Cave VS Treasure: Who makes the best shmups?

[replayme]

Heya

Sorry if this sounds a bit like the seasoned "Pro Vs Fifa" debate, but who do you think makes better shooters between Treasure/Iuchi and Cave? Why do you think this?

Ta x

[EinhanderZwei]

Well, if to choose between Cave and Treasure, then...

IREM and COMPILE. Boo

[replayme]

irem don't count anymore as they don't (really) do r-type games anymore. and compile closed down ages ago...

CAVE VS TREASURE

personally: i prefer treasure games. they focus less on "bullet hell", have better graphics and art style, better sound/music, and have more imaginitive bosses with an epic sense of scale. treasure games (imho) just seem to have higher production values and all of them seem really distinct with their own set of ideas and imaginitive storylines.

cave games just feel really generic in my opinion. too samey and bland.

EDIT: this is all my opinion of course, and you're more than welcome to prove me wrong.

[EinhanderZwei]

IMHO the main difference between those guys is that Cave are doing what they're best at, and Treasure are always experimenting. Actually, that fits Compile and Irem respectively, so if we do some math, I'm rooting for... Treasure

But Cave surely does have 2 advantages:
1) They simply have MOAR GAMEZ
2) They never made Bleach- or McDonalds-related shit

[replayme]

I personally attribute my love for Treasure's shooter catalogue to Hiroshi Iuchi. I'm not really a fan of the rest of their games, as titles like Mischief Makers and Bangaio just left me cold. And no: I still think Konami's Contra Spirits is better than any run and gun blaster out there (including the Metal Slug series as well as GunStar Heroes)

I liked Irem's 'R-Type Delta'. But it still paled in comparison to the 3-D juggernaut that was Einhander (which had a Treasure feel about it). Great graphics and sound leveraged with the most ambitious boss set designs ever committed to the shooter genre.

I've never played any GRev games so therefore cannot comment on them, but they do have a "Treasure" vibe about them in that they follow the same arcade template as outlined by games like Gradius V (not surprising considering that they helped develop the game).

[sven666]

vs treasure?

why not choose a company that actively puts out shmups atleast? treasure made what.. 2 (?) arcade shmups and bangaio?

[Voxbox]

Yeah, Treasure have developed 3 good (great) shmups, while Cave have developed about 20, all of them extremely popular.

While I like Ikaruga way more than any Cave game I wouldn't say Treasure makes better shmups, simply because Treasure isn't a shmup-company.

[kengou]

I prefer Cave, but Treasure still makes great games. They are much more experimental than Cave is, which is a positive thing in my view, but Cave is just a master of making great bullet patterns, bosses, stages, and scoring systems (well, they're hit and miss here but their hits are fantastic). Treasure can come up with fantastic puzzle-like stages and really creative bosses, but I think they falter a little in pacing (Gradius V and Silvergun being prime examples) and in difficulty balance (Ikaruga). If they made more shmups and had time to nail down some specific areas of their games, I think Treasure would be much more competition with Cave.

[BIL]

I've never played any GRev games so therefore cannot comment on them, but they do have a "Treasure" vibe about them in that they follow the same arcade template as outlined by games like Gradius V (not surprising considering that they helped develop the game).

Gradius V is an hour-plus in length and has no real scoring system (and those cutscenes). If anything, Treasure should've taken some cues from G-Rev's far more arcade-suited Border Down with that game.

[brentsg]

Treasure shooters are fun curiosities to me. They haven't really produced anything that I would want to invest any serious time in. So Cave.. yeah.

[replayme]

vs treasure?

why not choose a company that actively puts out shmups atleast? treasure made what.. 2 (?) arcade shmups and bangaio?

Apart from GRev (who haven't really gained any reasonable recognition), there is only Triangle Service, Milestone, Moss, Sega (STG Project) - none of which happen to have gained the recognition that Treasure have when going up against Cave. Also, Treasure have done and helped with 5 arcade (style) shooters (and also have more financial clout in this sector):
Axelay
Radiant Silvergun
Ikaruga
Gradius V
Silpheed 2

And Bangaio just left me really cold.



PS: this is a really old post I found (dated 2006) but I think it serves this discussion well when trying to think of players within the "scene":



Cave

A somewhat recent trend among most shooters is to have them be styled in one of two ways, usually designated as "old-school" and "bullet hell". After the early Donpachi, Cave has fundamentally initiated and established their company's existence upon such "bullet hell" shooters. Particularly with this generation, Cave has continuously produced quality shooters in rapid fashion; Dondonpachi Daiojou, Espgaluda, Mushihimesama, Ketsui, and Ibara are all shooters with unique twists but a common trend - to put more pixels of bullets on screen than anything else in the game. In a respect it can be said that Cave is the lone remaining shooter-only production house in Japan today. One footnote worth mentioning is that while arcade score competition remains heated among Japanese players, in Cave's case it became so contested that it caused major productions to be cancelled. A player named Clover-TAC was to compile a superplay for Ketsui and have it recorded for a DVD, and for this purpose, Arika (who was to publish the DVD) had Cave code a special version of the game specifically for score-attack purposes. However, Clover-TAC played this special version of the game and submitted the scores he earned to Arcadia Magazine, and the scores were published. This was a breach of agreement on Cave's part, resulting in the DVD movie being cancelled as well as a rumored home PS2 verison of the game. If anything, this episode shows how protective Cave is of their shooters.

Compile

Before resigning theirselves to whore out the Puyo Puyo franshise unto eternity and beyond, Compile was a respected developer of shooters that didn't focus as much on enemy congestion as it did a raw sense of speed in some or their games or perhaps just plain bizzare graphics in others. Zanac X Zanac remains a rather rare PS1 shooter and is the last of what could be considered their flasgship shooter series, but it's possible most American gamers most know Compile for their hybrid shooter/adventure game known as The Guardian Legend. Musha, Blazing Lazers, and Aleste are other popular Compile titles. Note: there is no relationship between Randar and Lolo.

Eighting/Raizing

Here is another company that has abandoned their shooter development and established franchises. 8ing has an impressive history of development, being responsible for titles such as Battle Garegga, Metal Black, Brave Blade, Layer Section, and Soukyugurentai (released elsewhere as Terra Diver). Unfortunately, their only videogame production as of this generation has been for the licenced Naruto fighters found on Gamecube and PS2.

G-Rev

A recent upstart in the Japanese videogame developer set is G-Rev. So far, they have focussed on making arcade oriented titles and their first two entries were well received shooters, both of which have home versions on the Sega Dreamcast; Border Down and Under Defeat. Under Defeat is the last non-dojinshi (fanmade) Sega Dreamcast game that will ever be made. I read somewhere that some of GRev's staff is formed from former Taito employees that helped make games for their Darius series, and there are certainly elements of Border Down that exhibit similar traits to Darius. Their latest game, Senko no Ronde, is more of a shooter-fighter hybrid that is only available on the XBox 360 at the moment. The impressions I've heard of this game are sparse and not entirely positive; here's hoping that whether their future titles are shooters or not, GRev continues to make positive and profitable titles.

Irem

Irem is a relatively moderate software developer that is responsible for many games beyond shooters, and their shooter catalog is no slouch either; they coded games like Moon Patrol, X-Multiply, Mr. Heli's Adventure / Battle Chopper, Image Fight, and Blade Master. However, the totality of their library is overshadowed by their flagship shooter franchise: R-Type. R-Type is one of the most renown shooters of the 80's, if not of all time, and remains a challenging play to this day. Most people consider the series to have reached its apex with the PS1 release of R-Type Delta; while I personally agree that overall, the game is in fact better than their last shooter, R-Type Final, I actually was not disappointed with RTF and rather enjoyed the game's design, music, as well as the sheer number of ships (and from these ships, further customization) that you could use.

Psikyo

It's probably most accurate to say that Psikyo is an arcade game development house - while their shooters have a distinct style, each series has a rather unique heritage and Psikyo relies just as much on mah-jongg games for income as they do their shooter franchies. Shooter fans are well familiar with their franchises, and among titles such as Sengoku Ace, Gunbird 2, Strikers 1945 II, or Zero Gunner 2, you can't go wrong with any of their offerings.

Takumi

After making their first shooter, Kyukyoku Tiger 2 (subsequently released on the Sega Saturn as Kyukyoku Tiger 2 Plus), Takumi exploded onto the scene by entering into a publishing agreement with Capcom. The result has left us with some of best shooters found on the Sega Dreamcast - unfortunately after this time period, Takumi seems to have fallen off of the map. Takumi combined bullet hell game mechanics with scoring algorithms that resulted in score competitions that are almost unequalled to the present day, and Giga Wing 2 remains as one of the very few 4-player shooters in existence. In the end, though, for Takumi's shooters it was all about the points - and let's face it; how is it not thrilling to play a shooter and earn 100 quadrillion points or more?

Tecnosoft

To say that Tecnosoft was a shooter company wouldn't be entirely accurate - while it is certainly true that, with the possible exception of Herzog Zwei, the Thunder Force series is Tecnosoft's most renown series, it was also their only shooter series. Tecnosoft's other works were RPGs and other games, so it is inaccurate to say that making shooters was their primary focus. Despite this, the Thunder Force series is a remarkable shooter franchise that has always provided great challenge and graphics, neat weapons, excellent music, and perhaps most surprisingly - a good storyline. There was going to be a Thunder Force VI for the Sega Dreamcast, but it was cancelled a few months before Tecnosoft folded and faded away. Fans of the series, such as myself, still strongly lament the cancellation and absence of Tecnosoft today.

SNK

Despite the fact that the last SNK shooter came with Blazing Star, which was released nearly a decade ago, the few contributions they have made to the genre are noteworthy. Their very first game, Ozma Wars, may well be the first videogame with a boss. Pulstar is a specific example of a game that has stunning graphics and a very rough challenge, and still stands as a great horizontal shooter today.

Success

This is a relatively small-time development and publishing house (for instance, they did in fact publish the Japanese verion of the PS1 brawler Wu-Tang: Enter the Wu) but they have had a few shooter series of merit, namely Psyvariar and Cotton. The first two Cotton games are charming horizontal shooters with rich graphics and neat gameplay tricks involving freezing enemies and tossing them around; the series all but faded to obscurity with the fumbled Cotton Boomerang for Dreamcast. The Psyvariar series possibly introduced the "buzz" gameplay concept in which letting the bullets graze your ship as closely as possible translates to bonuses.

Taito

Space Invaders remains an iconic entity of Taito, but until the end of the 32bit generation they were still producing shooters on a regular basis. Everyone in the world knows about Space Invaders, but the Darius series is probably their best shooter property. My personal favorite of all their shooters is G-Darius; I thought being able to 1CC the PS1 version was a nice accomplishment - that is, until I got to play the version on the recent Taito Memories 2 collection on PS2. Suffice to say, G-Darius running at the proper speed makes a world of difference (and the PS1 port obsolete). While they presently aren't producing any new shooters, they have published a few of Cave's PS2 ports of their arcade shooters.

Treasure

From Axelay to Gradius V, there are very many ardent fans of Treasure's shooters. While I personally find Radiant Silvergun to be overrated and boring, I will concede that it is a well-made game with good production values. (Personally, I did own RS at one time but I became so infuriated with it I ended up trading mine for a working Intellivision. Yes, an Intellivision.) Ikaruga continues to receieve accolades from various journalist pieces, and Gradius V is arguably the best new shooter for the PS2.

Many Others...

There are some companies that have numerous shooter franchises in their history or being further developed. However, the above list of such companies merely scratches the surface of the totality of shooters that are out there. Moss has recently released Raiden III, reviving Seibu Kaihatsu's venerable Raiden franchise; a US release is upcoming as well as Raiden IV in the arcades. Alfa System's lone franchise is the Shikigami no Shiro series; the third title in the series was released this year and continues to enjoy some popularity in Japan. Then there is Namco, a company that is not entirely known for its shooter franchises but has definite mainstays in the Galaga and Xevious franchises. Then there are other companies that are starting to develop shooter catalogs, such as Triangle Service (XII Stag, Trizeal) and Milestone (Chaos Field, Radilgy), as well as single-title titles from current and previous generations like Gaiares, Blaze On, Phalanx, Shienryu, Homura ... it's a challenge just to list them all.

[MathU]

They both suck.

[Udderdude]

Ugh, why did I open this knowing a sub-20 post count poster made it? I must be psychic.

Terrible topic, lock plz.

[Ex-Cyber]

Axelay

AFAIK, the idea that Axelay has some major Treasure connection is a myth. I've never seen it substantiated, and there only seems to be one future Treasure employee who worked on it as a "support programmer".

[BIL]

8ing has an impressive history of development, being responsible for titles such as Battle Garegga, Metal Black, Brave Blade, Layer Section, and Soukyugurentai

Those two are Taito... and Homura was from Skonec. And the writer has Cotton Boomerang and Rainbow Cotton mixed up.

[EinhanderZwei]

Are you sure that Axelay was on arcades?..

In a respect it can be said that Cave is the lone remaining shooter-only production house in Japan today.

Um... Shin Megami Tensei Imagine anyone?

Unfortunately, their only videogame production as of this generation has been for the licenced Naruto fighters found on Gamecube and PS2.

WHAT?!?!!?!

[BIL]

No, Axelay wasn't an arcade game... I don't think that's what he meant by "arcade shooter" in that post. In any case, Radiant Silvergun and Ikaruga are Treasure's only two arcade-released shooters.

[Dragoforce]

PERSONAL TASTE!

[SFKhoa]

WHAT?!?!!?!

Not just the Naruto games, but I also believe they've done some Inuyasha game on the PS2, Bleach fighting games on the PSP, Fate/Unlimited Codes, and Tatsunoko vs. CAPCOM.

[EOJ]

They both suck.

Milestone 4 life.

[apple arcade]

CAVE

[Limbrooke]

They both math.

Milestone 4 life.......................................................................................................1

Here ye, here ye! I nominate thee for the Fields Medal.


Recognizing excellence in MathUmatics under the cost of 10,000 windshield wipers since UC0087. You do corroberate avec la langue de Moonspeak, oh Supreme leader?!

LORK AVAST!

[ncp]

say what now

[Obiwanshinobi]

The only Cave game I play on a regular basis is Dangun Feveron, because the scoring system in this one is accessible and intuitive. Perhaps I would also appreciate the rest if I knew how their scoring systems work. These games are quite clearly scoring porn; don't click with me at all whilst played merely for survival. The "small hitbox + bullet hell" approach leaves me rather cold. It's just smoke and mirrors and, if you ask me, feels like cheating. I see what they are trying to achieve aesthetically, but look at Metal Slug or In the Hunt - utter sprite mayhem on screen is possible without resort to bullet hell. Even Dangun Feveron don't feel like a "space shooter"; it's an excellent game, but far from "epic 2D shooting in space" territory.
As for Treasure, I must admit that sometimes they do things just right. The funny thing about Gradius V is that it really is that good. Some people seem to have a problem with longer, horizontally scrolling shmups without fancy scoring systems, but luckily I'm not among these people.
With that said, Treasure's contribution to the genre is not quite as meritorious as, say, Irem's. Admittedly, Irem don't make shmups anymore, but it's not like Treasure make one every year or so.
By the way, I found that McDonald's game being more playable than Dynamite Headdy, which would be excellent if only it was actually fun to play.

[kid aphex]

cave make better games, treasure make better experiences

[Bloodreign]

Neither, I prefer Toaplan. Short history but amazing shooters were put out by this company.

[EPS21]

cave make better games, treasure make better experiences

implying playing a game is not an experience

[Koa Zo]

Triangle Service

[Gespenst]

Cave < Seibu Kaihatsu

Cave + Seibu Kaihatsu = awesome

[Strider77]

who farted?