat and potatoes shmups and don't need a story, exp points, a child mode etc... but I do like when a shmup with great gameplay combines it with a good story, a wide range of modes, cool features etc... ex. Radiant Silvergun, Panzer Dragoon 2, Mars Matrix (on DC with the points store). These features are obviously used today, but I think they will be more required as time goes on.

I think shmups that combine/mix hori and vert will become more standard. Games that either switch between the two, or allow the player to control their direction and/or rotate. Again, this is already done, but I think it will be more common. Maybe a more open-ended progression through levels where you can take different directions that change ship orientation.
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Re: What will shmups be like in 10 years from now?

Post by Mortificator »

Drum wrote:Halo has more tactical sandboxy gameplay with varied enemy types that create interesting combat scenarios and lots of fun stuff like sticky nades.
I agree. And you know, there's a PC version of Halo (and Halo 2, but I didn't like that as much).
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Re: What will shmups be like in 10 years from now?

Post by Drum »

Obiwanshinobi wrote:In countries where PC gaming is better established than console gaming (Eastern Europe, South Korea), first person shooters have been VERY mainstream for as long as they exist. When Mortal Kombat was the shit, Doom was just as big and so on. Of course those very markets being rampantly plagued by piracy, they don't have that much impact on sales.
If there is one feature of shmups I'd like to see implemented in three-dimensional gaming, it's autoscrolling (don't know any 3D equivalent of the term). The likes of Panzer Dragoon, Rez and Rainbow Cotton tried to follow this path, but remained curiostities rather than trendsetters. How cool Chelnov/Atomic Runner could be as a 3D game? Sin & Punishment games are not quite up there in the acrobatics department, but you get the picture. Some of the autoscrolling bits of Rayman 2 and 3 are memorable to say the least.
You need to play Night Stocker (arcade, 1986). Combination light gun shooter/driving game. You move forward automatically but you have full range of movement and no road you have to stick to. Fantastic game that is criminally overlooked.
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Re: What will shmups be like in 10 years from now?

Post by MR_Soren »

Drum wrote:
MR_Soren wrote:I'm talking about Quake 1-3, not specifically the first Quake, and I disagree.

I don't see Halo's core mechanics being significantly different from Quake. Run around. Grab weapons. Shoot people. Try to stay alive. Same core mechanics, but different design decisions. Halo just happened to make design decisions I do not like. Vehicles, armor, map designs, etc.
Well obviously they're both FPSs, but the Quake games are super by-the-numbers. Quake I was fun enough even if it was basically Doom with way less enemies. Quake II was a big, boring misstep and Quake III sucked compared to Unreal Tournament (but then, so does Halo kekeke). Halo has more tactical sandboxy gameplay with varied enemy types that create interesting combat scenarios and lots of fun stuff like sticky nades. Also, I like the shield system. Made a nice change from standard health/armour and really mixed the gameplay up. It's simple fun with interesting decisions to be made - Quake I & II had less interesting gameplay than Gauntlet. Quake played nice and quick (sorta) but that's about it.
It's amazing that you could write an entire paragraph without saying anything that I agree with. Well, except perhaps the varied enemy types, since I didn't count. UT had some pretty dull map layouts, but didn't take them to the extremes that Halo did. Anyway, this is rather off topic and I don't care to continue. I've had this argument before, and it won't go anywhere. My last reply was drastically shortened from the four rambling paragraphs I originally wrote about armor, maps, and other topics because it would have been pointless.

Hair wrote:Analog controls might become more common.
I think that is inevitable. Even now, d-pads are either not-present (iPhone) or poorly implemented (3DS, 360, Gamecube, Wii), so it not too far-fetched to expect fewer d-pads and fewer good d-pads in the next generation of gaming hardware. Game developers going straight to console or porting from arcades will have to work with the available inputs.

Not sure how I feel about this yet. Getting an iPhone next month. Might have a more informed opinion then. :)
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Re: What will shmups be like in 10 years from now?

Post by BarfHappy »

doujin 2D shmups... i guess we will still see classic style ones from amateurs.

Otherwise, maybe a 3D sequel of a space invader or whatever vibes on nostalgia membrane at the time, and the rest will be sorely missed because CAVE will pull the plug on shmups and concentrate on easy-to-code-high-revenue mobile puzzlers when they cannot produce their own unlicensed hardware anymore for shmups.
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Re: What will shmups be like in 10 years from now?

Post by dunpeal2064 »

The vagrant wrote:
Also, Quake was great, but only pc gamers already willing to play this kind of game really got into it. It was pretty big, but not genre-breaking. It more appealed to the hardcore gamer at the time. Halo, however, made this genre accessable to the common person. All of a sudden everyone at my school, even the non-gamers, were talking about Halo, and especially Halo 2. Considering the topis, I think a lot more should be taken from what Halo did than what Quake did. No matter how you compare the games, Halo was drastically more successfull in making fps what they currently are, the most popular genre of all (at least from what I have seen here in the states)
Could you fucking possibly be more wrong?
Wait, I was angry at first but then I remembered the old "halo invented FPS" line.
Fuck, you got me.
I guess I should have elaborated more. Yes, fps have been popular for a long time, but it was all the same company, and people playing wolfenstein and doom played quake. What I was saying, is that people (at least near me, maybe I live in fuckworld and everything is different here) that never played ANY games all of a sudden were in a fit of excitement over halo. It was on a home console, and brought online gaming to non-pc players

I still think that ID games more appealed to their own crows (although I love them) and Halo, while not as good, made it more popular.

If shmups want to survive, I think a game or two should try this tactic. I could be entirely wrong in this, but then again, tis my opinion :D Hope you understood better this time.
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Re: What will shmups be like in 10 years from now?

Post by TrevHead (TVR) »

TrevHead (TVR) wrote:
gct wrote:Wait I think in 10 years shmups will be like Ketsui in MAME :x
Na itll be 20 years before MAME devs dare touch it. And in 10 years guru will be posting vids on his blog of emulated DFK and future Cave games (which some poor sap sent him the PCBs) and poking fun at everyone else because hes not gonna share it with anyone else :P
I got that one wrong didnt I :oops:

Talking about FPS games, Is it true that Serious Sam HD has a console version? Cosidering as its basically doom or quake turned up to 11 it must either play like a bag of shite or had some major alterations to consolify it that its pratically a totally different game. Any one played it or even both PC and console versions?

EDIT I was feeling really hyped up for the new Duke Nukem game after seeing the trailer. But after reading this thread im not so sure anymore. Im thinking maybe allot of old duke fans are gonna be very disapointed when they get to play it
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Re: What will shmups be like in 10 years from now?

Post by ShmupSamurai »

I'd like to see more branching paths, way more actually. Not in a Darius kinda way, but where each stage has several seamless forks that offer different midbosses and powerups.

Another crazy idea I once had would be for each stage to have three "plains" almost like Guardian Heroes, where you could lower your ship to ground level and destroy tanks, turrets, and bunkers, then at a press of a button fly upward into the air to shoot down planes, and then fly even higher (into space?) to blast satellites and incoming mechs. Of course, the targets you leave alive would be still shooting at you while you are on a different plain, so you'd have to jump back and forth to eliminate as many threats as possible. Perhaps there could be a radar system with different colors indecating which altitude things were on... It would be chaotic but if done right I think it would be badass.

I dig the the three "planes" Guardian Heroes style idea, could make for some interesting "multi-plane bosses", oh and bonus points if it's an technoorganic ship, a living creature, or a person(ESP Ra.DE style) jumping from plane to plane. :D
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Re: What will shmups be like in 10 years from now?

Post by harrihaffi »

In 10 years shmups will turn into minigames in other games of other genres! example: Playing a FPS you will fire a shot that goes into the targets body and then it will turn into a shmup where your goal is to navigate the bullet to the heart or brain...

Or maybe all genre will turn into on! Example: You control a spaceship flying trough enemy space(shmup), one of your friend is stationed at the gunpod shoting enemies trying to attack from below(railshoter), an other player is a soldier on board the ship shooting enemies that keep teleporting on into the ship(FPS) and you all gain experiense and level up while following a story of some sort(rpg)

Also I Wonder has anyone heard about a shmup that uses the wiis motioncontrol? Cause it seems to me like there was this golden opportunity to make shmups popular again! You know when there where no "real games" for the wii, only gimmiki simulations of what wii was capable of...It seems like shmups won't get that chance with the playstation move, maybe kinect I don't know if they are making any "real games" for it...

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Re: What will shmups be like in 10 years from now?

Post by Mero »

Worst case scenario is that in 10 years time all we will have left is old games and doujins
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Re: What will shmups be like in 10 years from now?

Post by rocketassistedkea »

3-D! More specifically...your ship, and debrie....not sure about the flak; maybe it'd stand out more, relatively, in 2d? Guess we'll have to wait 'till someone makes one, and messes 'round with it. Maybe an arrange mode that makes the bullets 3d...who knows. But It'll be cool;0)
Regarding the debrie...if they made it a lower tone [i.e laser fire brightest, then debrie, subdued/low toned backgrounds]; it may not be too obtrusive.

An unlockable second-loop difficulty, so you can start like that.

I liked this one, was thinking the same thing Zac; wearing VR glasses [that don't look mega-dorky]: that transform your real surroundings into interactive geometry, with procedurally generated...stuff, on top]. Would be awesome for a platformer; or a shmup. Oooo. In 3-d. With bullet patterns generated based on volume, so when aunty Doris yells at you...she's like a drogon boss [before being enveloped in flames]. Somehow, someone playing a shmup like this; would scare people less than if it were a FPS...not sure how people'd react to you bursting through their door; and pretending to gun them down:roll:

Credits that get unlocked as you play it more.

Analogue control ['cause it's better, and you know it;0)
Also hurts your thumb less.
Eventually, these will be placed by touch controls...with the touch interface being on pretty girls bodys [whilst wearing the VR]...erm.
Legal issues may become a problem.

Moving on...

Yes, Chempop; something with plains, or like TF IV [3 screens tall, blew my mind in '92]/those endlessly scrolling [vertically] levels in Gradius and Xexex.

Rank [to prevent from becoming boring, if playing for survival]. Could be customisable, why not? If you can choose to make it hardcore...I don't see a problem with also letting it be accessable. Player controlled choice.

Horizontal...'cause I think aesthetically [like landscape paintings, also...look at the 13-20+! layers of parallax in TFIV,] and in terms of game design (interactive scenery/a wider, more varied, more tactical range of [weaker] weapons like RS-an honaray hori, and TF [o.k, an honourary vert]); horis have more untapped potential.
If you could make out the mangled grammer of that...well done. In the future you'll be able to reward yourself for things like that; by playing a VR shmup, where you get to touch yourself. Because legally...touching other people is wrong.

Something postmodern begins to happen. Verts and horis become more alike, i.e; slow, methodical hori bullet-hells [in 3-d]; become not uncommon.

Cave see an opening in the market...and start manufacturing odourless kitty litter, and shmups.
More shmupmakers follow suit...and can thus weather a ravaged economy.
G.Rev also sell cardigans.

Shmups become known as, er...public-shooting-simulations-that-scare-the-bezzezus-out-of-grandma. Or...psststboog....s.
Hmm.

Z
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Re: What will shmups be like in 10 years from now?

Post by Sumez »

MR_Soren wrote:DeathSmiles addresses many of these topics (including Drum's suggestion) and was fairly successful, but didn't give up the feel of being a Cave arcade game.
I think DeathSmiles is an EXCELLENT example of the way to go, and does prove that many of the potentially more controversial points in your post can be executed without alienating the hardcore crowd (like "euroshmups", I guess...).

One thing I think every developer should look into is the way, DS uses the Rank system. Instead of matching the way you play, you choose the rank you want, and keep choosing the "hardcore" way to go, you end up with the relatively brutal death level 2 or whatever the official name is. While the game COULD pose more of a challenge in the first six levels (even on rank 3 it's a pretty easy game even for someone like me who's not too skilled), I guess Black Label fixes that(?).
It's really simple and it might be a matter of preference, but I think this approach makes the game TONS more accessible, AND more fair to superplayers, without forcing them to "play like a retard".

Another thing the game proves is that it's easily possible to make a horizontal shmup without neglecting the gameplay and bullet patterns of a vertical game. People need to give up their preferences and judge games individually instead of being biased about something as insignificant as the orientation of the game.
Horizontal games have the huge advantage of being way more accessible as most people don't want to rotate their monitors for the best experience - sure there's a charm to the geekiness of it, but if you have to be completely objective about it, it IS a bother.
Making use of the entire horizontal screen does not only make it enjoyable to a larger audience, it also allows for "side view" graphics where it's much easier to see what the sprites are actually supposed to look like. EspGaluda II in HD is a terribly beautiful game, but I would REALLY love to see what all the sprites in the game would look like from the side.

Finally, I love the way DS splits the typical first 3 stages into six smaller stages. The fact that the order you play them is optional is pretty admirable and makes it easier to practice every stage, but it does put some limitations on a potentially increasing difficulty, and I wouldn't really miss it if they took that part away. However, having six very short stages instead of three "standard length" stages makes the game seem both longer and a lot more diverse, both visually and gameplay wise.
When people have a tendency of judging shmups for their short length, what they really mean isn't an exact measure of the time from you begin the game till you beat the end boss. What they mean is the "volume" of the game. Give people more variety, give them more ways to play each stage, and more easily visible replayability rather than the typical score attack. I don't think you should make any shoot'em up game longer than DeathSmiles, instead give them enough flavour for players to realise they don't NEED to be any longer.
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Re: What will shmups be like in 10 years from now?

Post by Sumez »

On the topic of analog controls, I see absolutely no reason why classic shmups wouldn't benefit from this, it is a genre where more exact controls would only improve the experience, and I am really puzzled why it is still only a minority of the games using this. However, personally I prefer digital controls, I don't know why, but I guess it has something to do with tradition.
Also, two personal notes on my thoughts about what could make shooters more accessible in the future:


1. Competitive play.
I'm relatively new in shmups, in the sense that I probably didn't buy my first game in the genre until around 10-12 years ago. I used to hate games like Contra and 1942, which were generally considered mainstream games back then (and I'm a HUGE Contra fan now!), and one of the most popular genres too - basically my view on shmups was pretty much the same as on racing and sports games, and first person shooters when those came around. I wanted fun and easily accessible games like platformers and adventure games. As a kid I even returned Guardian Legend to the store when I found out it was a shoot'em up (found it in the bargain bin, and back then all you had to go by was the images on the back of the package :P)
It is only much later that I realised how games like this are pretty much the core essence of true action based gameplay and started embracing them.
The interesting thing about this otherwise completely pointless anecdote is that out of the genres that ruled supreme back then, the shoot'em up is the only one that pretty much died in the mainstream point of view. People view it as a "retro" genre, and even though they might find the game fun, they still see it as old school, and not worth paying full price for. Sports and racing games have constantly evolved since then, and even though they are all so alike that every new game in a serious pretty much replaces the former, they are still among the very best selling games, and people will gladly pay full price for the latest FIFA game -every single year-!
In other words, it is not the old school arcade style approach of the shoot'em up genre that makes people consider them dated, and I don't think it's the 2D gameplay either (essentially a football game is semi-2D as well), I think there are two major factors keeping them apart.
One is the fact that the games that remain popular are simulation games. For some reason people want realistic games, and sports and cars are generally considered "cool", while dragons and space ships are geeky. I hope a game like Bulletstorm (a concept which I otherwise hate) will help change people's view a bit here, but otherwise shoot'em ups are pretty much doomed here.
The other fact is the competitive gameplay which keeps people coming back to these games! People make tournaments, visit eachother to compete, and play online constantly. If shoot'em ups had a more direct competitive gameplay, it would make them MUCH more interesting to the general public.
Online leaderboards (Xbox Live) has already helped a lot in brining back people's interest in high scores (Microsoft does deserve a lot of credit for this), but it's not a very fun way to compete for most people, as you don't compete head on with your friends, and the best player will always be in top, where games like racing games and fighters always give both players a chance of winning if the opponent makes a mistake.
I don't know how it would work, but if someone could make it work, it would be grand.

2. Credit feeding.
Frederik sort of covered this in a post further up, but I'd like to accentuate on its importance.
I don't think the challenge of the typical shmup really puts people off. Recently the way every mainstream game holds your hand and basically makes it impossible to fail has been getting a lot of criticism from the "hardcore crowd" (ie. everybody who actually want to play a game as opposed to watch an interactive movie), but I think the idea that a game has to be easy to overcome in order to sell is completely fake.
Take a couple of game that sell really well:
Pretty much every racing game is really tough! You need to be an expert to beat the harder stages, you need to perfect every curve to get a serious chance of winning, and the only way I could beat GT5 (that's right, I played a racing game, I'm pretty shocked myself) was by spending all my ingame credits on tuning my cars, giving me a completely unfair handicap.
FPS games! The plague of the mainstream, a billion similar world war 2 themed games in a genre that has remained largely uninspired for more than ten years (sound familiar? :P). Most people who are really into this genre don't play it for the single player campaign. They play it for the online matches, against real people, whose skill probably match their own, giving an average chance of winning of merely 50% even for a very skilled player, playing against a similarly skilled player! People play it for the challenge, so why shouldn't they be able to play shoot'em ups for the challenge?

Anyway, getting back to the point, I don't think the extreme difficulty of many shooters put people off (but the first few stages SHOULD be possible for novices to complete with some training!), I think the fact that you can always pop in another free credit and play until the end of the game, makes the game appear too EASY to a person who doesn't care about score attacks.
Another terrible effect this has is when you play the game with infinite credits, you automatically take the game less seriously, and usually fail a lot more. You never get the training needed to improve your skills, creating even worse results, up until the point where you spend 20 credits on the end boss alone. This isn't fun for anyone playing the game, but a lot of people actually end up doing this if they get free credits!!

I think games like Ikaruga, Contra Shattered Soldier and Gradius V found the perfect way to do this.
Basically give the player a low number, eg. 3 credits to play with. Most people won't be able to complete the game with this few credits, and IF they are, it will be fine for them anyway. This will give newcomers a good challenge they can't cheat themselves through, and by rewarding the player with additional credits the more they play the game, they slowly get a better chance of completing the game, that will still pose a challenge even though they don't care how many credits they pop.
The trick here is that not only will these games be able to challenge both novices and experts, it will also allow novices to grow better at the game as they play, basically FORCING them to effectively train their skills until they are able to enjoy the game as much as an expert of the genre, and move on to score attacks!
The games I mentioned (with the possible exclusion of Ikaruga) are all mainly survival based games which means this approach makes more sense, but I think it would also make a lot of sense in a scoring based game, like a Cave shooter. It wouldn't hurt these games to have an added "survival challenge", most of us never play these games on more than one credit anyway!



tl;dr? Sorry. :(
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sunburstbasser
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Re: What will shmups be like in 10 years from now?

Post by sunburstbasser »

Analog buttons would make an interesting concept. Push the button down further, and the firing rate increases at the expense of firepower. Lighten up and the shot rate slows down, but the damage output increases. Properly implemented, it would give players the proper weapons to take out popcorn and larger enemies.
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Re: What will shmups be like in 10 years from now?

Post by nZero »

sunburstbasser wrote:Analog buttons would make an interesting concept. Push the button down further, and the firing rate increases at the expense of firepower. Lighten up and the shot rate slows down, but the damage output increases. Properly implemented, it would give players the proper weapons to take out popcorn and larger enemies.
Shienryu Explosion does something similar to this.
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Re: What will shmups be like in 10 years from now?

Post by TrevHead (TVR) »

While ive never been much of handheld guy in the past the new 3DS could do some really intresting things with panzer dragoon style rail shooters been popular (plus that side scrolling sub game). I suppose the big question is if we will continue to see these type of games been developed for the platform, or will be dropped for different genres when developers and the public get over the gimmik-ery stage of the 3DS and develop more mainstream games
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Re: What will shmups be like in 10 years from now?

Post by Klatrymadon »

If there's a need for better language, Mr_Soren, I'd contend that we should be the ones to come up with it. No worthwhile element of a culture was ever kicked off by marketing twats. They're creative bottom-feeders. ;)
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Re: What will shmups be like in 10 years from now?

Post by drei :3 »

The future is autododge.

Making you look more competent than you really are is an attractive aspect of games. An example is when it looks like you have superhuman reflexes when it's really memorizing. Another example is small hitboxes, though that can also look like a bug or cheat. Fewer or slower bullets are not an option for the future and dodging bullets makes you look cooler than cancelling bullets, so autododge must be it.

At first, autododge will be some sort of limited pseudo-shield and still require some input from the player, like you have 2 buttons that make you get as close to enemy bullets as 1 pixel distance and then dodge left or right respectively. Then, games will have unlimited completely automatic auto-dodge and be mostly about aiming and other stuff, though you will get a score bonus for making superfluous semi-competent dodging commands (at least in grandpa mode). After that, the shmup genre will be basically replaced by SRTS, Suicide Real-Time Strategy, where your score is the time you take to outsmart your own ship's self-preservation mechanisms.

The counter-revolution will start in Europe with the phatvert genre, where the player steers a ship that fills 1/4 of the playfield. The slowness of these ships will be compensated by a multi-tiered energy bar that fills an entire separate screen.

Journalists will focus even more on story and heap praise on a game with terrible controls and broken scoring for its "bold and courageous artistic statement" — meaning unskippable scenes of frolicking chain-smoking quadrileptic underage albino siamese twin furry taliban dickgirls with a diaper fetish that transform into nazi planes.
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DragonInstall
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Re: What will shmups be like in 10 years from now?

Post by DragonInstall »

I think it'll have more options in difficulty with tons of factors. I wouldn't be surprised if it became more RPG with shops and exp upgrades. Probably with a better story line in general, because we know how good the story is in current shmups. :D
Espgaluda III needs to happen.
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Re: What will shmups be like in 10 years from now?

Post by RNGmaster »

DragonInstall wrote:I think it'll have more options in difficulty with tons of factors. I wouldn't be surprised if it became more RPG with shops and exp upgrades. Probably with a better story line in general, because we know how good the story is in current shmups. :D
Are you fucking serious. ESP Ra.De tells a pretty great story just using its atmosphere and the inter-level screens. We as an industry don't need long-winded cutscenes to tell a good story a la FFXIII or MGS4; aesthetics and gameplay mechanics can do that without having to take control from the player.
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Re: What will shmups be like in 10 years from now?

Post by Sumez »

drei :3 wrote:the player steers a ship that fills 1/4 of the playfield.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6nbln3MUah8
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Re: What will shmups be like in 10 years from now?

Post by rocketassistedkea »

drei :3 wrote:The future is autododge.
Ha ha. The game plays itself, powered off the lobotomised human playing it. Future consoles will plug directly into a jar, inside which is your brain.

Seriously. Let's add complexity [not difficulty-which isn't taken away either, as it's selectable]. How about some kind of three [analogue] button energy sharing Star Wars/Tie Fighter...ry system? Shields/weapons/engines. We can simplify that...weapons buttons, and a shield button [which makes you slower and reduces your shots, depending on the pressure]. Even with a shield...the gameplay can be as hard as you want; just look at how tricky; 'Xexex' is.
Maximum firepower, with the button fully-depressed, should slow you too [I liked that in DDPDOJ...but I reckon they chickened out, as I felt they could have made you slower when you fired your focussed beam].

What else? Still waiting for a 3d shmup...I just get the sense; that that could be something very special, and would get noticed by the mainstream-especially as there's a new generation of shmup fans being raised on iphone.

Warning; tangent!...

....Speaking of which.....the time will come, when amazing real-time damage engines like that used by Volition for; 'Red Faction: Guerilla'-won't be exclusive; but will be a mainstream engine-like Unreal 3 today. Even though it's not perfect, i.e; you can't deform steel with heat damage-that's still the best real-damage-engine I've seen. I mean, the way the nano-rifle works in that game-dealing very non-conventional damage...would even make an 'aliens' game possible, as it would pretty closely simulate acid-spray eating away everything a building's made of. Combine that, with something like Il-2 Sturmovik; where i.e, a single rifle-caliber hole in the glycol tank, will eventually stop it from working...something a little like that....and you've got yourselves a spectacle.
I'll try again...imagine a side-scroller [or a top-down, whatever]; where you blast your way through a fleet of star-cruisers/infiltrate a base....an excuse to add a simulation aspect [to the destruction]; AND make the most god-damned visually intense action-spectacle it's possible to get in a game. Graphics that'd make a first-person shooter look...somehow less impressive.
I remember, being a shallow kid in '92...and ThunderForce 4 just blew me away, and every other Megadrive game out of the water graphically. I bought my console, for that game and Desert Strike. It even put Echo the Dolphin 2 to shame. Shmups USED to have the best graphics of any genre-and that was part of the draw.
Clearly, today, making a game like that would be an expensive undertaking...and maybe it always will be; but the costs will/should be dramatically reduced 10 years from now.
It'd only be possible if someone like volition; decides to market their engine (so far, I think they've only made a loss on it-as RFG didn't do as well as they'd hoped...they spent a fortune on the engine....and hope to get it back with the sequel, due this yr I think [which includes, on PC, a free copy of RFG, as a sweetener]).

As a side-note, RFG is an awesome game...I suggest supporting these guys-and buying their new game [It'll rock...this time you'll be able to make skyscrapers crash into each other...more verticality], so they can make a profit...then and only then; will they release the engine for other developers to buy into. I understand that logic. If you've invested everything you have into intellectual property no one else has...you'd better guard it with your life; untill you've made your investment back...THEN you can do other things, market your engine-move on to different things, e.t.c. In any case, that's the path they chose [to keep their IP]; now they have to be persuaded to part with it.

I'd also love to have your ship suffer damage [that gets repaired slowly after a few seconds]-even through your shields...like in Star Raiders. Realistically, even the concussive force of a near-miss from a dive-bomb, or a mine exploding-but missing the hull; will still travel through the armour of even a battleship, and damage machinary inside. It's absurd to me, that what you're flying in a shmup is a puny little star-fighter; I usually imagine myself as some kind of metaphor for a whole wing, or as a large fighting ship [say, a frigate-still a few thousand tons]-that handles like a fighter.
Taking damage, even through your shields MADE SR. Another excuse to add a simulation aspect, without affecting the core of what makes, say, a danmaku shmup a danmaku shmup. Particularly nerve-wracking in SR was when your shields either got totally knocked-out, or damaged [flickering unpredictably]. Both were pretty scary, and memorable.

I reckon that's enough for now;0) It's getting late...

Z
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Re: What will shmups be like in 10 years from now?

Post by TrevHead (TVR) »

Gattling Gears is the future :? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=av7GUnuowGI
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