Cave VS Treasure: Who makes the best shmups?

[emphatic]

who farted?

[clp]

cave make better games, treasure make better experiences

[BIL]

Some people seem to have a problem with longer, horizontally scrolling shmups without fancy scoring systems, but luckily I'm not among these people.

If I want a lengthy fire-and-forget hori, I'll play Thunder Force IV first. Gradius V is a sleeping aid for its first fifteen minutes.

[replayme]

The only Cave game I play on a regular basis is Dangun Feveron, because the scoring system in this one is accessible and intuitive. Perhaps I would also appreciate the rest if I knew how their scoring systems work. These games are quite clearly scoring porn; don't click with me at all whilst played merely for survival. The "small hitbox + bullet hell" approach leaves me rather cold. It's just smoke and mirrors and, if you ask me, feels like cheating. I see what they are trying to achieve aesthetically, but look at Metal Slug or In the Hunt - utter sprite mayhem on screen is possible without resort to bullet hell. Even Dangun Feveron don't feel like a "space shooter"; it's an excellent game, but far from "epic 2D shooting in space" territory.
As for Treasure, I must admit that sometimes they do things just right. The funny thing about Gradius V is that it really is that good. Some people seem to have a problem with longer, horizontally scrolling shmups without fancy scoring systems, but luckily I'm not among these people.
With that said, Treasure's contribution to the genre is not quite as meritorious as, say, Irem's. Admittedly, Irem don't make shmups anymore, but it's not like Treasure make one every year or so.
By the way, I found that McDonald's game being more playable than Dynamite Headdy, which would be excellent if only it was actually fun to play.

i definitely preferred treasure when iuchi was working for them. it just goes to show that it is the quality of staff that make up a company, rather than the other way round. i hear that iuchi has gone freelance, so perhaps we may see another shooter from him in future (although not one from treasure).

i liked r-type delta and final. the original r-type was a bit before my day, and r-type 3 (on the snes) was good, but i wasn't into shooters as much then - save for axelay. i missed super aleste, as well as the shmup craze that occurred on the megadrive as i had sold my megadrive by then.

the problem with r-type delta is that i played it after einhander, and einhander was definitely better (especially when you consider that both games were playing host on the original ps1). the same goes for r-type final when comparing it against gradius v - gradius v was a better experience in my personal opinion.

so whilst i do think that irem should be commended for bringing out excellent shooters, i just think that their contributions were somewhat overshadowed by other companies who were bringing out better games around the same time.

[man9child]

I think it's the other way around. R-Type overshadowed everything. Now, you can say that the series didn't evolve much after the first, but the point is it really didn't have to. I much prefer R-Type Delta over Einhander in your example, though, and R-type 3 is one of my favorites of all time.

I recognize that Radiant Silvergun and Ikaruga certainly have a different feel about them than a lot of other shooters. Radiant Silvergun is a little plodding and Ikaruga, while quicker, is very memory intensive. I'll also grant that if a mainstream gamer had to make a list of shooters, they'd be hard pressed to put down anything other than Galaga and Ikaruga. But I think the mainstream appeal of Treasure shooters is grossly overrated. I mean, the company still has to put out licensed games so they can eat, don't they?

My post count dictates that I must like Treasure. The fact that I play and own almost every port Cave has ever done be damned, my newbness is the only thing informing my opinion.

[monouchi]

vs treasure?
Tecnosoft

To say that Tecnosoft was a shooter company wouldn't be entirely accurate - while it is certainly true that, with the possible exception of Herzog Zwei, the Thunder Force series is Tecnosoft's most renown series, it was also their only shooter series.

Do not forget The Elemental master.

On topic I say personal taste.
And my taste is CAVE cos of their amazing bullet patterns.

[Ebbo]

While I like Ikaruga way more than any Cave game I wouldn't say Treasure makes better shmups, simply because Treasure isn't a shmup-company.

I concur.

[kid aphex]

cave make better games, treasure make better experiences

implying playing a game is not an experience

i wasnt trying to imply that
let me be more specific,

caves gameplay mechanics are at once more fun and engaging than any system treasure has structured their games around. treasure puts more effort into unifying the various aspects of a game and structuring the experience to illicit a specific emotional response from the gamer

[ncp]

What the hell? A game's mechanics are not only PART of the "experience", they are the MAJORITY of the experience.

[Taylor]

If only Cave would add pseudo philosophical Engrish between sections and become Art.

emotional response

Oh, you didn't.

[AraraSPAMWitch]

My emotional response to treasure games is FUCK THIS IMMA GO PLAY CAVE

[kid aphex]

What the hell? A game's mechanics are not only PART of the "experience", they are the MAJORITY of the experience.

take MYST, for example.

[kid aphex]

If only Cave would add pseudo philosophical Engrish between sections and become Art.

emotional response

Oh, you didn't.

if only more people would pigeonhole everything thats not concrete as "pseudo philosophical" in a quick attempt at disarming a possible message

[AraraSPAMWitch]

What the hell? A game's mechanics are not only PART of the "experience", they are the MAJORITY of the experience.

take MYST, for example.

MYST proved that if you remove mechanics all you're left with is a bunch of shitty pre-rendered stills.

MYST HAS TRANSCENDED MERE GAMES TO BECOME ART

[kid aphex]

What the hell? A game's mechanics are not only PART of the "experience", they are the MAJORITY of the experience.

take MYST, for example.

MYST proved that if you remove mechanics all you're left with is a bunch of shitty pre-rendered stills.

MYST HAS TRANSCENDED MERE GAMES TO BECOME ART

just because you dont understand or appreciate something, doesn't mean it doesnt exist---no matter how sensationalist you make your case

[lgb]

Ikeda finds Hiroshi Iuchi a genius, and the way he says it/the way it's translated makes it sound like the opinion almost affected DOJ development

that's his story and I'm sticking to it

[AraraSPAMWitch]

just because you dont understand or appreciate something, doesn't mean it doesnt exist---no matter how sensationalist you make your case

I understand--too well. I beat both Myst and Riven when they came out. I tried to go back to Myst for nostalgia's sake and found it to be objectively a boring turd. Treasure games are a tad more interesting, as they actually *gasp!* have mechanics, but my point stands: games cannot thrive on atmosphere alone--I think Ikaruga is, aesthetically, the most epic shooter I've played, but I find the system so abhorrent that I find watching even good players boring. Playing it is even worse. Radiant Silvergun is, for me, perhaps even more boring than Ikaruga. At least Gradius V has some thumpin' tunes.

I'm not going to say Treasure shooters are objectively ass, because they aren't, but no amount of transcendental stylings can get me to enjoy a game I don't like.

[No_not_like_Quake]

Tecnosoft

To say that Tecnosoft was a shooter company wouldn't be entirely accurate - while it is certainly true that, with the possible exception of Herzog Zwei, the Thunder Force series is Tecnosoft's most renown series, it was also their only shooter series. Tecnosoft's other works were RPGs and other games, so it is inaccurate to say that making shooters was their primary focus. Despite this, the Thunder Force series is a remarkable shooter franchise that has always provided great challenge and graphics, neat weapons, excellent music, and perhaps most surprisingly - a good storyline. There was going to be a Thunder Force VI for the Sega Dreamcast, but it was cancelled a few months before Tecnosoft folded and faded away. Fans of the series, such as myself, still strongly lament the cancellation and absence of Tecnosoft today.

No mention of Elemental Master, Hyper Duel or Blast Wind is a criminal offense.

[third_strike]

''Who makes the best shmups?''
Treasure = Unknown for me.
Cave = produce only hard games for enjoy.
Then I prefer Skonec.
Cool!

[Obiwanshinobi]

If I want a lengthy fire-and-forget hori, I'll play Thunder Force IV first. Gradius V is a sleeping aid for its first fifteen minutes.

Thunder Force IV looks and sounds good, but I can't honestly say I've enjoyed it. That's one game I don't "get". I also don't get why R-Type Delta doesn't usually receive such criticism, whereas it's not all that different from the likes of Gradius V and Einhänder in the pacing department (slow start and easier bits every now and then).

i liked r-type delta and final. the original r-type was a bit before my day, and r-type 3 (on the snes) was good, but i wasn't into shooters as much then - save for axelay. i missed super aleste, as well as the shmup craze that occurred on the megadrive as i had sold my megadrive by then.

the problem with r-type delta is that i played it after einhander, and einhander was definitely better (especially when you consider that both games were playing host on the original ps1). the same goes for r-type final when comparing it against gradius v - gradius v was a better experience in my personal opinion.

so whilst i do think that irem should be commended for bringing out excellent shooters, i just think that their contributions were somewhat overshadowed by other companies who were bringing out better games around the same time.

Irem's not only about R-Types. Have you ever played Gun Hohki/Mystic Riders, Image Fight, Dragon Breed, Mr. Heli/Battle Chopper (or Ninja Spirit/Saigo no Nindou - arcade version - for that matter, which isn't a shmup, but still)? Overshadow this I say.
Surely Einhänder is prettier than R-Type Delta (the former has aged rather well, whereas Delta looks better on YouTube than on a CRT SDTV, which really says something) and has that fabulous Square vibe to it, but I wouldn't say it overshadows Delta (although I like R-Type III better than Delta).

[ncp]

What the hell? A game's mechanics are not only PART of the "experience", they are the MAJORITY of the experience.

take MYST, for example.

That's actually a pretty good point. Myst was enjoyable (at least, it was when I last played it like 10 or so year ago), and had virtually no "gameplay" at all. But that is the most important difference: Myst is not a shooting game. In fact, they are virtually polar opposites, as one genre (stg) is gameplay-reliant, while the other (adventure) is visual-reliant. A shooting game can have good visuals, and yes, it can increase how enjoyable it is, but without good game mechanics, it will be utter shit, no exceptions. On the other hand, an adventure game can have virtually no game mechanics to speak of (Myst) and still be somewhat enjoyable because of the visuals.

edit:

My emotional response to treasure games is FUCK THIS IMMA GO PLAY CAVE

MYST HAS TRANSCENDED MERE GAMES TO BECOME ART

hahahaha

[kid aphex]

That's actually a pretty good point. Myst was enjoyable (at least, it was when I last played it like 10 or so year ago), and had virtually no "gameplay" at all. But that is the most important difference: Myst is not a shooting game. In fact, they are virtually polar opposites, as one genre (stg) is gameplay-reliant, while the other (adventure) is visual-reliant. A shooting game can have good visuals, and yes, it can increase how enjoyable it is, but without good game mechanics, it will be utter shit, no exceptions. On the other hand, an adventure game can have virtually no game mechanics to speak of (Myst) and still be somewhat enjoyable because of the visuals.

i never suggested that gamplay mechanics are LESS important than any other aspect of the game.
all i suggested was that there are other aspects of design that could be just as interesting to certain fans of the genre.
i understand why this may be difficult to grasp on such a purist forum---one that works to distill the fans of a genre down to the MOST HARDCORE possible---but these fans do exist.
im one of them
the others, if they're here, are probly silent---afraid of the derision they'd be met with by this crowd

[BIL]

I also don't get why R-Type Delta doesn't usually receive such criticism, whereas it's not all that different from the likes of Gradius V and Einhänder in the pacing department (slow start and easier bits every now and then).

Delta is faster-paced than Gradius V. "Bydo" difficulty is aggressive from the start, even moreso if played for score. Gradius V's first three stages are slow even on "Very Hard," and there's no score mechanic to make things more interesting.

[RoninBuddha]

Seibu Kaihatsu

[Dale]

''Who makes the best shmups?''
Treasure = Unknown for me.
Cave = produce only hard games for enjoy.
Then I prefer Skonec.
Cool!

You Figured it out!

[Skykid]

My emotional response to treasure games is FUCK THIS IMMA GO PLAY CAVE

Ha ha!

Gradius V is a sleeping aid for its first fifteen minutes.

[BIL]

Sorry. Tiny hitbox, slow bullets, screen-wiping firepower and no real risk over several levels has that cumulative effect on me. Once the game actually starts trying to kill you I'm a fan, but it shouldn't take so long.

[lgb]

I dunno about you, Bill, but Guwange is a nightmare in the good way (i.e. scoring system doesn't suck)

[BIL]

I'm not saying small hitboxes, slow bullets and big guns are inherently bad things. But all three in a relatively mild scoring=survival game like GV's early first loop bores me. Treasure should've included Gaiden's unlockable loop select.

[orange]

i wish gradius just had difficulties instead of loops