Japanese gaming is dead

[Skykid]

Well if Microsoft's only sales pitch is the next Halo or Gears then I'm hoping they go bust first lol.

Two games which there's actually little wrong with. What have Sony got to stop them going bust, if we were to flip the tables on that idea?

[neorichieb1971]

I'm talking from preference really. I don't like FPS games and I don't buy Sony's FPS games either. I do understand that Xbox 360 has better FPS games (apparently).

Sony make more of my type of game, a little more varied etc. But this generation is generally shite anyway.

For me, jumping, climbing, exploring is better than shooting. Puzzle solving, real life solution (The resident evil crank comes to mind), melting ice with fire, anti gravity to lift heavy things etc. I like that incorperated into gaming. I don't like super combo's, 8 mile sniping, strategy in numbers type games. I like to feel I am the character and I like to explore worlds that are not based on street violence or generic warfare.. Its boring.

When I saw Halo Reach advertised on gametrailers.com it just turned me of in 3 seconds. Its just another gun game. You move forward, you move back, you move to the side and you fucking shoot. And there are a gazillion games like that these days. But 2 months later there is another game just like it getting everyone excited. Then it turns out its nothing more than a copycat game that fails to deliver anything new.

within the next 6 months there will be an advert for the latest game on Xbox 360. It will have men jumping out of a hovering helicopter, rockets being fired, some man crawling through long grass etc etc. I can't wait i'm so excited. I get the impression that if you say you like Bananas, you have to eat bananas your whole fucking life.


if the movie industry was the same..

Last year Avatar, 3 months later - Earth invades, 6 months later - White people vs blue aliens, 12 months later Avatar 2 Revenge of the Na'vi. By this time I think the theme would be overkill. But in games its a merry go round.

[mesh control]

Its just another gun game. You move forward, you move back, you move to the side and you fucking shoot. And there are a gazillion games like that these days.

Some may say the same thing about certain genre...

Halo/COD/KZ are just in poor taste.

Wake me up when TimeSplitters 4 is released (which will most likely never happen).

[Kaiser]

Its just another gun game. You move forward, you move back, you move to the side and you fucking shoot. And there are a gazillion games like that these days.

Some may say the same thing about certain genre...

Halo/COD/KZ are just in poor taste.

Wake me up when TimeSplitters 4 is released (which will most likely never happen).

Yeah the leaked concept arts as of recent aren't giving much hope either... they're crytek's bitch now. I remember hearing somewhere that one of ex-free radical devs said TimeSplitters 4 would appear when the market is ready... I interpret that as when market gets VERY old of the modern warfare borefest so sci-fi potentially could find it's way back in, makes snese.

[neorichieb1971]

Sci fi makes for a much more interesting theme, but it has to be original and catchy. I really liked Dead Space as generic as it was because it scared the shite out of me.

Its funny how different people see things. I showed Stunt car racer on the amiga to my friend saying how a nextgen version would be so cool. He said, thats like rainbow road on the new Mariokart game lol.

A nextgen Road Rash would be cool too. If you want to put a sniper option and gunship helicopter in it, then so be it, but just make it.

Anyway, back to Japanese gaming. I suspect its failing because the West isn't absorbing it, the talent making the games are divided about it and hardware is costing too much to develop for. At the moment my Japanese hero list consists of Team Ico and Polyphony. Polyphony should make a nextgen Motortoon. I really liked that back in the day although it really flopped. I think thats another problem, when Sony get a 2nd party dev to make a franchise they live on it for years.

[Skykid]

@Richie:

What I mean is, you named two of the biggest releases on the system as reasons why you dislike the system, but there's little to nothing the two games have in common. One is an FPS, the other a TPS, and both play completely differently. I can only guess that you have such a pre-conceived hate for M$'s 360, that you consider them equally as bad as each other without having actually played either properly to find out.

That's not cool man, gamers aren't about that!

I hated CV: Lords of Shadow for the first hour with a passion, but I've played hours of the game to see it improve.

One day it would be nice to see these walls come down. With so little choice in decent modern gaming, you're doing yourself a disservice by confining yourself to one console (especially the one with no Cave games on it.)

Also, the quote in your sig has got to be out of date by now. Ceph made that comment at a point when he thought Sony were going to turn the fortunes of the PS3 around any day. Since that point he's been banned and the chances of Sony leading this gen's console race are nil, what with all the shooting in the foot over the last few years.

[neorichieb1971]

LOL @ the sig. Yeah I notice it from time to time but never change it.

I like moody games, not bang bang games. Its really as simple as that. Even shmups I prefer to be moody. I did try Gears but couldn't control it at all. Thats not the fault of the game or the machine, its my fault. Its also very competitive online so I don't go there. I am happy playing Mr driller 2 on my cab for 4 hours a day sometimes but I can't stand quite a few of the 3D games for more than 30 minutes. The problem lies in my ability to act fast with complex controls. Somewhere between PS2/GC and today I have lost the nack. Even RE4 and RE5, I can beat RE4 without hardly losing a single life but in RE5 I am very weak at it.

So with all that taken on board. I like slower paced games. Games that have you shooting and stuff, but have quieter moments where you can breathe for a while. The Silent hills/dino crisis/Resident Evils/Metal Gears of the past all had that. If you compare that to todays offering in the same genres you can't really say that. Uncharted is action, action, MORE ACTION all the way through. Metal Gear 4 was climb through a hole (cinematic), go past a guard (cinematic), fart (cinematic), fall asleep (Dream cinematic).

So really i'm looking for nextgen moody games, not nextgen ACTION games or 25 hour movie games. I will argue yet again that bigger budget games on Microsofts console fall into FPS and TPS.

Overall this generation is not for me. I might find an obscure gem here and there. I thought Joe Dangerous was awesome.

[Skykid]

Overall this generation is not for me.

On that note we're largely the same, but there are a few things here or there worth playing.

[Obiwanshinobi]

I just replayed the original Onimusha and boy, do I hope Capcom won't ever have any outside developer make any 30 fps sequel of it. Even though I feel that Onimusha has never delivered the ultimate blow and never fully bloomed so to speak. They should have kept prerendered backrounds and tank controls, add co-op along the lines of Diablo (possibly versus too), good scripting (I used to think Capcom was cursed in this department, but Breath of Fire V, Ōkami and friggin' God Hand proved me wrong) and it would be as entertaining in high resolution as it was in the SDTV era. Shouldn't be too tricky to code, so they could put more effort in the art.
Heck, when Capcom outsources TPP slashers - a genre they reigned over almost absoultely not that long ago - it makes me wonder what do they think they are good at.

[neorichieb1971]

The problem is that in the past era (ps2) the games had inferior graphics but more oomph about them. This generation a game has gone to great lengths to be shiny but lacks any mystique or story to drive it (God of War 3 etc).

Castlevania LOS is one such game. They spent so much time developing the graphics they sacrificed camera control, framerate, even the god damn feel of the franchise. Its definitely a case of them needing to take 2 steps back and then 3 steps forward. There is nothing wrong with the graphics but the nextgen feel is lost on "they could of done that better" or "if only they had done this instead". I only played the demo but I felt nothing about it hit the spot. There was a certain repetition about the game too, like its played by the numbers.

Prince of persia - Its a nice looking game, but only sands of time really excited me. I've played this last one for ages (not finished yet) and there is no narration at all, no interaction with other characters.. As a result it feels inferior even though it looks better.

I watched zero punctuation reviews this morning. The one on E3 2010 was notable for saying the same sort of things. They are forcing waggle games down our throats when nothing was wrong with the controller in the first place. Its a boring excuse to reinvent 100 games we have already played but now we have to dance to the game instead of play it. Here it is - http://www.escapistmagazine.com/videos/ ... 38-E3-2010


Whoever thought heavy rain was nextgen needs shooting - http://www.escapistmagazine.com/videos/ ... Heavy-Rain

So there you have it folks. Something got last in translation from last era to current.

[dcharlie]

and yet here is the thing with Heavy Rain - it's a compelling and enjoyable experience with a decent-to-good storyline that's extremely well executed.

Gameplay is from the casual look stuck in Shenmue without a ticket out, but it's more than that - and, interestingly, it is a real dark and miserable experience. I went in expecting it to really suck after i tried the demo and ended up unable to put the thing down until i'd gotten all the way through.

there are parts of "The trials" that stack up tension and one scene in particular will live with me for some time, you really start to feel what the main character was going through, although as a new parent myself the actual subject matter also means i have some empathy with the situation. The QTE stuff looks mehmeh, but there's a lot more going on than you think. One of the best PS3 games for sure.

[Blade]

I'm a western gamer, and yet I feel highly bothered by the fact that very few western games appeal to me. Why is that? It's not because I'm otaku who likes anime or manga...no. It's not because I absolutely hate the trash Adult Swim spits out day after day.

And also it's not because the majority of game developers think guns and bald space marines are the most awesomest thing since sliced bread. And also it isn't because sports games are constantly recycled.

I ignore half the games on the shelf...and only a few ever really catch my eye.

Only recently has the game "Kitten Blade" even got my notice, among other things. You could say that the majority of games that appeal to me come from swords and sorcery, but NOT swords and sorcery. That's the problem and the trick of it all.

The complaint is, their expected demographic is shrunken to a shrivel and now they don't have the funds to do the research on games I happen to LIKE.

In fact I'm probably the least likely person they'd ask what kind of games I like. Which I think needs to change.

[Ed Oscuro]

Whoever thought heavy rain was nextgen needs shooting - http://www.escapistmagazine.com/videos/ ... Heavy-Rain

Is there anything in this whole world more "Nextgen" than Zero Punctuation?

Bad memories of trying to sleep while somebody was playing those on a laptop next to me. Bad memories.

[TrevHead (TVR)]

Continueing talking about the gaming landscape of the future, Imo due to the quality of the current gens graphics capabilities i feel the next genration or two wont show as much a leap in quality from last gen onto the next (although 3d could change that slightly). Hopefully this will mean that other aspects will improve. Like making the systems simple and easier to code for and less prone to breaking down.

Plus with developers not needing to spend too great an effort in the graphics they might look more into the game design and gameplay aspects as having limitations can produce some really novel game design. Just think back to the 8bit home computer era with speccy programmers having to think out of the box due to the limitations of the hardware.

[neorichieb1971]

Nope, the nextgen consoles will concentate on Wayne Rooneys pubic hair and COD's detail on the insects in the grass. The execution, gameplay and ideas of the gameplay will remain just as they are now.. You are playing the future today, without the details on the pubic hair and insects faces.

[Obiwanshinobi]

I just thought they really should start doing justice to concrete. I even like the material and like the way it ages and grows into environment. Will make for some majestic ruins in the future.



Concrete still waits for its grand game methinks.

[neorichieb1971]

I've got Taitos digger simulator on the PS1. Can't remember the name of it, but you pour concrete in that game. Not that PS1 does concrete justice.

[Wenchang]

But more to the point, Japan does not like making "realistic" looking games.

Silent Hills 1-4 looked about as "realistic" as possible on their native hardware. Then there goes Pro Evolution Soccer/Winning Eleven. Vagrant Story felt short of photorealism due to the clumsy character animations and proportions rather than lack of the developer's will to make it look realistic. Metal Gear Solid series used to resemble live action films quite prominently. Then what about Gran Turismo, eh?
There is a tradition of pushing the hardware in the photorealistic direction in Japan as well.
Last but not least, Contra: Shattered Soldier says hello (not even particulary high-tech endeavour at the time). Under Defeat is aesthetically in this vein either (minus the cyber-bio-splatter): metal, mud and concrete. Gears of War, KillZone and the likes want to be in this day and age what Contra, Ikari Warriors etc. used to be in the past.

Gran Turismo and Winning Eleven are counter-examples but aren't particularly reflective of the state of the Japanese game industry. Though it is true that the Japanese industry has a long history of working towards realism in those types of genres. But if you were to compare Japanese shooters VS American shooters or Japanese RPGs to Western RPGs there's clearly a vastly difference approach in the style and design of the games. And the more realistic look is clearly not as big in Japan as it is in the West. Just look at the way they market American games in Japan, with cartoony looking covers and the like.

It's worth noting also that most of the other examples you used were Japanese games heavily influenced by Western(mostly American) culture which is likely the main reason they ended up looking the way they did(surely in Metal Gear's case). I actually don't understand the Shattered Soldier example though.

[CMoon]

Is Japanese gaming dead on the handhelds? Part of the problem with whatever 'Japanese gaming' is, comes from everything in modern gaming being about presentation (style over substance.) I like a lot of the new games, but some of my favorite next gen games are the ones that had little money behind them and a niche audience. Most of the big budget titles are pretty, but often forgettable.

I'm still playing of titles on the DS thanks to Atlus. Maybe the 3DS will bring games back to the level of the PS2 where they were actually affordable to produce. Would this usher in more creativity?

[Obiwanshinobi]

But if you were to compare Japanese shooters VS American shooters or Japanese RPGs to Western RPGs there's clearly a vastly difference approach in the style and design of the games. And the more realistic look is clearly not as big in Japan as it is in the West. Just look at the way they market American games in Japan, with cartoony looking covers and the like.

RPGs? Like those dungeon crawlers From Software have been making since the original PlayStation days? Those didn't look Japanese to me, and yet I doubt any of them were made with western audience in mind.
Shooters? Like that PlayStation game Project Overkill visually ripping off Fallout so blatantly that you have to wonder why Interplay didn't sue the living pants off Konami?

It's worth noting also that most of the other examples you used were Japanese games heavily influenced by Western(mostly American) culture which is likely the main reason they ended up looking the way they did(surely in Metal Gear's case).

Name me one Japanese thing that isn't heavily influenced by something some other nation developed before the Japanese picked it up and tweaked to their liking. For instance, Dragon Ball is clearly influenced by Journey to the West and Chinese folktales. About 100 years ago they started emulating western cultures, but imitation as such was a distinctive feature of their culture way before that. Say, Suikoden is based on another Chinese classic novel coupled with Dragon Quest-style "European" medieval sword and sorcery fantasy settings.

I actually don't understand the Shattered Soldier example though.

Does it look cartoony, all manga, anime and stuff? I wouldn't say so. The truth is, Japan has a long history of making games about '80s style Hollywood action heroes running around and shooting things:
Contra (Bill and Lance were clearly supposed to resemble Schwarzenegger and Stallone respectively for goodness sake)
Dynamite Duke (need I say more?)
NAM-1975
Gunforce (and people complain about modern shooters being brown and grey...)
That's a handful of Japanese shooters for you. I wouldn't say those games were anything exceptional in the eighties-nineties.

[ED-057]

Nope, the nextgen consoles will concentate on Wayne Rooneys pubic hair and COD's detail on the insects in the grass. The execution, gameplay and ideas of the gameplay will remain just as they are now.. You are playing the future today, without the details on the pubic hair and insects faces.

lol. I'm not against formulaic games per se. (I own 10 Megaman games for instance.) But it's kind of a disappointment when a crapton of development money is going into games that need fancy hardware to run on and sell for $50+, and they are formulas that I don't even like that much.

Name me one Japanese thing that isn't heavily influenced by something some other nation developed before the Japanese

Tentacle hentai. (I don't really know, but if you resort to researching the history of tentacle hentai in order to show that I am wrong you have still lost)

[Obiwanshinobi]

Tentacle hentai.

Good call. Cephalopod fetish in general seems to be a peculiarly Japanese thing. I can also think about a folding fan (Japanese invention) and magical girls (Cutie Honey and the likes; I don't think they are equivalent of any western kind of superhero).

[Ed Oscuro]

I actually don't understand the Shattered Soldier example though.

Does it look cartoony, all manga, anime and stuff? I wouldn't say so. The truth is, Japan has a long history of making games about '80s style Hollywood action heroes running around and shooting things:
Contra (Bill and Lance were clearly supposed to resemble Schwarzenegger and Stallone respectively for goodness sake)
[stuff]
That's a handful of Japanese shooters for you. I wouldn't say those games were anything exceptional in the eighties-nineties.

What matters is that there was a time when anybody could cheaply make a very competent game, and somebody with passing skills could make a GREAT one.

Nowadays everybody has to be classically trained artists to make a poor game that's totally unbalanced. Does anybody remember reading about how John Romero's Daikatana developers - the ones without backgrounds in computer art production - submitted a huge 1000 pixel wide arrow for a tiny GUI element? Spending massive amounts of time on things that you look at for two seconds is becoming the norm. To be fair, a lot of what we're seeing in games is photographed or even procedurally generated (the structure of trees in The Elder Scrolls IV: Oblivion for example), but it still takes an ungodly amount of time to handcraft things in many cases. Which is why Valve Software does so well when they sketch a lot of their games out, like Team Fortress 2. Of course, 2D games can be even worse, since every last thing has to be handmade in many cases (unless you're lazy).

The execution, gameplay and ideas of the gameplay will remain just as they are now.. You are playing the future today, without the details on the pubic hair and insects faces.

I'm a lot more interested in those insect faces than I am in the latest round of your useless anti-tech whinnying.

[dcharlie]

bu bu bu what about melting ICE with FIRE!?!?

[neorichieb1971]

Japan is anti tech buying. Wii wii wii... PSP PSP PSP...

I sure do need to get over this whining malarkey

[Obiwanshinobi]

I see the thread I made about A Shadow's Tale went under without any replies. Check it out, folks. Looks like the excact kind of game I'd like to see more on consoles (and PCs, but those keep getting so many fantastic platformers, action adventures etc. for free or for peanuts that I can't really complain).

[MadScientist]

bu bu bu what about melting ICE with FIRE!?!?

PJ Shooter. The sequel sounds pretty good;

http://www.cheatmasters.com/cmnews/0/1756/news.html

Why are people going on about the new Castlevania? It was made by a Spanish dev team. Frankly I think Japan has been listening to the 'make games that appeal to the West' advice too much and have farmed out a number of respected series to Western developers in the hope that they'll make games with Western-appeal (recently Front Mission, Silent Hill, Bionic Commando, Rocket Knight etc...). Unsurprisingly, the results are usually less than inspired.

[neorichieb1971]

LOS would have been better had it not tried to be Castlevania. When you have the freedom of a new franchise you have a much better chance of a better game. Squeezing a 3D engine into a Castlevania isn't as easy as it looks. If the Japanese devs thought it was easy they would have succeeded by now. Besides CVLOS is just borrowing ideas from every other game, whilst not doing anything particaruly better then the games it borrowed from.

Just like movies, games need to be memorable for being funny, scary, atmospheric or technically brilliant. CVLOS misses all of them apparently.

If you take the origonal Resident evil, it was scary, jumpy, atmospheric.. as was silent hill. But by the time you have 10 million polygons and 5 or 6 sequels later, something goes missing no matter who makes it.

[dcharlie]

If you take the origonal Resident evil, it was scary, jumpy, atmospheric.. as was silent hill. But by the time you have 10 million polygons and 5 or 6 sequels later, something goes missing no matter who makes it.

Isn't this just running out of ideas ? it doesn't really have anything to do with the hardware. A high polygon count doesn't magically erase innovation - things just go stale and, i'd guess given the economics behind each game, more and more companies are less inclined to take chances.

Some incredible games this gen (though there -is- a massive amout of generic crap). i think i harped on about Portal before to you. Did you ever try it?

[ED-057]

A high polygon count doesn't magically erase innovation

No but maybe when there is that much time&money invested in the development there will be more focus on shipping something and less willingness to second-guess or fine-tune the game. Maybe this or that section should be cut and some feature should be fixed/added, except it will result in a delay and $$$ down the toilet so it`s just left as it is.

Portal

I played this when the free version was released. I kept saying "when are these tutorials going to be over with so I can get to the actual game?" I could not reconcile this modest puzzle game (which seemed to be much less challenging than Adventures of Lolo, Light Crusader, or many others) with the hype the preceded it. Seriously, based on the hype I had envisioned something like HL2 but with portals popping up left and right with enemies and projectiles flying in and out of them.