Newbie to the genre, need a couple of suggestions

[Nemphtis]

The #1 reason people ask for this when they are relatively new to the genre is because they are still not very good at dodging bullets.

Decent players can get usually get to stage 5 of a random shmup with no prior knowledge of the game whatsoever. There are very few shmups that require memorization to make any progress.

So my best advice is play the shmups you like instead of trying to find something that really can't be done.

Or if you really don't want to play the same game twice, you can play every shmup only once, there are thousands of shmups around, so even if you do that you have quite a bit of time to get better.

I don't really have trouble getting to stage five of a random shmup on my first go without using continues, this isn't my problem. I'm a rather competitive gamer, I'm indeed new to shmups but I participate in FPS and fighting game tournaments often.

The reason I'm looking for games that randomly generate enemies is because I feel pre-defined patterns are less about skill and more about memorising enemy waves and boss bullet patterns in each stage. Once you've done this, it becomes a process of fine-tuning to optimise your high score. It's cool if you're into that, but I'm not. I'm looking for games where you start a new game and you don't know what's coming until it's in front of you, so that spot you used to stand still in during a boss fight is no longer a safe area to avoid the ocean of bullets in that encounter - you need to improvise and do it fast, and this aspect is very exciting to me.

I'm also not saying I want a shmup that doesn't require memorisation to progress through stages. I'm looking for a game that doesn't require memorisation to rack up high scores and compete with others on it, like I said I'm highly competitive and this applies to whatever I'm playing. I play ESP Galuda II for fun and can finish it without continues in both easy and normal at the moment, and I don't bother trying to learn enemy patterns, I just spam bullets and try and dodge whatever is thrown at me, that's all I focus on.

So yeah, I disagree about my preference relating to my being new and thus unskilled. I think my preference is more to do with the fact that I first took an interest in shmups after playing Kenta Cho's games along with Geometry Wars, basically most of the games I enjoyed in this genre were randomly generated. I think in the future if I have more free time to play games that focus more on memorisation, I will enjoy them a lot as I already enjoy many of Cave's shmups, it's just that trying to play a game that requires you to sink a lot of time into remembering patterns seems like a lost cause for a competitive fellow who has little free time.

Does anyone disagree that randomly generated enemy waves/bullets require more skill in comparison to titles like DoDonPachi and Perfect Cherry Blossom, which are bullet hell but have the exact same enemy waves and boss bullet patterns each time? I would love to debate this matter and perhaps correct any views I have which may not be entirely well thought out. It could help me appreciate such games better if you can convince me that pre-set patterns also have their merits.

[Aguraki]

Decent players can get usually get to stage 5 of a random shmup with no prior knowledge of the game whatsoever.

[Obiwanshinobi]

Does anyone disagree that randomly generated enemy waves/bullets require more skill in comparison to titles like DoDonPachi and Perfect Cherry Blossom, which are bullet hell but have the exact same enemy waves and boss bullet patterns each time? I would love to debate this matter and perhaps correct any views I have which may not be entirely well thought out. It could help me appreciate such games better if you can convince me that pre-set patterns also have their merits.

As far as I know, most bullet hell games happen to be all about fancy score systems rather than sheer density of bullet patterns. For instance, DoDonPachi scoring rewards chaining and saving your bombs. With randomised behaviour of the enemies, keeping your chain would be either too easy or impossible, rendering scores from different runs incomparable.

So yeah, I disagree about my preference relating to my being new and thus unskilled. I think my preference is more to do with the fact that I first took an interest in shmups after playing Kenta Cho's games along with Geometry Wars, basically most of the games I enjoyed in this genre were randomly generated. I think in the future if I have more free time to play games that focus more on memorisation, I will enjoy them a lot as I already enjoy many of Cave's shmups, it's just that trying to play a game that requires you to sink a lot of time into remembering patterns seems like a lost cause for a competitive fellow who has little free time.

I'll say it again: Zanac Special Version (or just plain old Zanac). Not exactly randomised, but altering its behaviour significantly depending on your performance.

[TrevHead (TVR)]

IMO randomness in a bullet hell boss battles just doesnt work if the bullets themselves are to randomised the patterns stop as it just ends up been a mess of tightly packed bullets. You could just randomise the order in which the bullet patterns play out but imo that wouldnt make that much difference as when a bullet pattern is mastered by the player what order they appear in doesnt really matter.

Apart from arena shmups and shmups like nomltest, pattern (and with taht comes memorisation) is a key componment of all scrolling shooters or any non vs multiplayer video game for that matter (EDIT especially for higher level play with serious competition EG retro arcade gamnes like pac man and donkey kong or even speed running Doom or megaman they all require the player to learn the game inside and out ). For most shmuppers memorisation is only half of the battle its actually doing it that the hard part which will require repeat play over and over again maybe so much that allot of the game is memorised anyway, just through practice.

[TrevHead (TVR)]

Decent players can get usually get to stage 5 of a random shmup with no prior knowledge of the game whatsoever.

I know how you feel, it sucks been a mere mortal

[Rob]

The reason I'm looking for games that randomly generate enemies is because I feel pre-defined patterns are less about skill and more about memorising enemy waves and boss bullet patterns in each stage. Once you've done this, it becomes a process of fine-tuning to optimise your high score. It's cool if you're into that, but I'm not. I'm looking for games where you start a new game and you don't know what's coming until it's in front of you, so that spot you used to stand still in during a boss fight is no longer a safe area to avoid the ocean of bullets in that encounter - you need to improvise and do it fast, and this aspect is very exciting to me.

Someone recommended Psikyo games. Do not play Psikyo games.

Does anyone disagree that randomly generated enemy waves/bullets require more skill in comparison to titles like DoDonPachi

Yes, because you're comparing a concept to a fully developed game. A variety of things contribute to how much skill a game requires and there are more skills than twitch reflexes.

[clp]

I would say raizing games are best for you not so much on teh scoring side but attack wise enemies are programmed to move and aim at you accordingly so a stage you have done a million times will still always be slightly different and require maximum attention , oh yeh and rank . I really dont get your interest in random generated enemies though , coming across like you think your on some higher level than memorisers or something .

[Obiwanshinobi]

The "move and aim at you" thing is the selling point of Raiden games. Also, features prominently in Image Fight and Xevious. Actually I believe you should give Image Fight a go. It's not what you are asking for, but well worth it just for the experience...

[clp]

good point i forgot about the raidens .

[Davey]

I love Kenta Cho's games as they do indeed seem randomly generated from what I could tell. Titanion is one of my personal favourites as it's one of the first shmups where I started racking up a semi-decent high score.

Titanion isn't as random as you think. Each level has a predetermined number of large enemies that always shoot the same pattern. I think their placement is somewhat random, though.

I would think bullet hell would be EXTREMELY difficult, if not impossible to have random swarms in. Maybe variable pre-programmed swarms?

I agree that it'd be very hard. I can think of these problems, at least:
1.) Impossible patterns (especially as multiple patterns overlap)
2.) Uneven difficulty between runs
3.) Simplistic, uninteresting enemies and patterns (to avoid problems 1 and 2)
4.) Uneven score potential between runs

However, random shmups are usually (always?) infinite, somewhat mitigating problem 4 since you can always score more by surviving longer.

The kinds of games you're looking for aren't really very common, because they tend to suck immense penis.
The main draw behind these games is competition and building skill at exploiting a set system. Putting random shit all over it isn't really conducive to that.

Score mechanics are still the same, even if enemies aren't quite the same. Yes, you will get boned with the occasional string of shitty patterns, but I think a random shmup could be consistent and fair if it was sophisticated enough.

The fact that only hobbyists really bother with them probably means that making an arcade quality one would either be:
1.) Impossibly hard, or
2.) Not worth the effort due to small demand

I can't speak for other people, but my scores in Parsec47 and nomltest generally follow the same trends as conventional shmups: my scores rise over time if I play regularly, decline if I don't, and remain fairly consistent in back-to-back runs. This leads me to believe that a full-time team of developers might be able to make something that's fair enough to be competition worthy, but I'm not a game developer so maybe I'm just naive.

Other genres have used randomization successfully (puzzle games, roguelikes), but of course shmups are a different beast. Even if it's possible, random shmups would certainly have a different feel and would be almost like a subgenre, kind of like arcade vs. sim racing, turn-based vs. real time strategy, JRPG vs. WRPG, etc. Superficially they're similar, but the differences are pretty significant once you really get into the genre.

The #1 reason people ask for this when they are relatively new to the genre is because they are still not very good at dodging bullets.

Decent players can get usually get to stage 5 of a random shmup with no prior knowledge of the game whatsoever. There are very few shmups that require memorization to make any progress.

Actually, that's part of the problem. As you get better, early stages either become boring or annoying, depending how seriously you're playing for score. Once you finally you get to the hard parts, it's a matter of try -> fail -> repeat (and repeat and repeat...). Sometimes that's fun, sometimes that feels more like work than fun, especially if you're stuck at a certain point.

Does anyone disagree that randomly generated enemy waves/bullets require more skill in comparison to titles like DoDonPachi and Perfect Cherry Blossom, which are bullet hell but have the exact same enemy waves and boss bullet patterns each time?

Different skill sets are required, so I don't think you could classify one type as being inherently harder than the other.

Random patterns can't be practiced, so they'd be harder than the same pattern in a conventional shmup. OTOH, when it comes to individual pattern difficulty, randomization has a lower upper limit. Beating the final boss in DDP DOJ without dying is nearly inhuman as is; randomized games could never match bullet patterns of that complexity and difficulty and still be humanly possible.

[Nemphtis]

A lot of replies since I last checked so won't be able to respond to everyone but here goes nothing.

As far as I know, most bullet hell games happen to be all about fancy score systems rather than sheer density of bullet patterns. For instance, DoDonPachi scoring rewards chaining and saving your bombs. With randomised behaviour of the enemies, keeping your chain would be either too easy or impossible, rendering scores from different runs incomparable. I'll say it again: Zanac Special Version (or just plain old Zanac). Not exactly randomised, but altering its behaviour significantly depending on your performance.

Doesn't this come down to what I was talking about, how these types of games seem to focus around memorising the entire game and then fine-tuning your high score by trying to optimise your actions in each stage to milk as many points as possible? I Googled Zanac when you first mentioned it but the visuals put me off a little and I checked out the easier to acquire suggestions first. I will look into buying it at some point if possible, if it's enjoyable then I can no doubt overlook the visual style.

IMO randomness in a bullet hell boss battles just doesnt work if the bullets themselves are to randomised the patterns stop as it just ends up been a mess of tightly packed bullets. You could just randomise the order in which the bullet patterns play out but imo that wouldnt make that much difference as when a bullet pattern is mastered by the player what order they appear in doesnt really matter.

This makes sense, I don't have much to add in response to it but I get what you mean and don't really disagree. There were some flaws in my ideal shmup that are now pretty apparent to me. I will either need to loosen my preference a bit more or start memorising Cave shooters, maybe then I won't suck so bad at Ikaruga.

I would say raizing games are best for you not so much on teh scoring side but attack wise enemies are programmed to move and aim at you accordingly so a stage you have done a million times will still always be slightly different and require maximum attention , oh yeh and rank . I really dont get your interest in random generated enemies though , coming across like you think your on some higher level than memorisers or something .

I will check out some clips of Raizing games, sounds interesting. I don't think I'm on a higher level than memorisers, like I said if people enjoy that aspect of the genre, and they clearly do, then I've no problem with that. This is just my personal preference and I initially created this topic to be advised on games that fit my preference, perhaps I'm just going through a phase in the shmup genre or only this particular aspect of the genre really interests me. Either way, my intentions aren't to try and be arrogant.

Titanion isn't as random as you think. Each level has a predetermined number of large enemies that always shoot the same pattern. I think their placement is somewhat random, though.

Good to know, I wasn't aware of this but it makes sense when I think about it. I wonder if that means what I'm looking for is a balance between the two, like the games a few suggested where it's not random but the enemy adapts to my actions to some degree keeping me on my toes?

I agree that it'd be very hard. I can think of these problems, at least:
1.) Impossible patterns (especially as multiple patterns overlap)
2.) Uneven difficulty between runs
3.) Simplistic, uninteresting enemies and patterns (to avoid problems 1 and 2)
4.) Uneven score potential between runs

However, random shmups are usually (always?) infinite, somewhat mitigating problem 4 since you can always score more by surviving longer.

This is true, and it has bought to my attention a big problem. As you said, the uneven difficulty and the potential of impossible patterns and overlaps mean that someone dying over an unlucky random pattern that's near impossible to dodge is just as bad if not worst as having to memorise patterns. This is probably the biggest flaw in my preference since it completely clashes with the entire point of why I want this. I should have noticed a lot earlier that in competitive play, a pre-defined pattern is much more viable in terms of balance compared to a random pattern that could easily kill even the best shmup players just because of an unlucky wave. I guess if you want to play to win and don't want people to moan about losing because of bad luck, playing and memorising games that have set patterns is the best way to go.

Score mechanics are still the same, even if enemies aren't quite the same. Yes, you will get boned with the occasional string of shitty patterns, but I think a random shmup could be consistent and fair if it was sophisticated enough.

The fact that only hobbyists really bother with them probably means that making an arcade quality one would either be:
1.) Impossibly hard, or
2.) Not worth the effort due to small demand

I can't speak for other people, but my scores in Parsec47 and nomltest generally follow the same trends as conventional shmups: my scores rise over time if I play regularly, decline if I don't, and remain fairly consistent in back-to-back runs. This leads me to believe that a full-time team of developers might be able to make something that's fair enough to be competition worthy, but I'm not a game developer so maybe I'm just naive.

Other genres have used randomization successfully (puzzle games, roguelikes), but of course shmups are a different beast. Even if it's possible, random shmups would certainly have a different feel and would be almost like a subgenre, kind of like arcade vs. sim racing, turn-based vs. real time strategy, JRPG vs. WRPG, etc. Superficially they're similar, but the differences are pretty significant once you really get into the genre.

If someone comes up with a pretty consistent random shmup (that's pretty much an oxymoron, heh) I would love to give it a spin. I guess it's all about balancing it so that it's not truly random, but gives the illusion of being random as best it can maybe? I've not played Warning Forever in a while but didn't that game's enemy ship evolve to counter your habits after each battle? That was good fun, but it's probably because I just played it and didn't try and figure out how to exploit the method it uses to select its next upgrade.

Actually, that's part of the problem. As you get better, early stages either become boring or annoying, depending how seriously you're playing for score. Once you finally you get to the hard parts, it's a matter of try -> fail -> repeat (and repeat and repeat...). Sometimes that's fun, sometimes that feels more like work than fun, especially if you're stuck at a certain point.

I agree and really find this annoying. I start to lose interest fast when I'm trying to beat a certain stage but keep dying around the same spot because I've not yet figured out how to avoid a certain pattern or something. Having to play the earlier parts again just to try and figure out a second time is not only boring, but you inevitably start slacking off and die a silly death, causing you to get even more frustrated over your own fail and going to play something else.

-------

This has now got me thinking about a multiplayer versus shmup and how something like that could work, or perhaps it already exists though it's more likely it's too awful an idea to ever do so. A game where you compete against a real player but there's enough balance there to make a victory feel like one and not just luck. Maybe having players on opposite ends of the screen shooting down identical enemy waves which then in turn affect their opponent in some way. I don't know, maybe if Player 1 destroys an asteroid, that asteroid's fragments fly towards Player 2 and vice versa. The goal would be to rack up a high score by destroying these asteroids and dodging the remains of ones blown up by your opponent. The skill would be in reacting to the enemy's destroyed asteroid patterns on the fly whilst coming up with your own chain combinations to try and corner them into crashing. The idea is probably full of holes that'd make it unplayable but man, sounds and looks awesome in my mind right now!

[Acid King]

This has now got me thinking about a multiplayer versus shmup and how something like that could work, or perhaps it already exists though it's more likely it's too awful an idea to ever do so. A game where you compete against a real player but there's enough balance there to make a victory feel like one and not just luck. Maybe having players on opposite ends of the screen shooting down identical enemy waves which then in turn affect their opponent in some way. I don't know, maybe if Player 1 destroys an asteroid, that asteroid's fragments fly towards Player 2 and vice versa. The goal would be to rack up a high score by destroying these asteroids and dodging the remains of ones blown up by your opponent. The skill would be in reacting to the enemy's destroyed asteroid patterns on the fly whilst coming up with your own chain combinations to try and corner them into crashing. The idea is probably full of holes that'd make it unplayable but man, sounds and looks awesome in my mind right now!

Twinkle Star Sprites.

[Nemphtis]

This has now got me thinking about a multiplayer versus shmup and how something like that could work, or perhaps it already exists though it's more likely it's too awful an idea to ever do so. A game where you compete against a real player but there's enough balance there to make a victory feel like one and not just luck. Maybe having players on opposite ends of the screen shooting down identical enemy waves which then in turn affect their opponent in some way. I don't know, maybe if Player 1 destroys an asteroid, that asteroid's fragments fly towards Player 2 and vice versa. The goal would be to rack up a high score by destroying these asteroids and dodging the remains of ones blown up by your opponent. The skill would be in reacting to the enemy's destroyed asteroid patterns on the fly whilst coming up with your own chain combinations to try and corner them into crashing. The idea is probably full of holes that'd make it unplayable but man, sounds and looks awesome in my mind right now!

Twinkle Star Sprites.

F*ckin' ay, I'm fourteen years too late.

Also, I had no idea what the hell was going on in that game most of the time, looks crazy.

[Acid King]

F*ckin' ay, I'm fourteen years too late.

Also, I had no idea what the hell was going on in that game most of the time, looks crazy.

It's a lot of fun and is good way to get people who don't really play shooters to play. The game is simple enough. Enemies fall in a handful of different formations, but the order they fall in is randomized. You just try to chain enemies and the larger your chain is, the more stuff gets dumped on your opponents play field. When you get your special bar maxed, you can make a boss appear on your opponents screen.

[nimitz]

I'm also not saying I want a shmup that doesn't require memorisation to progress through stages. I'm looking for a game that doesn't require memorisation to rack up high scores and compete with others on it

Such a game would mean a great player would play the game once and get close to the world record. Not to mention it would be impossible to design.


A shmup will never be like a pvp game where you have to adapt to what the opponent is doing.

High-level shmup competition does not involve memory, it assumes the players already played enough to know the game inside out, just like competitive racing requires the driver to know the track he races on, if you use save-states to practice, this "learning" phase isn't long at all. Then the factor that makes player x better than player y is how good is their execution. Which means how good they are at analyzing and dodging though patterns, how quick they are to adapt to "mistakes" they have made, how good they are at tap-dodging (psikyo )

Also shmups include randomness influenced by the player's actions, like messing up on leading masses of bullets and having to dodge through the stream, or getting caught on the corner while dodging a though boss pattern and having to dodge back in. Both of these examples would be avoided in a perfect run, but human error makes these happen and keep it somewhat interesting.

[Obiwanshinobi]

Doesn't this come down to what I was talking about, how these types of games seem to focus around memorising the entire game and then fine-tuning your high score by trying to optimise your actions in each stage to milk as many points as possible?

Er, that's Cave for ya. I don't think many people play Cave shmups not for the score an awful lot. If you don't like their score systems, why would you even play them? There are shmups where scoring is just tacked on the gameplay, and there are shmups built upon their scoring systems. Cave shmups are the latter breed. If you ignore the scoring in a modern bullet hell shmup, you're not likely to appreciate the intricacies of its design. Personally I believe a good shmup is about much more than its score system and usually end up playing Sonic Wings Special or one of Raidens rather than some bullet hell confetti blaster.

[msm]

I don't think many people play Cave shmups not for the score an awful lot. If you don't like their score systems, why would you even play them?

i don't like the scoring in dodonpachi or DOJ but have great fun playing them just dodging stuff and trying to survive, same for a lot of bullet hell games

[Nemphtis]

Do you guys just use your keyboard for playing shmups on PC by the way? I've found that the controls for iPhone ports of games from Cave and Kenta Cho are much easier for me to dodge bullets with at the moment in comparison to using my arrow or WASD keys on the keyboard. That ghosting issue is probably a big part of that preference though. Playing them on the iPad is a real treat too, but most importantly it ensures I don't rape my phone battery trying to dodge bullets.

I also have an eight-way arcade stick (MadCatz Tournament Edition) for my fighting games. Do most arcade shmups also use eight-way sticks?

[clp]

Do you guys just use your keyboard for playing shmups on PC by the way? I've found that the controls for iPhone ports of games from Cave and Kenta Cho are much easier for me to dodge bullets with at the moment in comparison to using my arrow or WASD keys on the keyboard. That ghosting issue is probably a big part of that preference though. Playing them on the iPad is a real treat too, but most importantly it ensures I don't rape my phone battery trying to dodge bullets.

I also have an eight-way arcade stick (MadCatz Tournament Edition) for my fighting games. Do most arcade shmups also use eight-way sticks?

Its preference some use sticks and pads some use keyboard although if you ever get the chance to play in an arcade your gonna need stick skills . Personally i use a ps2 usb adapter to pc and a custom built sanwa stick , most common though are probably the hrap sticks .

[chempop]

Have you tried Mars Matrix on Dreamcast? You could alternate between original mode and the remixed arrange mode, if your short term memory is lousy it might feel random enough for ya! Regardless the game is great, one of the best imho.

I didn't read the whole thread, but Raizing games are sure to be worth looking into. Dimahoo, Battle Garegga, Soukyugurentai, and Ibara are brutal games that get more difficult the "better you do" (aka Rank).

Touchscreen controls feels like cheating to me, I used to be most comfortable with a pad, but have always used sticks for fighting games. Now I am a convert and am best equiped with a Real Arcade Pro by Hori with Seimitsu parts. Generally speaking it's the most popular setup, and the tv should be directly behind it of course

[Davey]

I'm also not saying I want a shmup that doesn't require memorisation to progress through stages. I'm looking for a game that doesn't require memorisation to rack up high scores and compete with others on it

Such a game would mean a great player would play the game once and get close to the world record.

Not necessarily. There's still learning involved in randomized games. I doubt the most skilled gamer in the world could pick up, say, Geometry Wars 2 and get a world class score on their first try. You have to learn how the enemies behave, which ones need to be taken out before others, which to milk, when to use the black holes, etc.

nomltest is actually a good example since it was a STGT selection. Even sikraiken couldn't top shiftace's score in a week's time, and I'm sure sikraiken has a lot more raw talent than shiftace (not that shiftace is bad; he certainly crushes me in any game he plays seriously). I did pretty well that week, getting #8. I only get in 30's on a typical week, and my general shmup skills aren't great by this board's standards. However, most players weren't too familiar nomltest before that week, and without replays to study they weren't able to catch up as quickly. Experience still counts in games like that. (Admittedly, I think a lot of people were like "fuck this game" and didn't try as hard).

Not to mention it would be impossible to design.

We don't know that for sure. It'd certainly be extremely hard, though

Do you guys just use your keyboard for playing shmups on PC by the way?

Input devices are almost a religious debate around here, but usually the conversation boils down to this: use what you like. There are good players using keyboards, sticks, and pads. I think quality is important too; even though I prefer a good stick, I'd much rather use a good pad than a shoddy stick. Although I'd prefer anything over a keyboard.

[nimitz]

I'm also not saying I want a shmup that doesn't require memorisation to progress through stages. I'm looking for a game that doesn't require memorisation to rack up high scores and compete with others on it

Such a game would mean a great player would play the game once and get close to the world record.

Not necessarily. There's still learning involved in randomized games. I doubt the most skilled gamer in the world could pick up, say, Geometry Wars 2 and get a world class score on their first try. You have to learn how the enemies behave, which ones need to be taken out before others, which to milk, when to use the black holes, etc.

I was pointing out the logical flaw, he's "looking for a game that doesn't require memorisation to rack up high scores". What you are describing is a form of memorization and is also present in most (if not all) shmups. It's something you could call situational memorization.

[Nemphtis]

When it comes to arcade games, I like to use the original controller so that if I go Trocadero some time, I don't make up excuses as to why I suck at it more than I do at home. Assuming these games use the same eight way stick as fighting games do, I already have the necessary hardware. Pad isn't too bad though, I used it to play Ikaruga a few times and it's pretty decent. I think unlike fighting games, my controller preference really isn't a big deal, I don't mind using any of them but I would stick to the arcade controls just out of that extra benefit of familiarly when actually playing on a cabinet.

I also received my iPad yesterday and moved my iOS shmups over to that. I was really disappointed that the majority of my iPhone games were not yet optimised for iPad. ESP Galuda II and DoDonPachi Resurrection look sweet enough on the iPhone screen, if they were in 'HD' as the iOS developers seem to call it, they'd look even more bad-ass. Even Facebook isn't iPad optimised which I wasn't expecting. Still, really happy with my new toy even though I still believe it's too expensive for what's on offer with the device.

Hopefully in a year or two I will be confident enough with my skills in this genre to start actively trying to top people's high scores. I think for now however, I will focus on understanding what carries over from game to game, learning those elements first, and then finding some titles I like enough to try and memorise.

[Davey]

I was pointing out the logical flaw, he's "looking for a game that doesn't require memorisation to rack up high scores". What you are describing is a form of memorization and is also present in most (if not all) shmups. It's something you could call situational memorization.

Ah, ok. I guess what Nemphtis and I are looking for are games where practice is necessary to build general skill and intuition, not learn specific levels and patterns. Sure, they both require practice, but the learning process is a different experience.

[Nemphtis]

I was pointing out the logical flaw, he's "looking for a game that doesn't require memorisation to rack up high scores". What you are describing is a form of memorization and is also present in most (if not all) shmups. It's something you could call situational memorization.

Ah, ok. I guess what Nemphtis and I are looking for are games where practice is necessary to build general skill and intuition, not learn specific levels and patterns. Sure, they both require practice, but the learning process is a different experience.

Yeah, that pretty much sums it up. I guess it's because I come from playing genres like FPS and fighting games, where memorisation is something simple like learning the map, but you cannot memorise what your opponents are going to do. Shmups rarely seem to be about head to head, so when fighting the AI you of course do need to memorise what they're going to do, because you can.

[MoogleMuffins]

Old thread, but I think the idea of shmups with random elements is fantastic.

Fractal Fighter is an amazing proof of concept for randomly generated shmups: http://www.caiman.us/scripts/fw/f2950.html (freeware, ~1MB)

Basically it seems as though the enemies themselves are randomly generated fractals and their firing points are at the end of the parts of the fractal that stick out from the main body. It's actually surprisingly fun despite it's monochromatic graphics and basic gameplay.

Very rough around the edges, but the randomly generated bullet patterns often end up having a similar feel to the bullet patterns found in traditional arcade shmup boss fights. I would love to see a game where you have full levels built around this idea... maybe with random powerups and random smaller fractal-based enemies leading up to a big fractal boss... of course with awesome music as well (it would also be cool if the music was randomly generated, but I think that may be asking too much).


Anyways, if we want to see sophisticated, randomly generated bullet patterns I think fractals would make it possible.

[Moniker]

I would love to see a game where you have full levels built around this idea... maybe with random powerups and random smaller fractal-based enemies leading up to a big fractal boss...

I'm not sure about the math, but I think Inside a Star-filled Sky uses this basic idea.

[ChainsawGuitarSP]

~*~Syvalion!!~*~

[TrevHead (TVR)]

Realm of the Mad God, ok its a mmo but still an intresting beast

Reading this thread again just makes me want to play an updated version of Twinkle Star Sprites with online multiplayer support

[Zorator]

Any version of Zanac(MSX, NES, PS1), as well as Aleste(MSX, SMS) and Aleste 2(MSX) feature dynamic bullet and enemy patterns. Not exactly random but you can make the game change up from session to session so it's not as memorization oriented.

The PS3(and presumably 360) version of Space Invaders Infinity Gene has a mode where it generates levels from audio tracks saved to the hard drive. The regular static stages are also fantastic and I highly recommend it. It has a bunch of pretty unique ship types so much variety to be had there too.

Twinkle Star Sprites is a bit of a different vein because it's a 2 player versus game, but it's really good if you have someone to play against. Avoid the Saturn version because it slows down way too much when things get intense.