Japanese gaming is dead

[Skykid]

Is it?

I'm not convinced it's dead outright, not with Cave still plugging away ( ), but Keiji Inafune seems pretty pessimistic.

"I look around Tokyo Games Show, and everyone's making awful games," Inafune told the New York Times.

(article: http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/2010- ... ehind-west)

Personally, I can't blame the guy - he's right. Japan turn out bucketloads of shit games these days, nearly all of them shit because they're trying to ape western formats and failing hard.

"The Japanese game creators have to admit we're behind the Western games at this moment and try to be humble and learn why. Otherwise, we're not going to be able to start all over again."

This is the problem for me, whereas Inafune considers it the solution. Shouldn't the Japanese industry be galvanising what they're brilliant at instead of trying to emulate western tastes and turning out sub-par nonsense? They're all leaping to where the money is and landing with broken legs, when they should be capitalising on Japan's gaming masses and building superb games for that community - games which are so good the west also wants to play.


Just like Nintendo.

[Kaiser]

Japanese devs try to turn their apples into oranges however the taste is so shit no one wants it so they should JUST make better apples!

(and less cats will burn in process)

[agustusx]

For years we've been hearing the opinions of various Japanese game developers saying how their native companies aren't competing with the West when it comes to game technology and innovation. Some blamed the lack of sharing technology; some just blamed it on tunnel vision. This has been going on for a long time. Even before this, the Japanese gaming market had been shrinking (blame cell-phone games) while the European market has grown. In today’s gaming ecosystem how large a share does Japan hold?

If you are making less money locally than abroad you are likely to invest more in making sales overseas. The Japanese are quite good at this had have been for decades. That was the entire purpose of many companies including Sony and the Walkman, sell to foreigners. Regardless of what a small percentage of knowledgeable enlightened gamers want, the masses win.

Games which are so good the west also wants to play

Are talking about the people who bought Dragon Age because of the punk song in the commercial without knowing the game played like an old school RPG? I definitely think quality games can sell everywhere, and there are many examples of this still to this day. However, I acknowledge no matter how much I enjoy Orta or Bayonetta, the next American guy may thinks it's too Japanese and instead prefers Halo or Darksiders.

Good News! Fighting games are doing very well internationally right now, and we know where those games are made. J-RPG’s have a long history and have a long future ahead of them in my opinion. Just yesterday my nephew was too preoccupied with his DS and a J-RPG to play a game of MTG with his uncle. I’m sure his buying habits are skewed for life, he is a repeat buyer for Bakugan, Yugioh and all those Jazzy- Japanese card games.

Personally, I want the Japanese to give me more East and less West. As long as Capcom keeps churning out the fighters, I'll let Lost Planet slide. With the MvC franchise I think the Western mix of characters created a synergy that can't be matched, not even by SF vs Tekken.

And while the Japanese are dabbling with genres typically crafted by Westerners I see fresh spins on tired genres. Vanquish would be a good example, I don't think I've played a FPS with a boost-cover mechanic like that at all.

[Skykid]

Some may disagree, but for me one of the only modern games (non Nintendo casual style) that had perfect global appeal while retaining it's unique Japanese-ness was Resident Evil 4.
Resi was always western influenced in theme, but quintessentially Japanese in craft and design. Resi 4 really was a trendsetter and a pioneer of a whole new world of adventure gaming, with more cinematic qualities and depth than just about anything in the genre ever since. But it walked the line perfectly, being an exercise in design by Capcom's finest and making few of the concessions made by it's underrated (but certainly more westernised) sequel.

Western companies who turn out quality games in the adventure genre (FPS's really, Halo and GOW) know how to create great, cinematic games, but compared to the intricacy of Resi 4 they're plainly simple affairs.

[Obiwanshinobi]

They didn't invent video games, you know. Which shmup had scrolling backgound first? Defender? Aping western stuff isn't exactly the problem. Making shit games is.

Some may disagree, but for me one of the only modern games (non Nintendo casual style) that had perfect global appeal while retaining it's unique Japanese-ness was Resident Evil 4.
Resi was always western influenced in theme, but quintessentially Japanese in craft and design. Resi 4 really was a trendsetter and a pioneer of a whole new world of adventure gaming, with more cinematic qualities and depth than just about anything in the genre ever since. But it walked the line perfectly, being an exercise in design by Capcom's finest and making few of the concessions made by it's underrated (but certainly more westernised) sequel.

Western companies who turn out quality games in the adventure genre (FPS's really, Halo and GOW) know how to create great, cinematic games, but compared to the intricacy of Resi 4 they're plainly simple affairs.

I don't get it. When I think "cinematic adventure game", Another World, Flashback, Prince of Persia, Ico and the likes come to mind. Cinematic qualities of RE4 were clumsy and embarrassing if you ask me (I like Mercenaries, where it all boils down to sheer mechanics, better than the scenarios). Heck, Max Payne on the PC had more of a cinematic punch. I see nothing pioneer in RE4 except for the unique controls. This kind of linear, story driven action game is nothing new, really. First peron shooters were there in 1998 (Unreal and Half-Life).

[Skykid]

They didn't invent video games, you know. Which shmup had scrolling backgound first? Defender? Aping western stuff isn't exactly the problem. Making shit games is.

Pretty aware of the history, but I think the point is that there's a legacy of fine Japanese gaming that is all but phasing out. Inafune knows it, and we know it.
Japan has always 'aped' western commercial output in most stuff they do, from games to music to anime etc. - but normally they make it their own. You're right about them making shit games, but it's my belief that they're abandoning what they do brilliantly to try to emulate (not ape) western gaming completely, despite the fact the two cultures are completely alien. It'll take them forever to get their heads around how to properly make a game formula appeal totally to a western audience.

Look at fucking Kojima - can you imagine how much better Metal Gear Solid would be if it actually had a comprehensible plot? Unfortunately it makes not a blind bit of sense - it's completely head over heels Japanese, part of the reason why MGS will never be as big as Halo.

[Specineff]

They didn't invent video games, you know. Which shmup had scrolling backgound first? Defender? Aping western stuff isn't exactly the problem. Making shit games is.

Wasn't it SNK's Vanguard?

[cul]

So, generic boring FPS is the innovative path that boring generic JRPG land must take to lead the vidya market again?

[ZacharyB]

Hell, what even makes a game fun. New mechanisms brought to old genres? How about new genres. Alien husbandry? Space cooking? Metabolism simulator (think you can do a better job than your rhombencephalon?)?

[cj iwakura]

Atlus JP is one of the few bright stars in a bleak industry. They never fail to innovate.

[evil_ash_xero]

The day Japanese gaming is truly dead, is the day I quit buying new games.

I have a severe dislike for 99 percent of western games. Must be a genetic flaw.

[Ed Oscuro]

capitalising on Japan's gaming masses and building superb games for that community

So Gundam and Monster Hunter.

Also let's not forget that dog that shows up in Flash games whenever Pixiv is in downtime, that's as close as I've seen community-driven games get in Japan.

I have a severe dislike for 99 percent of western games. Must be a genetic flaw.

The Scrooge Gene just means you'll die rich and with pleasantly uncarpaled wrists (well, unless you pump all that money, and free wrist time, into other diversions). That can't be a bad thing. I definitely would like to see better games; from my perspective, almost all games are either not as good as they could be, or are too short to keep me happy year in and out.

[Drum]

They didn't invent video games, you know. Which shmup had scrolling backgound first? Defender? Aping western stuff isn't exactly the problem. Making shit games is.

Wasn't it SNK's Vanguard?

Nope - Defender - 1980, Vanguard - 1981. Vanguard wasn't the first fixed direction scroller either - that honour goes to Cosmic Avenger.

[Rob]

I have a severe dislike for 99 percent of western games.

Yeah, but add a boost gimmick and QTEs to Gears of War and it goes from dull to awesome!!

[Ed Oscuro]

It's funny that Cosmic Avenger (played it a few times) looks so much better than Scramble. I still think I like Scramble better, however.

And on the general topic of "Western vs. Eastern game design," it's interesting that Defender has freedom of movement implemented before the fixed scrollers, but the style of game it represents ended up being much less prevalent than the more focused left-to-right (or upwards) designs.

[evil_ash_xero]

I have a severe dislike for 99 percent of western games.

Yeah, but add a boost gimmick and QTEs to Gears of War and it goes from dull to awesome!!

Well, obviously.

Seriously though, I can't help it if GOW puts me to sleep, and Vanquish is like a speed rush.

[Drum]

I have a severe dislike for 99 percent of western games.

Yeah, but add a boost gimmick and QTEs to Gears of War and it goes from dull to awesome!!

That's actually true though.

[mesh control]

MY WIFE
WHERE IS SHE

[Rob]

Seriously though, I can't help it if GOW puts me to sleep, and Vanquish is like a speed rush.

Sweet, you should try out Dark Void. It's like Gears of War with QTEs and a jetpack.

[evil_ash_xero]

MY WIFE
WHERE IS SHE

I quit the game when that dude was ready to let the world burn to find his woman. So I never found out!

[Drum]

I liked Gears better when it was called Nitro Ball. No cover for cowardly fat-fingered westerners to hide behind in that game.

[Ed Oscuro]

I liked Gears better when it was called Nitro Ball. No cover for cowardly fat-fingered westerners to hide behind in that game.

oh god this x2222

but then I'D BUY THAT FOR A DOLLAR?

[MadScientist]

can you imagine how much better Metal Gear Solid would be if it actually had a comprehensible plot? Unfortunately it makes not a blind bit of sense - it's completely head over heels Japanese, part of the reason why MGS will never be as big as Halo.

Quick, everybody remove all trace of personality from your games, so you can be as successful as Halo!

[GaijinPunch]

Japan has always 'aped' western commercial output in most stuff they do, from games to music to anime etc.

You had me until this. It's hard to make cookie cutter shit music worse than America, but Japan has made it an artform. Anime -- that's kind of "their thing". It's like saying Europe does Soccer better and America does Basketball better. You didn't mention film, so I will: Again, awful. 3 worthwhile movies a year doesn't make you a force to be reckoned with. They were really just awesome at making games, but the lolis have invaded. Hardly "aped" the west in anything they did, as you put it.

</soap box>

[JoshF]

Here's a retarded interview from Keiji Inafune: http://bits.blogs.nytimes.com/2010/09/2 ... -designer/

Q.: You’ve tried to tailor your games more to the West. But sometimes that’s been a challenge, like Shadow of Rome. Can you talk more about that?

A.: Shadow of Rome was a failure. We westernized the game in a very superficial way. We simply thought, “If we do this, they’re going to like it.” But I realized we were being very superficial: to us it was turning eyes blue and changing the hair color.

Q.: What did you do right with Resident Evil? That sold well overseas.
On the other hand, Monster Hunter’s sold well in Japan, but not overseas.

A.: We were more successful with Biohazard/Resident Evil. We made the lead character American and he speaks English.

Also he hasn't realized Biohazard's declining popularity might have something to do with it still controlling like 1992.

[Elixir]

Inafune is stupid. He thinks Capcom have to remodel their games entirely in a western fashion in order to appeal to westerners.

Monster Hunter is a western styled game, but westerners are treated secondary as the games aren't translated and released internationally at the same time.

Inafune is responsible for the transplanting of MH3 to the Wii, instead of the PS3. The game did poorly and sells for barely anything because the fanbase 1) expected the game to be for PS3, and 2) expected it to be above 2nd G. They also didn't expect the monthly fee, for a Wii game, at that. What was the next path they took? A monthly fee on top of Xbox Gold as a requirement for the JP-only Monster Hunter Frontier, a ported PC game. To a console with a really small fanbase in Japan.

He's also responsible for Lost Planet 2, which sold poorly, and he blames others for this. Maybe he should take a look at the credits screen.

Dead Rising 2 was outsourced, and was leaked a few days ago, which wouldn't have happened if it were made within Japan. How many leaked Japanese 360 games are there? Yeah.

Inafune's basically claiming that other companies are getting away with cheating, by taking genres that they know how to develop for, and making slight improvements. He can't honestly say this while working for the company responsible for Street Fighter and Megaman.

どうでもいいな, Inafune. Don't worry, your buddy Ono is already abusing arcade ops and catering to consoles before arcades, DMC5 looks like some Twilight game and the new Megaman looks like six different colours of horrendous. Kamiya has said that DMC he doesn't make isn't true DMC and Mikami doesn't want anything to do with Resident Evil 6.

It can't get much worse for Capcom. It really can't.

[Jonathan Ingram]

Inafune must`ve never left the Capcom booth at TGS. No wonder he thought all the games were awful.

And if there was a problem with this year`s TGS, it`s just that it was too awesome. Ryu ga Gotoku: of the End, Project Dark and The Last Guardian all in one place. What more one could wish for?

[neorichieb1971]

I don't think its a case of Japanese gaming thats the problem. It's the no new idea problem thats getting them. Personally I believe gaming is at its lowest since the demise of Atari. Even the 5 star rated games have me wondering why the hell i'm playing it in the first place. Even my beloved genres just seem samey and the top 10 charts always seem to have something in it that we have all played before.

I will go back to my statement I've said many many times. The AAA roster of games coming out are in the same vein of shooting people in the head, getting a touchdown or getting the fastest lap on a track that you've been around more times than the professionals (in the computer world obviously).

But these games are selling high numbers, so its not all bad, just boring.

There is a huge gap in the market for other types of games, but the Japanese don't see it unfortunately.

I would like to think a ripoff of RE1 this generation would be fantastic for example. Since Capcom don't see a market for that type of game anymore. Suspense, mystery, story.. It sells. Anyone still hooked on graphics, 3D, resolutions and fps are just silly now. Its good enough to eat whatever it looks like.

[Skykid]

Japan has always 'aped' western commercial output in most stuff they do, from games to music to anime etc.

You had me until this. It's hard to make cookie cutter shit music worse than America, but Japan has made it an artform. Anime -- that's kind of "their thing". It's like saying Europe does Soccer better and America does Basketball better. You didn't mention film, so I will: Again, awful. 3 worthwhile movies a year doesn't make you a force to be reckoned with. They were really just awesome at making games, but the lolis have invaded. Hardly "aped" the west in anything they did, as you put it.

</soap box>

Sorry, we're in agreement, it's just that I didn't bother to fill in the gaps surrounding the statement.
Anime is purely Japanese of course, but the content, at least when I was growing up, was heavily influenced by western popular themes (Mad Max, Blade Runner etc). Of course they made it their own and that's what makes it great (whereas now anime is purely their own... and it's crap - but that's a different thread). General commercialism in music/pop stars and idols etc is based on the same marketing structures and ideas as western stuff too - Of course it's the same all over asia, esp. in South Korea & China etc.

I hope that rounds off the point a bit. With regard to the Japanese claiming something and improving it, in most cases I think they excel at this - but it could just be a question of taste.

With regards to games, the Japanese are still are brilliant at making them, but their sights are on the dollar sign and they're reforming how they think about games and how games should be executed.
The truth is the mass majority of western punters don't know any different - they're all new gamers who will take a Harry Potter or X-men spin-off title to be as good as it gets. Unfortunately if it's those gamers Japan is trying to market to, then Inafune is going to see shit games on the horizon for a long time to come.

[neorichieb1971]

Why are most of you working on the basis that a company producing shit will be around for much longer?

If its producing shit it should be closed down ASAP imo. If you can't get a game to reach the 70% margin in gamers mag ratings you really shoudn't be in the business. Have you known of any other business where less than 70% is good enough?

Making simple games should be your starting point to success and work your way up from there. Preferably from XBlive and PSN.