Why shmups are such a niche genre

[EinhanderZwei]

some of the worst offenders like Xenon 2 just get on my nerves pretty rapidly.

BTW, I'm glad someone else remembers this piece of shit

[Taylor]

It depends a little on the definition of "casual gamer" of course, but the average FPS or RPG is too involved a game to be considered casual as such.

I think this is testament to what an undescriptive label "casual" is. For some it means games like Popcap, others use it for thrill-rides like Uncharted, and others use it as an insult for games they don't like because they are simpler. Hardcore can also mean everything from a game that is not by Popcap to poopsock MMO players.

retarded idiot noob moron

This wasn't really needed.

[gray117]

The downside of being niche is that some supporters can get a little too aggressively defensive ... [even if they're kind of right] ... I know, welcome to the internet too...

The fact that people make 'demands' of games (without much, if any, relevant understanding) is something that I find generally amusing; usually this is just a petulant follower of fashion. Having said that - no more or less legitimate than many other consumers.

Their natural inclination will be towards a balance of the most immersive and accessible forms of experience. Clearly the shmups genre is not situated favourably within this balance.

In some ways shmups have become a bit like catwalk fashion at this stage - not on the high street, a bit elitist, not a good value proposition for most people, sometimes not practical, and sometimes a really good show, but also just aesthetically weird for lots of people. Respected by some people in the know, resented or poo'ed by the common consumers who secretly covert the idea of being the 'most bestest' [player/consumer/critic].

... took the metaphor a bit far... But, I certainly think there is scope for the genre to engender more respect and recognition even if it is destined to be niche.

Rpgs as a nebulous classification do have more genre cross overs than shmups do - particularly within the realms of social play and tracking progression... Their popularity stemming from an overhead/first person story formats... Not necessary casual but certainly more current.

[Dragoforce]

Blahblah...hardcore..blahblah...casual...blahblah...member with less than 30 posts flaming each other.. blahblah

[monkeyman]

hi, i read about 4 pages of this thread before i was motivated into adding my 2 cents to this discussion:

a) i hate bullet-hell. i don't understand as to how (and why) someone can get kicks out of wanting a game to be nearly impossible. i don't define bullet hell games as "games". there isn't much "fun" to be had from having the crap beaten out of you and i am certainly not a sadomasochist.

As someone who was brought up on 80s shmups and only recently discovered bullet hell. I can tell you that it's a misconception they are harder than older shmups. Play something like Gradius then try DoDonPachi or something and you will see that the older games are often more unforgiving and feel far less fair. Bullet hells just seem harder when watching a demo or you tube viedeo.

that's like saying that the only games one needs to play are those spawned by atari. man, i don't know about you... but pong (as the first genre) gets pretty old (pretty fast) when comparing it to modern "classics".

oh: and i never did like pac-man (just in case you traditionalists wanted to know).

you guys seem to think that just because something is old-school, that it has earned the right to not evolve and to look like shit (just like the wii). as if that makes you think that you lot are all "hardcore".

i'll take whatever it is that you guys are having...

Also why are all shmup fans 'traditionalists?' I don't get caught up on how games 'aren't like they used to be' I just enjoy the genre. I also enjoy FPSs RPGs and pretty much any other genre you care to mention (except maybe japanese dating sims).


Still, was a nice adult discussion we were having on this thread here for a while - was nice while it lasted.

[BIL]

Relax, everyone. It's just the yearly visit from a media darling-fixated noob bearing prophecies of doom for the genre. Somehow we'll survive, I'm sure.

[RoninBuddha]

your mom is a niche genre

[CptRansom]

your mom is a niche genre

/thread

[xris]

I introduce shmups by playing co-op with friends when they're over, in a hey lets play through this real quick way. They always have fun, some have come around. Getting a crt to tate added mystique.

[TMR]

It depends a little on the definition of "casual gamer" of course, but the average FPS or RPG is too involved a game to be considered casual as such.

I think this is testament to what an undescriptive label "casual" is. For some it means games like Popcap, others use it for thrill-rides like Uncharted, and others use it as an insult for games they don't like because they are simpler. Hardcore can also mean everything from a game that is not by Popcap to poopsock MMO players.

That's true... i've always used it to refer to Popcap, Big Fish and so forth and never as an insult as such because i've got a fair bit of respect for what goes into a casual game, they're usually very well presented, solidly built and, for the market they're aimed at, worryingly addictive. My fiancee is a hardcore casual gamer, she plays 'em for hours! =-)

[TMR]

some of the worst offenders like Xenon 2 just get on my nerves pretty rapidly.

BTW, I'm glad someone else remembers this piece of shit

Xenon 2 is pretty much the archetype as far as Euroshmups go, ticking several boxes for inertial control, overblown shop, bad balance on the weapons, energy bar for the ship and a dance soundtrack. i played it, sort of enjoyed it a little but then i discovered Battle Squadron and all bets were off.

[gs68]

a) i hate bullet-hell. i don't understand as to how (and why) someone can get kicks out of wanting a game to be nearly impossible. i don't define bullet hell games as "games". there isn't much "fun" to be had from having the crap beaten out of you and i am certainly not a sadomasochist.

Just because a game is bullet hell doesn't mean it's 100% virutally impossible. Bullet hell games typically have at least two things going that make them somewhat less hellish than many make them out to be: smaller hitboxes and slower bullet speed. Occasionally there is a feature that lets you bypass some patterns, such as Cave games' bullet cancelling or Giga Wing's bullet reflecting.

I can 1CC Futari BL Original (to the shock of someone ignorant of the genre), can complete 4 stages of DoDonPachi on one credit, and have gotten halfway through Touhou EoSD's extra stage boss, but I can barely get to the 3rd stage of Raiden, and I've yet to see Truxton II's stage 2 boss.

[Herr Schatten]

some of the worst offenders like Xenon 2 just get on my nerves pretty rapidly.

BTW, I'm glad someone else remembers this piece of shit

Xenon 2 is pretty much the archetype as far as Euroshmups go, ticking several boxes for inertial control, overblown shop, bad balance on the weapons, energy bar for the ship and a dance soundtrack. i played it, sort of enjoyed it a little but then i discovered Battle Squadron and all bets were off.

I agree that Battle Squadron is infinitely better (speaking of the original version, of course, not the butchered Mega Drive port), but Xenon 2 (again: let us not speak of the console ports) is actually quite decent for what it is: a shooting game for people who don't play shooting games, who, I might say, don't even like shooting games. Think about it: It has high production values, it's easy to finish even for unskilled players, and it gives them a sense of (fake) depth through the shop mechanic. In a nutshell it's pretty much all replayme is asking for - in 1989.

[TMR]

I agree that Battle Squadron is infinitely better (speaking of the original version, of course, not the butchered Mega Drive port)

Oh, agreed entirely - even having Rob Hubbard do the Megadrive soundtrack didn't help any! Xenon 2 is marginally better on the Megadrive to my mind, simply because it has a better framerate.

but Xenon 2 (again: let us not speak of the console ports) is actually quite decent for what it is: a shooting game for people who don't play shooting games, who, I might say, don't even like shooting games. Think about it: It has high production values, it's easy to finish even for unskilled players, and it gives them a sense of (fake) depth through the shop mechanic. In a nutshell it's pretty much all replayme is asking for - in 1989.

Ah... glad to be of service, in that case. =-)

[Jeneki]

your mom is a niche genre

Damn stright!

Screw you casual mainstream loli credit feeders. MILFs are playing for SCORE.

[lgb]

I'm afraid the lolis are the ones playing for score

[kid aphex]

games aren't casual/hardcore
people are casual/hardcore

[captpain]

games aren't casual/hardcore
people are casual/hardcore

What are you trying to say? You don't see a fundamental difference in what the game demands of the player between Wii Tennis and DoDonPachi Dai Ou Jou?

[TrevHead (TVR)]

some of the worst offenders like Xenon 2 just get on my nerves pretty rapidly.

BTW, I'm glad someone else remembers this piece of shit

I blame Xenon 2 for me passing over shmups almost completly as a kid, I only bought it for the MD cos i like the soundtrack when i actually got chance to play it, it was the lamest, slowest sack of shit ive ever played. Such a bad experience that whenever i came across a vert shmup in a shop or mag i would quickly pass it over and look at the next thing.

The only other shmups i really played as a kid were r-type (played a few times) in the arcade and gynoug / wings of wor (rented it for 2 or 3 days) for the MD both horis that i quite enjoyed but never had chance to enjoy them indepth due to not owning them and thus been able to spend any length of time with them. Apart from playing the odd game of space invaders or galaga i didnt bother playing a proper shmup until nomltest a year or two ago and then until 6 months ago when i decovered Ite7's 20 best doujin shmups video on you tube (cool vid, he rocks), got hooked on BWR and joined this forum as a new convert to the way of shmuppery (makes the sign of a cross then holds out arms like a plane while running around the sofa chanting pew pew pew 1CC is the way pew pew)

I might of been advocating the casual shmup for casual gamers is fine (as long as we get the proper shit aswell) cos this might draw in ppl into playing real shooters. But considering what replayme actually wants, which is a updated Xenon 2 then this im gonna change my opion as itll scare many gamers away from shmups for life.

I still think any gamer who doesnt like the more mainstream shmups out there atm should instead look towards the indie / doujin / freeware domain cos (if crap graphics can be forgiven) there are all kinds of shooters out there of all difficulties, hardcore and casual

[lgb]

and others use it as an insult for games they don't like because they are simpler.

I'd say button 1 for shot and button 2 for bomb is pretty simple but maybe I dunno

[Shatterhand]

BTW, I'm glad someone else remembers this piece of shit

Xenon 2 is pretty much the archetype as far as Euroshmups go, ticking several boxes for inertial control, overblown shop, bad balance on the weapons, energy bar for the ship and a dance soundtrack. i played it, sort of enjoyed it a little but then i discovered Battle Squadron and all bets were off.

I agree that Battle Squadron is infinitely better (speaking of the original version, of course, not the butchered Mega Drive port), but Xenon 2 (again: let us not speak of the console ports) is actually quite decent for what it is: a shooting game for people who don't play shooting games, who, I might say, don't even like shooting games. Think about it: It has high production values, it's easy to finish even for unskilled players, and it gives them a sense of (fake) depth through the shop mechanic. In a nutshell it's pretty much all replayme is asking for - in 1989.

And Battle Squadron was also developed by an European team. I remember when I had Battle Squadron on Amiga back as a kid, I always believed it was an arcade port, not an original Amiga game. Soundwise is also one of the most impressive games I've ever played, the music is awesome and it has some of the best sound effects I ever heard in any game.




And getting back to the topic, like someone already said, for the genre to be mainstream again, you would have to basically kill it. I can see a 20hrs + game, with long cutscenes, a envolved plot full of holes (like most modern games), a health bar and instant health recovery if you don't shoot for a few seconds, long levels with very good backgrounds, but you are being attacked by 2 or 3 type of enemies over and over and over, sections where instead of you controlling your avatar, you just have to press some buttons being shown on screen and it will do some amazing tricky stuff AUTOMATICALLY, saving checkpoints, billions of different weapon that are actually all the same except more powerful (while enemies also will get more hit points, which makes all of this pointless), some unlockable content, and an option to play the game again after you finish it but retaining your weapons, making an easy game even easier for some stupid reason.


shit, this sounds like 90% of the games released the last 5 years. All the aspects of "modern gaming" could be easily translated to shmups, but they would suck hard.... and I honestly think they would at least get some good reviews. I mean, endless pressing attack button on God of War until all enemies are dead is hardly more complex than dodging bullets and blowing up stuff. Just add some amazing production values, long levels, a evolved plot, a retard diffculty level and you are ready to go.

[lgb]

I can see a 20hrs + game, with long cutscenes, a envolved plot full of holes (like most modern games), a health bar and instant health recovery if you don't shoot for a few seconds, long levels with very good backgrounds, but you are being attacked by 2 or 3 type of enemies over and over and over, sections where instead of you controlling your avatar, you just have to press some buttons being shown on screen and it will do some amazing tricky stuff AUTOMATICALLY, saving checkpoints, billions of different weapon that are actually all the same except more powerful (while enemies also will get more hit points, which makes all of this pointless), some unlockable content, and an option to play the game again after you finish it but retaining your weapons, making an easy game even easier for some stupid reason.

oh you are silly man, it's 80~100+ and has been since... maybe the very end of the 90s? 20hrs+ is still too short for people, even 40hrs is a bit short

[Shatterhand]

Really? I finished Mass Effect with 23 hrs of game... and I thought it was a mainstream super-uper hyped everyone loves it game.

Though to be honest, I didn't do all side quests. I didn't even get the "Finsihed the majority of the game" achievement.

And come on, Metal Gear Solid 3 was done in less than 20 hours for sure. I remember very well finishing the 1st Metal Gear Solid for the first time in 8 hours (The 2nd time was less than 5 hours for sure). It can't be *that* bad 80-100 hours is maybe for RPGs? I don't play many RPGs... if you consider Mass Effect an RPG, I think it's the first RPG I actually finished since.... ooh.. Chrono Cross I guess.

[Taylor]

I find mainstream titles are getting shorter opposed to longer.

games aren't casual/hardcore
people are casual/hardcore

All games are made with a target demographic.

[professor ganson]

games aren't casual/hardcore
people are casual/hardcore

This is wrong, but it gets at something interesting.

Even within a niche genre, there is room for a distinction between the games which aim at the hardcore devotees of the genre and those that aim at the more casual participants and the distinction isn't just about difficulty or complexity. SRPGs are a niche genre. Rondo of Swords is hardcore; Disgaea is not. And the difference here isn't about difficulty or complexity. There are a bunch of factors that can cause a game to be hardcore and these factors will differ from genre to genre, but here is a definition of the hardcore/causal distinction as it applies to niche titles:

casual games in a niche genre are ones that target and capture more casual participants in the genre
hardcore games in a niche are ones that target and capture (mainly) hardcore devotees of the genre

I'm probably being sloppy here because it's early on Sunday morning. My point is just that there are hardcore games, but they are hardcore because of their relation to hardcore players. What makes a player hardcore (in a genre)? Presumably it's a matter of (statistically defined) obsessiveness relative to other gamers. It should be added that there is some room for a distinction between hardcore players of a genre and hardcore fans of a genre. With all the plush dolls, models, pillow cases, etc., it is possible (if rare) to be a hardcore fan of a genre without playing so much.

[Exarion]

, it is possible (if rare) to be a hardcore fan of a genre without playing so much.

Touhou fandom. About half of them have never played the games but write a lot of fanfiction.

[kid aphex]

games aren't casual/hardcore
people are casual/hardcore

EVERYONE ON THIS FORUM DISAGREES WITH ME.

nothing about a game makes it inherently hardcore or casual.
any game can be approached from any mindset regardless of its gameplay.
peggle can be played to death and mastered. so can wii sports.
likewise, i can credit feed Batrider or Ikaruga just to hear the music.

thanks to digital distribution and the availability of games on any/every medium, all sorts of games/mechanics are being introduced to all sorts of audiences, and people are playing games for all different reasons.

i've been on these forums since way before 2005...this genre makes itself niche. discussion of shmups takes place in far off corners of the internet, or in largely ignored threads on popular boards. the games are overpriced. they're quickly out of print. supporters of the genre are the most stubborn of any genre in the entire medium. it feels as if the large majority of them dislike digital distribution when its the one thing that'd open up the genre, creatively.

long story short: why would anyone actively seek out the genre? its difficult, expensive, and the community is assholic.

[captpain]

nothing about a game makes it inherently hardcore or casual.
any game can be approached from any mindset regardless of its gameplay.
peggle can be played to death and mastered. so can wii sports.
likewise, i can credit feed Batrider or Ikaruga just to hear the music.

Can you spend hours upon hours intricately crafting a complex scoring strategy to Wii Tennis? Why are you acting like the developers of the games do not cater to gamers with particular mindsets? If a game is entirely organized around something that requires a great deal of attention, dedication, and mega-nerdliness to become even average then why wouldn't you feel comfortable calling that hardcore? Likewise, if a game is entirely organized around being a simple pick-up-and-play that requires no dedication, no practice, or no mega-nerdliness to become even passable at then why wouldn't you be comfortable calling that casual?

There exists a distinction between the games themselves, as well as the type of gamer.

[Taylor]

nothing about a game makes it inherently hardcore or casual.
any game can be approached from any mindset regardless of its gameplay.
peggle can be played to death and mastered. so can wii sports.
likewise, i can credit feed Batrider or Ikaruga just to hear the music.

All games are made with a target demographic.

[neorichieb1971]

I just browsed why this question needed 9 pages. I see what its amounted to, hate and war.

Carry on.