Why shmups are such a niche genre

[Ed Oscuro]

I don't like the shump parts of SSS at all. Play Gradius Galaxies instead or Steel Empire.

Gradius Galaxies is kind of garbage in its design too. no powerdowns = one button press ruins your game lol!

To be fair I really liked the CINEMATIC!! stage design...the first hundred times to the bio stage. For some reason I just can't hold it together past that (on one life though). Either I ditch in a wall or I just fall asleep.

[TLB]

Wow. I remember when this thread was created, thinking it was just going to be a shitfest of irrelevant opinions, and that it would die soon. MAN, HOW WRONG WAS I, 37 PAGES???!?!! At least I didn't get involved early on, or I'd probably have committed suicide because of this one topic.

Now, to the real shit.

Gradius Galaxies is designed so that it can be 1-lifed starting from scratch at every single area. You should never need to power down if you're playing the game "properly"...?

[doctorx0079]

Wow. I remember when this thread was created, thinking it was just going to be a shitfest of irrelevant opinions, and that it would die soon. MAN, HOW WRONG WAS I, 37 PAGES???!?!!

37 pages, wtf

Gradius Galaxies is designed so that it can be 1-lifed starting from scratch at every single area. You should never need to power down if you're playing the game "properly"...?

I think what he means is that if you accidentally get too many speed ups you have to suicide, which is kind of lame. Be careful with that power-up button. The way the in-game help shows you how to beat every checkpoint is way cool. The only real problem I have with this game is that it takes until like stage 5 to get challenging. But there is always the Hard setting.

[Obiwanshinobi]

Eurogamer's DDP Resurrection review.

[RNGmaster]

Eurogamer's DDP Resurrection review.

I'd worked out the trick to get the biggest scores, and the most massive multipliers, and had survived for five zones without clunking in another virtual coin. It felt good. It felt worthy of a tweet.

I'm actually surprised that it wasn't rage-worthy. This is a really nice review. Hopefully, his attitude will help some of his readers understand what makes shmups worthwhile.

Oh, dammit, is my cynicism showing through?

[gs68]

Indeed. Going back to shmups with boring old slow, twitchy joypad control instead of being able to whip around the screen with the slightest, most precise move of your index finger feels like something from the Dark Ages.

I want to Hyper Counter this guy.

[Ed Oscuro]

You should never need to power down [in Gradius Galaxies] if you're playing the game "properly"...?

Yeah, but if you merely accidentally press the powerup activation button when the icon is on Speed-Up, you're fucked for the rest of the life. Unfortunate design right there. Yes, I do play on the one-life setting because there's no real point to playing with multiple lives when on recovery you are obviously playing differently from how you normally would if you had survived at your normal power level. I find this a good tactic for living a longer and happier life.

[gs68]

I laugh at people who think I'm "insane" for surviving stage 2 of a danmaku shooter for more than 10 seconds on one life, then turn around and play other genres proficiently.

[Exarion]

Well, the SHMUP genre died a long time ago, but Raiden IV and Otomedius G were excellent entries in their series.

Never heard of it, actually.

Never heard of it, but by those screenshot i can safely assume its a bullet hell type of game? {note: the relevant screenshots have no bullets}

both from a thread about RSG's XBLA release in a mainstream forum. So Treasure is not as well known as we thought.

[Domino]

Eurogamer's DDP Resurrection review.

Took me over a month but lol at Rev. Stuart Campbell at the comments section.

[Demetori]

Well, I'll put it the way it happened for me.

1. Played shmups in the arcade when I was a kid; hated them.
2. MAME came along, played them again. Nostalgia tsunami; started enjoying shmups
3. Bought a Japanese PS2 and Ibara; never actually played it.
4. Bought and imported Mushihime-sama; played it fucking loved it.
5. Joined ShMUPS forum and just today bought myself a Supergun.

Way I see it, you love em' or hate em'. Or played them when you were young, got the nostalgia tsunami and really started to enjoy them again.

[gs68]

So I went on a little Pixiv adventure just now. There is a huge boatload of STG-related stuff. Some findings:
- シューティング (Shooting [game]) tag: 1522 images
- STG tag: 4284 images
- グラディウス (Gradius) tag: 697 images
- ダライアス (Darius) tag: 447 images
- サンダーフォース (Thunder Force) tag: 225 images
- Some of the more niche games, like Battle Garegga and Raiden Fighters, still manage to get at least a page of images each. Heck, even Black Heart gets its own tag (similar to how it has its own header on the Battle Garegga page of JP Wikipedia).

To compare, I did a search for "thunder_force" on Danbooru. That returned TWO images. That's not even 1% of 225.
This really shows that the genre, in Western countries, is only a tiny percent as popular as it is in Japan.

I could compare with deviantART for a more proper comparison/contrast, but dA doesn't have a convenient tag system like Pixiv does.

[ZacharyB]

Being negative in any way about a genre you love in any artform will inevitably put people off engaging with it. If they're completely dismissive you've probably got no chance, but for anyone else it's just a matter of finding the right moment and opening. You should also show willing to try games that they like, even if you dismiss them at the first ten minute cut scene.

This is my experience also. Modern gaming is about sociability, not about challenge. If you're able to create a friendship, people will "subscribe" to the games you like based off of that friendship and nothing more. Kind of like how Facebook or another social networking tool works, which in turn is just how human beings work. Challenge has become a moot point in today's mainstream gaming world, because the mainstream is not concerned with challenge. Games are a medium to interact with other people; an experience to share. Challenge is seen as suspending or inhibiting that process. People like to schmooze and talk and move from one thing to the next.

Shmups are unique because the challenge of them has become the sociability point.

I'm glad this thread exists, because it brings to light an important shift in the culture of gaming. Should shmups carry on deeper into the 21st century? They clearly do not have the power to sustain themselves to a consumer populace on their own, seeing as to how expensive games are to make these days. It's thanks to the power of community that they enjoy what players they have today.

I think it is a good idea to keep this idea of "community" in mind when introducing new people to shumps. Always be personable and courteous. And then, if a person opens up to you, reward that. Even if they do it in a roundabout fashion. People seem pretty scared and circumspect to me these days. Don't scare them off.

[Exarion]

I'm back after having some internet problems. And I see that even "shoot em up" and "shmup" have apparently become terms for FPS now, as I have found multiple people on mainstream forums referring to FPS games using those terms.

WARNING TOUHOU WARNING

There was a (no entry fee/disastrous) BlazBlue tournament in my area with all the prizes given by the game's developers. While there, I met someone who was interested in DFK, so I showed him the iPhone port. I had trouble explaining to him that scoring was for more than just getting extra lives. I did not having a problem explaining what a loop was or the most basic elements of scoring, and he said he'd cleared some Touhou extra stages, but I'm going to say that Touhou is bad. I personally did not really attempt to score until I played my first CAVE game, so I believe its that people don't play for score until they try a game with a good scoring system.

[Taylor]

This thread. Oh well, I can post this here:

http://www.youtube.com/view_play_list?p ... U1aRt1hFfI

They're enjoying it, though.

[EPS21]

This thread. Oh well, I can post this here:

http://www.youtube.com/view_play_list?p ... U1aRt1hFfI

So two guys are playing Progear and enjoying themselves. Is this something we don't want?
fwiw playing any shmup 2-player and both not knowing anything about the game, unless you're both experts, there will be credit feeding, before someone gets to me on that.

[neorichieb1971]

I don't think Shmups have any social aspect to them. For those that do socialize on this forum it does make me smile. Topics like "How can I get better at shmups?". Well the best answer to that is to shoot whilst moving inbetween 2 bullets without getting killed. If you cannot get between the bullets in a Cave game you need to learn that trick first and its pointless asking any other questions.

I think shmups are about talent, art, nostalgia and simplicity. Simplicity in aspect of easy to pick up, impossible to master. I don't believe people pick up Ketsui to see if they can 1cc it. Perhaps 3 years later they will do that, but not at the start.

If shmups were not a niche genre I wouldn't enjoy them as much. I am backwards I know.

[Taylor]

So two guys are playing Progear and enjoying themselves. Is this something we don't want?
fwiw playing any shmup 2-player and both not knowing anything about the game, unless you're both experts, there will be credit feeding, before someone gets to me on that.

:roll:
I didn't write anything about the clip except they were enjoying it. They do air a few complaints, like it being too short, that would be relevant to the thread.

[TrevHead (TVR)]

Still its nice to see that rail shmups still has a place in mainstream gaming what with Sin & Punishment 2 and Child of Eden. With Kennect and PS Move im quite intrested in where developers are gonna take the rail shmup genre.

[Obiwanshinobi]

ARE CAVE SUPPOSEDLY THE NEW TREASURE?
Just like Oasis were supposedly the new Beatles?
Or whatever.
http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/2010- ... nge-review
http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/2010- ... -interview

[TrevHead (TVR)]

Yea ive noticed one or 2 extra websites starting to warm to Cave in the past few months due to the iphone ports and NA DS. If you think about it Cave makes for a perfect "industry darling" due to the cult following it has and the hardcore nature of its fanbase.

Well i think its great that Cave is beginning to accepted in western vg journalist circles, changing from a dinosaur from the past into whats seen as a cool dev house. As itll hopefully help pave the way for more localisations.

But if Cave release just lots of shmups it could be possible that some of this coolness wears off in time. That is unless Cave do what Treasure do and branch out into different genres

[gs68]

Guwange is pretty interesting and reasonably priced, but I still dread to buy it, because I know damn well it'll end up being one of those games I'll never be able to 200/200.

WAHHHH I'M NOT BUYING THIS GAME BECAUSE I CAN'T GET ALL ZE ACHIEVEMENTS

Well I haven't seen the Achievement list for this one yet, but shmups are usually quite forgiving in that aspect. None of that "1CC Ikaruga on Hard using two controllers by yourself" silliness.

You know, they're called achievements for a reason you know.

[Red Robin Yum]

Because no publisher brought over most of the really good shmups (Gradius Gaiden, Dodonpachi, Radiant Silvergun, etc) during the PS1/Saturn/N64 era in the west since 3D was "in". As a result, the genre is totally unheard to most modern gamers and those who give a modern danmaku game a chance rage quits because they couldn't pass the first level or just spams continues until the end of the game thinking that they truly beat it. That is my 2 cents.

[neorichieb1971]

you know when you look at the timeline of all things, there is always a part of the timeline which you appreciate most.

Whilst some people feel the gaming world is evolving, it doesn't mean it is getting better, not for all of us.

Games : They were what they were, they are what they are, and soon they will be something entirely different.

So if you think todays offerings of games are the highlight of your gaming life. Get ready for a surprise, in 10 years you'll be saying "I wish the days of Halo would come back!!!"

Shmups are niche simply because only human relics and surreal pattern freaks are amazed by them. I'm both.

I also believe shmups are niche because if a current day day console was an empty bottle and you filled it up with a shmup, it would only be 10% full. It would take someone crazy like Jeff Minter to realize a current day shmup that would gather a million sales. Cave could do it, if they worked with EA. Cross breeding is needed.

I thought of a good idea that if you incorperated a level of Death smiles into the next GTA game that required you to beat the deathsmiles level in order to get 100% trophies, it would expose millions to the genre. Kind of like Shenmue did. Force feeding lol.

[TrevHead (TVR)]

It would be great if more mini games are put into the big budget blockbusters, sadly its still a very rare thing. Isnt it more common in Japan?

[EPS21]

I thought of a good idea that if you incorperated a level of Death smiles into the next GTA game that required you to beat the deathsmiles level in order to get 100% trophies, it would expose millions to the genre. Kind of like Shenmue did. Force feeding lol.

I think Cave has this in mind with their upcoming adventure game, and including dodonpachi as a minigame inside of it.

[Udderdude]

I thought of a good idea that if you incorperated a level of Death smiles into the next GTA game that required you to beat the deathsmiles level in order to get 100% trophies, it would expose millions to the genre. Kind of like Shenmue did. Force feeding lol.

I think Cave has this in mind with their upcoming adventure game, and including dodonpachi as a minigame inside of it.

So they've resorted to tricking people into playing shmups. Fantastic. D:

[Drachenherz]

I thought of a good idea that if you incorperated a level of Death smiles into the next GTA game that required you to beat the deathsmiles level in order to get 100% trophies, it would expose millions to the genre. Kind of like Shenmue did. Force feeding lol.

I think Cave has this in mind with their upcoming adventure game, and including dodonpachi as a minigame inside of it.

What???? I'd hit it...

[ZacharyB]

Shooters that are easy to get in to might encourage new players to start taking the games more and more seriously.

In a perfect world yes however this is not a perfect world , show me one person that started off on easy shooters and went on to do good things in hard games?

This is quoted from the Guwange thread. It implied an interesting point. If all most people want is a quick/easy game now, what changed in society to create this preference? Did video-gaming attract a new type of person that doesn't like difficulty? Or did something change the way that even nerds approach video games now?

Doubtless, games cost more to make than they used to, so appealing to the new mainstream of video games will allow them to survive. But why the obsession with difficulty... low or high?

Are shmups an inherently nerdy genre?

[gennss]

Shooters that are easy to get in to might encourage new players to start taking the games more and more seriously.

In a perfect world yes however this is not a perfect world , show me one person that started off on easy shooters and went on to do good things in hard games?

This is quoted from the Guwange thread. It implied an interesting point. If all most people want is a quick/easy game now, what changed in society to create this preference? Did video-gaming attract a new type of person that doesn't like difficulty? Or did something change the way that even nerds approach video games now?

Doubtless, games cost more to make than they used to, so appealing to the new mainstream of video games will allow them to survive. But why the obsession with difficulty... low or high?

Are shmups an inherently nerdy genre?

I don't think so. Most gamers want value for their money which translates into playtime. Shmups are inherently arcady, so short bursts and required skill development rather than the usual hand-holding is required. I'd say its more of a adrenaline junkie genre than a nerdy genre. Pure addiction keeps me coming back.