Japanese gaming is dead

[Elixir]

That's because 95% of the time you're wrong

[neorichieb1971]

No it means my taste in games differs from 95% of you. I'm not the one buying 95% of these Xbox halo reach spin offs and Medal Of Honour fixes which Japan is supposedly trying to cash in on. I vote with my wallet and gaming is very cheap for me outside of PCB's and cabinets.

I liked Dead Space, Uncharted quite a bit. GOW3 was a disappointment. If you asked me when the last time I bought a Japanese game it was probably that kids golf game on the PS3, Gran Turismo prologue or street fighter iv. If I cast my memory back to 1996 almost every single game i bought was Japanese. Thats my track record which snugly fits the "Japanese gaming is dead" headline on this thread.

Its not a question of right or wrong, perhaps my reasons are wrong, but Japanese quality has gone down whilst Western gaming quality has gone up.. or trends have changed. They are the only 2 criteria I base this argument on.

[Elixir]

I don't think you understand how percentages work, either.

You bought games in the 90s because they looked interesting, not because "they were Japanese". Back then, no one cares who made the games, people just wanted good games. Now, people define games by developer, where they came from, what genre they are, how much production time allowed, and so on.

I've actually done the complete opposite. My childhood consisted mostly of western games: Fantastic Dizzy, Aladdin, Disney stuff, Cool Spot, etc. Now I pretty much stick to RPGs (none of which are western because they're all just "ok here is a world, off you go"), shmups, the occasional novel or the occasional port or remake.

The point is, this has nothing to do with Microsoft or Sony or whatever.

[ryu]

But really, fuck online gaming.

I can't wait for console games to be shitty beta versions that will be fixed via patches after the players have tested the games.

[honorless]

All I am saying is that when Japan controlled the arcades (when arcades were a big business) they controlled the larger portion of the industry as a whole. Microsoft pretty much turned that on its head. Since the Xbox's biggest positive is its online features I have made the statement above.

Japan doesn't give two shits about Microsoft. Or anything that isn't a handheld, pretty much.

Current-gen LTD sales, courtesy of Media Create and the dude who compiles their statistics and posts them on NeoGAF:
DS - 31,091,396
PSP - 15,265,542
Wii - 10,652,413
PS3 - 5,560,251
360 - 1,371,639

Microsoft killed Japanese gaming!

Anyway, Inafune seems obsessed with getting the West's approval even if that spells financial disaster for Capcom, and has been declaring the Japanese industry dead for years now. I guess I can understand why his statements are still getting press, but man. Kinda tired of hearing him complain.

Edit: oh god I am a moron how do I read numbers

[neorichieb1971]

Fair enough your entitled to that opinion.

Your not buying enough of those Japanese RPG's to save their heritage though. Perhaps its money that is the biggest killer. The hardware is so advanced the bill for making one RPG is proposterous to say the least. N

I respect your list of games going back through the ages, but I find them not to be pioneering games of the era. I think when the Japanese were making Mario 64, Resident evil 2 and Fzero GX they pioneered on high expectation. They no longer seem to release product that meets that expectation.. Gran turismo 5 is a quality product but where is it? Its taken them nigh on 4 years to complete the stupid thing. Namco are making lazy products, Capcom are milking SF again, Square make 2 games a year that don't seem to get that "classic" status anymore. Konami are a mixed bag at best.

Bayonetta was cool technically. I cannot think of something that deserves an accolade in the past 18 months from Japan that can test the Western front. I used to think Japanese were Gods at making games. There was a mystique quality and I always asked the question "Why can't western studios do games like this?" Now its the other way around.

[neorichieb1971]

All I am saying is that when Japan controlled the arcades (when arcades were a big business) they controlled the larger portion of the industry as a whole. Microsoft pretty much turned that on its head. Since the Xbox's biggest positive is its online features I have made the statement above.

Japan doesn't give two shits about Microsoft. Or anything that isn't a handheld, pretty much.

Current-gen LTD sales, courtesy of Media Create and the dude who compiles their statistics and posts them on NeoGAF:
DS - 31,091,396
PSP - 15,265,542
Wii - 10,652,413
PS3 - 5,560,251
360 - 1,371,639

Microsoft killed Japanese gaming!

Anyway, Inafune seems obsessed with getting the West's approval even if that spells financial disaster for Capcom, and has been declaring the Japanese industry dead for years now. I guess I can understand why his statements are still getting press, but man. Kinda tired of hearing him complain.

Edit: oh god I am a moron how do I read numbers

Those are shitty numbers compared to the numbers of PS2. Perhaps Japan has found modern gaming boring and not adopted the latest consoles at all. If so that explains a lot. So are Japanese mad on ipods and phone gaming now then?

[kernow]

Japanese gaming is dead? Not sure I really care, they can keep their dating sims and turn based 'J' RPG's thanks.

RE5 sucked also. MGS4 was pretty rad though.

[Skykid]

RE5 sucked also. MGS4 was pretty rad though.

MGS4 was good at the beginning, meh at the end. Much like RE5 in fact, although I preferred RE5 on the whole.

[mesh control]

Metal Gear Ray vs Rex ---> best part of the game

[PsychoGun]

MGS4 was epic, I just hated that fucking European night-alley sneak level when you were in disguise.

[PsychoGun]

MGS4 was epic, I just hated that fucking European night-alley sneak level when you were in disguise.

Gaming in general is dead.

The japanese companies do the same thing the western companies do, they rely too much on their proven franchises and don't make anything new until they run a series into the ground.

The only developers I even give a damn about these days are Valve, guerilla games, Naughty Dog, Konami and Cave. Everyone else isn't really doing anything groundbreaking, Halo and Gears of War have totally run their course IMO. I'd like to see iD release a new game as well, they've been gone far too long.

The american companies have been the innovators this generation IMO, the japanese companies seem to just emulate what we do, or make the same shit they've been making for the past 15 years since the PS1.

[Drum]

Konami? Guerilla games? Naughty Dog? wtf

EDIT: oh. oh

[neorichieb1971]

Well thats part of the problem isn't it? CV is like GOW, Medal of Honour is like any other military game, Need for Speed is like Burnout. Basically all the big franchises play like each other. Now they are blending tekken with SF and vice versa. I've seen these trends before, namely the shmup era of the early 90's when every game was like Gradius or Raiden and the genre got tired.

The problem is, without something to replace whats tired, we are left with nothing new coming out at all. All these gimmicky 3D things are just excuses to make us buy the same shit all over again with an extra dimension and a pair of glasses.

On that score its a worldwide problem. Gaming has been in the gutter for a long time. Only semi new gamers are finding the going good. For us that started in 95 with the Playstation era, 3D polygons just isn't cutting the mustard anymore. I know a lot of you will disagree, perhaps you are so fanatical about gaming.

[E. Randy Dupre]

I liked the bit where you presumed to talk for everybody else, then said you knew that most of everybody else would disagree with you. That was funny.

[Elixir]

Microsoft killed Japanese gaming!

Anyway, Inafune seems obsessed with getting the West's approval even if that spells financial disaster for Capcom, and has been declaring the Japanese industry dead for years now. I guess I can understand why his statements are still getting press, but man. Kinda tired of hearing him complain.

Pretty much this. MS has such little influence that it doesn't even matter what they do now. I don't even understand how the PS3 is still doing so well in comparison to the 360, especially considering that theres piss all available for the console and much less "Japanese style" games. Apart from the odd jRPG every few months.

But yeah, nobody should really try taking Inafune seriously, especially when the rest of Capcom don't seem to be doing so either. He's trying to push forward his opinion based on his position in the company, even though some other employees are directly against his ideas.]

I respect your list of games going back through the ages, but I find them not to be pioneering games of the era. I think when the Japanese were making Mario 64, Resident evil 2 and Fzero GX they pioneered on high expectation. They no longer seem to release product that meets that expectation.. Gran turismo 5 is a quality product but where is it? Its taken them nigh on 4 years to complete the stupid thing. Namco are making lazy products, Capcom are milking SF again, Square make 2 games a year that don't seem to get that "classic" status anymore. Konami are a mixed bag at best.

Who cares if they pioneered? Actually I'd say that they were the best Disney games ever made. I listed games which I enjoyed--and back then when I was oh, like, 8 years old--I didn't care what company they came from.

You have pretty high expectations for developers who owe you nothing.

[mesh control]

Need for Speed is like Burnout.

Someone's never played Shift.

[neorichieb1971]

You have pretty high expectations for developers who owe you nothing.

I don't owe them anything either. I work and keep on making money and if they want some of it they better please me or they get nothing. The point is Japanese Devs have gotten about 8% of my gaming money this generation where as they got about 60% less than 5 years ago. Besides I don't buy crap or games that I don't like even if they get 10/10 scores.

I liked the bit where you presumed to talk for everybody else, then said you knew that most of everybody else would disagree with you. That was funny.

What the part where I said Japanese devs started to lose the battle around the time of the 360 launch? Then saying that only 5% will agree? I knew at that point resistance was futile. I believe its ok to say your in disagreement, but to say i'm flat out wrong is a bit harsh. I didn't say what I was saying was fact, I said its what I believe. Even if the head of Capcom told you point blank why their business is struggling your opinion would differ somewhat. Because you think your right in your beliefs. If Japanese devs cannot find one good reason for you to buy something its because the quality is dropping or lacking.

Take Castlevania LOS. Its getting good scores across the board. Yet everyone here thinks its the biggest pile of shit since the last pile of shit. I played it, its not the best game ever but it has qualities. Are you right or am I? Perhaps its not me that has such high expectations afterall.

[Skykid]

Look, Richie doesn't like Microsoft and I can sympathise with him to some degree. When the original Xbox came out, I thought it was a fugly piece of shit and I wanted absolutely nothing to do with it whatsoever. I spent most of my time putting it down and taking the piss out of the control pad.
Even Iain Lee (TV personality) described the controller as looking like it was made "By a blind monkey with no hands", and that gave me lots of amusement.

But, I was working in the games sector, in retail, in the largest import games store in the country (maybe the world at that point, who knows), and we were inundated with everything Japanese and great on a daily basis for all formats past and present. I viewed Microsoft as a bad smell amongst all that, a rich corporation buying their way in - and so I had no respect for them.

The truth is though, Microsoft is just a name and Xbox is just a console. It also happens to be a very good one supported by very good games and developers and an excellent online service. There is a point where you need to be mature enough to accept a console for its value as a games machine rather than a brand.

Everyone thought Sony would storm the wagon with their third generation console, but its they who missed the wagon this time around and they who have the console with few endearing qualities and lack of dev support. Best to hang up allegiances and just go where the gaming is good these days - there's not a great deal to choose from anyway.

Take Castlevania LOS. Its getting good scores across the board. Yet everyone here thinks its the biggest pile of shit since the last pile of shit.

I think that's mostly me, but yeah, people are starting to see that it's basically bog-standard template modern gaming.

[E. Randy Dupre]

I liked the bit where you presumed to talk for everybody else, then said you knew that most of everybody else would disagree with you. That was funny.

What the part where I said Japanese devs started to lose the battle around the time of the 360 launch? Then saying that only 5% will agree?

No, this bit:

Only semi new gamers are finding the going good. For us that started in 95 with the Playstation era, 3D polygons just isn't cutting the mustard anymore. I know a lot of you will disagree,

I don't think I've ever seen anybody contradict themselves within the space of two sentences before.

[neorichieb1971]

I'm really good at writing things I don't mean to say. Probably because i'm working, get distracted, come back to the computer and find myself in a different state of mind.

I find that Wii buyers love gaming at the moment. People who love military games are loving gaming at the moment. People that loved Final Fantasy 3 and Castlevania are probably not having that great of a time gaming at the moment. Judging from peoples views on here, thats pretty much what I'm reading. People wouldn't be buying $1000 PCB's if todays gaming was ultra fantastic. Todays gaming industry is not catering for everyone anymore, its catering for people who just buy lots of games, wether or not they play them or not.

I'm also sticking to home console only. I don't even play handhelds so I wouldn't know anything about that market at all.

[honorless]

I'm also sticking to home console only. I don't even play handhelds so I wouldn't know anything about that market at all.

Yeah, this is an important point to make. I won't speak for Castlevania fans, but people who loved FF3 are having a grand old time right now provided they're willing to play on handhelds. Plenty of quality JRPGs, SRPGs and dungeon crawlers on DS and PSP. Platformers, music games, puzzle games, et cetera.

Since Japan went handheld, Western home console owners whose tastes lean Japanese are left disillusioned by a relatively barren gaming landscape and agreeing with Inafune in threads like this one. Then wailing and gnashing their teeth as familiar JP franchises turn up on those inferior, loathsome portables—Kingdom Hearts, Parasite Eve, Mega Man Legends.

I don't think the situation's going to change all that much in the future, either. I'm sure this topic will get made again next year after Inafune says the same thing at TGS 2011.

[TrevHead (TVR)]

Thats why we need to see more japanese companies developing and porting on the PC. Now all the mainstream console publishers have deserted it, PC gamers are crying out for good games. Hell if a translation of doujin ACT released on steam can make it to number 1 in the sales chart then theres a market there. The pc is cheap and easy to develop for with no restrictions made on it by the hardware and publishing companies with a broad range of mature gamers that arnt afraid to try new things

I know piracy is a big turn off (or excuse / boegyman) but its not as if handheld dont have the same problem. Im starting to think piracy is just a big excuse.

EDIT For example SSF4 PC with Capcom (yet again) not saying anything about ssf4 pc, they last week say the probably wont be porting it to the PC even if the arcade version is practically PC. And suprise suprise they played the piracy card even though SS4 PC was the best selling pc game last year which also made it the most pirated game aswell. The main reason for piracy been so high was that they published on the M$ Games for windows label which has the dumbest protection around. As any password from any Games for windows release works on most other titles on the label. Enabling someone to buy a dirt cheap game and use its PW to get the full game.

Capcom management just dont have a fucking clue do they

[professor ganson]

I'm also sticking to home console only. I don't even play handhelds so I wouldn't know anything about that market at all.

Yeah, this is an important point to make. I won't speak for Castlevania fans, but people who loved FF3 are having a grand old time right now provided they're willing to play on handhelds. Plenty of quality JRPGs, SRPGs and dungeon crawlers on DS and PSP. Platformers, music games, puzzle games, et cetera.

Since Japan went handheld, Western home console owners whose tastes lean Japanese are left disillusioned by a relatively barren gaming landscape and agreeing with Inafune in threads like this one. Then wailing and gnashing their teeth as familiar JP franchises turn up on those inferior, loathsome portables—Kingdom Hearts, Parasite Eve, Mega Man Legends.

I don't think the situation's going to change all that much in the future, either. I'm sure this topic will get made again next year after Inafune says the same thing at TGS 2011.

Nice post. I sure am glad that I have shifted to handhelds just as the Japanese market has.

[Drum]

Yeah, to be succinct and maybe a bit too pat: Japan went handheld, West went console.
Also, consoles became much more like pcs (Wii excepted - the Wii is the Wii), whereas handhelds became consoles (well, the PSP did - the DS is the DS). Pcs are in a weird place now - they have an amazing indie scene (many games of which are very 'console-like' - or similar to games on the MSX/C64/Speccy in the days where these distinctions didn't exist). The 'big' games are ones that - as yet - can't really be done on consoles for various reasons (partly related to input methods, but also politics/culture).
A lot (but not all) of the hysterics you see about the decline of Japan and the rise of the West can be attributed to this, and a lot of the perceptions are skewed by where people with these perceptions choose to do the bulk of their gaming - they pick a territory and let what software comes to it define the type of player they are. Which is totally pitiful, but that's homo sapiens for you.
Western games haven't magically become amazing in the last five years - they're just shifted to platforms with more visibility and marketability (ie. consoles). In doing so they've also become more 'console-like' - sometimes worse for it, sometimes better.
All this has to do with devs/pubs following the shrinking pool of money (shrinking because console HD games are hugely expensive and handheld games tend to sell less per game on average) any way they can, and many (but not all!) of the views of critics/champions of Japan/West have their views coloured by this. Very broadly speaking, the Japanese philosophy of design (inasmuch as there is a 'Japanese philosophy of design') benefits less from raw power and more from abstraction, whereas the West does it a bit differently. But at best that's a half-truth.

I try not to let retarded hang-ups about arbitrary bullshit like what kind of screen its on, or what country its from or whatever guide my interests and I just go where the content I value is - pc, consoles, handhelds (I stop short of phones just yet, but in the future who knows). This is very expensive and time-consuming and I do not recommend it but if the alternative is being a delusional, parochial tardo then I will be poor and lonely.

[evil_ash_xero]

These kind of topics are getting kind of old.

Bayonetta
Vanquish
Resident Evil 5
Initial D
Metal Gear 4
BlazBlue
Ninja Gaiden 2
Street Fighter 4 (Super)
Ninja Blade
Tatsunoku vs Capcom
No More Heroes
Metroid Other M
Mario Galaxy 1 and 2
Wario Shake
New Super Mario
Devil May Cry 4
Firtua Fighter 5
ALL the cave shit

Demon's Souls should be on there too.

I can see your point, but that's a handful of games amongst a sea of dirge (mostly from Nintendo and Capcom) and I'd be hardpressed to double the list (keeping the parameters within the last four years.) Some of the merit of those games is debatable too (God Hand >>>> Bayonetta)

And Valkyria Chronicles.

[Wenchang]

Japanese gaming isn't particularly shorter on innovation than the West(what a ridiculous idea), it has fallen short in terms of game development especially with regards to graphical fidelity. In the West, far more people are graphics whores and are critical about those aspects of games. Also, attempting to mimic reality is popular in the West. People in Japan still enjoy playing stuff like Dynasty Warriors or terrible looking Gundam games etc, another words, even the non-casuals don't care as much about graphical fidelity. But more to the point, Japan does not like making "realistic" looking games. So even a lot of the Japanese games with better graphical fidelity are lacking in "realism". If anything, the Japanese care more about game mechanics, much more so than in the West, especially from a single player perspective. That failure to copy and improve on how others use technology, and that disinterest in making games look more "realistic" is (mainly) why Japan has fallen behind. Generally game developers from those regions are going to have a similar perspective to the consumers in their respective locations as well. You want to point the finger, it's almost always at the consumers. This isn't the 1970s, the video game industry is hardly new, consumers are primarily who dictate what gets put out. The trends among the Japanese and American developers are primarily the result of their games reception in their native regions(and even more so if it's not a large developer like Nintendo or Capcom). More than anything what's happened is that the interests of Japanese and Western consumers have become more different than ever(this being the primary reason why Japanese sales are so hurt, not innovation, far from that, if innovation was the determining factor Sega wouldn't have turned into such a shadow of their former selves because a lack of innovation is the opposite of what actually led to that company bleeding money).

Also, American games in particular are so oriented towards iterating/improving on previous games(and by that I mean unrelated games, not like sequels, of course Japanese developers will do that), more so than the Japanese. Imagine if Monster Hunter was the huge thing in America, sure other Japanese games(like say MGS Peace Walker or Dynasty Warriors Strikeforce) have had influences here and there, but as far as actual copycats, there's God Eater and the upcoming Lord of Arcana, and that's about it as far as I know. This being a series that's over 6 and a half years old already and is one of the most popular in Japan(and I'm guessing THE most popular series that started in 2004 or later). In the West, there would be 20 games out that are blatant rip-offs and most other games in the same genre would be adopting the same control scheme as Monster Hunter. This kind of mindset from the developers does often lead to improvements(because plenty of copiers usually begin the process with the idea of making a better version of the game, and it leads to even a lot of the smallest details being explored and developed) whether it be graphics, or a minor mechanic or an improved online experience or whatever, but it's a completely anti-innovation mindset.

It has nothing to do with innovation. The North American market is utterly dominated by games copying other games, and consumers who want just about everything to control the same way, have a lot of the same design philosophies(how single player and multiplayer are used for example). Japan has a slightly different issue, in that it's freaking sequel/spin-off/expansion land. Freaking everything from the hugely popular games to the niche to the freaking old(how many Bomberman and Tetris games do you need?) gets milked forever, and consumers continue to buy(especially if it has Capcom, Nintendo, or Square's name slapped on it, or if its based on popular media like Gundam say). Honestly I don't think there's a large difference in innovation. That might become a trend as Japanese developers continue to misunderstand how to appeal to Western audiences with stuff like Quantum Theory(but who knows, maybe this kind of thing could be a valuable learning experience for Japanese developers), but as of now I don't think there's this vast difference in terms of innovation. And if there is any advantage there from the West, it's because of Europe, not First Person Shooter/God of War land.

As far as Japan goes, milking things like Monster Hunter makes good business sense enough, but perhaps some of the energy/resources that goes into sequels to less popular series and the like should be cut back and put into other areas. That shit works in Japan, but most of those game types don't sell as well in the West.

[Obiwanshinobi]

But more to the point, Japan does not like making "realistic" looking games.

Silent Hills 1-4 looked about as "realistic" as possible on their native hardware. Then there goes Pro Evolution Soccer/Winning Eleven. Vagrant Story felt short of photorealism due to the clumsy character animations and proportions rather than lack of the developer's will to make it look realistic. Metal Gear Solid series used to resemble live action films quite prominently. Then what about Gran Turismo, eh?
There is a tradition of pushing the hardware in the photorealistic direction in Japan as well.
Last but not least, Contra: Shattered Soldier says hello (not even particulary high-tech endeavour at the time). Under Defeat is aesthetically in this vein either (minus the cyber-bio-splatter): metal, mud and concrete. Gears of War, KillZone and the likes want to be in this day and age what Contra, Ikari Warriors etc. used to be in the past.

[TrevHead (TVR)]

due to rising costs in the game industry both pleasing the graphics whores and in marketing what gaming will be like in the future with the industry been less and less risk adverse (ie sequals and fps games) sometimes i wonder if the bubble will burst taking many of the big publishers with it. It would be nice to think that if it happened Japanese developers would rise to the top again and we would see a return to how things were in the 80s and 90s

ahh i can dream cant i?

[neorichieb1971]

Well if Microsoft's only sales pitch is the next Halo or Gears then I'm hoping they go bust first lol.

Japanese don't deserve to rise again under any circumstances based on recent performance. Cave are the best at what they do. I can't say that about any other Japanese studio.