I just play Layer Section (Rayforce), and she is so fine

CMoon · Post by **CMoon** » Mon Jul 18, 2005 4:41 pm

llabnip wrote: I normally don't care about graphics, but everything seems a overly large (especially your ship!) and pixelated in-game - not the best effort given the graphics quality of other Saturn shooters which are more visually appealing.

I don't remember how the graphics are in yoko, but I remember that simply for gameplay this was another one of those 'must play in tate' games since the top of the screen gets lopped off. It may be in the conversion to yoko, the sprites are a little more pixally as well.

jp · Post by jp » Mon Jul 18, 2005 4:45 pm

llabnip wrote:I'm not a big fan of Layer Section (aka Galactic Attack, aka Rayforce). I can appreciate the game and understand why others like it, but it's been very much a miss for me. I've really wanted to like it - and have given it 20+ hours now but it's just not clicking. So I put it down and haven't touched it in 6 months. I normally don't care about graphics, but everything seems a overly large (especially your ship!) and pixelated in-game - not the best effort given the graphics quality of other Saturn shooters which are more visually appealing. Lock-ons are a great idea - but Sokyu does it much better. Rank system isn't as harsh as... say... Garegga, but it's still more than I care for (but I can overlook this if the rest of the game was stunning). The ship is floaty - if you move off-center and let go of the joystick, the ship drifts back to center slightly... this is a major no-no. And the level design just doesn't inspire (though I like how the ship moves through the layers of the atmosphere and eventually into the ground below). Of all the Ray-games, I prefer Raystorm but none are on my top-25 list.

Music, however, is top-notch. Zuntata is great.

I pretty much agree with everything said there (except the Raystorm bit, ick...).

But yeah, Rayforce would've been awesome if it wasn't for random stupid shit like the auto-centering.

SheSaidDutch · Post by **SheSaidDutch** » Mon Jul 18, 2005 6:22 pm

I'm not a fan of the ray series, too much focus is on laser locking.

professor ganson · Post by **professor ganson** » Mon Jul 18, 2005 7:07 pm

zinger wrote:
professor ganson wrote:With respect to the graphics, my point is just that the game looks more like a Genesis than a Saturn shmup with respect to the level of detail, the number of sprites, and the artistic style. I assume this isn't a terribly controversial point, but it also doesn't count seriously against the game's quality. I guess I would say that the graphics are a bit underwhelming, not a big deal.
Argh, Taito redefined and set the standard for the use of graphical effects such as parallax, scaling and rotation with this game (1993, FFS!). Truly amazing IMO. Do play the game in TATE mode, otherwise some effects will be missing.

This is very interesting to me. Can you give me an example of the use of parallax in a shmup (doesn't have to be Layer Section)? My main area of research is sense-perception. I'd also be interested in anything you have to say about scaling and rotation. Very cool topic.

captain ahar · Post by **captain ahar** » Mon Jul 18, 2005 7:13 pm

auto-centering. hellish rank for a slightly better than average player (i have yet to play garegga).

anyway, i love it to pieces. the thing still amazes me with all the effects shooting around. i think i have gotten as far (maybe farther) as the boss of the underground highway level (after fissure of consciousness i think).

llabnip · Post by **llabnip** » Mon Jul 18, 2005 7:23 pm

professor ganson wrote:This is very interesting to me. Can you give me an example of the use of parallax in a shmup

Thunderforce 4 (Megadrive/Genesis). Tons of parallax.

dai jou bu · Post by **dai jou bu** » Mon Jul 18, 2005 7:24 pm

Well, the game clicked with me a lot. After playing a lot of Raystorm and Raycrisis, I realized that this was the best game in the series because the stage transitions were flawless, the music fit well, and all of the 3D effects done in polygons in the sequels are completely done with sprites while still maintaining its sense of 3D depth. And all of this was done in 1993!

I can also understand why some people don't like it as it requires more memorization that improvising on the spot. The only thing I don't like about this game is the rank, since the game becomes unbearably difficult the longer I don't die. Maybe I should start playing this game again just to prove that it can be 1-lifed.

I don't even notice the recentering everyone keeps talking about in this game, which was painfully obvious in the sequels. Maybe it's because I'm used to maneuvering around while taking recentering into consideration. =\

TGK · Post by **TGK** » Mon Jul 18, 2005 9:05 pm

professor ganson wrote:
zinger wrote:
professor ganson wrote:With respect to the graphics, my point is just that the game looks more like a Genesis than a Saturn shmup with respect to the level of detail, the number of sprites, and the artistic style. I assume this isn't a terribly controversial point, but it also doesn't count seriously against the game's quality. I guess I would say that the graphics are a bit underwhelming, not a big deal.
Argh, Taito redefined and set the standard for the use of graphical effects such as parallax, scaling and rotation with this game (1993, FFS!). Truly amazing IMO. Do play the game in TATE mode, otherwise some effects will be missing.
This is very interesting to me. Can you give me an example of the use of parallax in a shmup (doesn't have to be Layer Section)? My main area of research is sense-perception. I'd also be interested in anything you have to say about scaling and rotation. Very cool topic.

Parallax was used rather widely before Layer Section. Even some NES games has it, to simulate depth-of-field. Crisis Force and Musha come to mind.

Scaling and rotation is used a lot to simulate enemies swirling in from below, and it also was done before Layer Section. Recca (a NES game), has enemies swirling up from below.

But Layer Section uses 2D parallax/scale/rotation to simulate 3D effect to such a degree that has not been done before or since. And it was done so successfully that I don't think this game can be improved if it was done entirely in polygons. One of the most complex and well designed bit is the scene where you are trying to save a few friendly battleship being flanked by the enemy armada in stage 2.

zinger · Post by **zinger** » Mon Jul 18, 2005 11:10 pm

TGK wrote:But Layer Section uses 2D parallax/scale/rotation to simulate 3D effect to such a degree that has not been done before or since. And it was done so successfully that I don't think this game can be improved if it was done entirely in polygons. One of the most complex and well designed bit is the scene where you are trying to save a few friendly battleship being flanked by the enemy armada in stage 2.

Thank You!

professor ganson · Post by **professor ganson** » Mon Jul 18, 2005 11:42 pm

zinger wrote:
TGK wrote:But Layer Section uses 2D parallax/scale/rotation to simulate 3D effect to such a degree that has not been done before or since. And it was done so successfully that I don't think this game can be improved if it was done entirely in polygons. One of the most complex and well designed bit is the scene where you are trying to save a few friendly battleship being flanked by the enemy armada in stage 2.
Thank You!

Yeah, thanks a lot. As I said, this is very interesting to me, and it makes me want to go back and play LS just to take note of these techniques.

I wish I had Thunder Force 4. Thanks for the reference, llabnip.