Decimation X (from Xona Games)...

[TodayIsForgotten]

My friend and I were also talking about how you cannot make very precise movements. Your ship moves pretty fast. You can move slowly but you have to be really gentle with the analog stick. I'm not necessarily complaining about it but I'm sure you made a conscious decision about this and I'm curious to know your logic behind this choice.

P.S. I find the controller matters a lot, since once you're out of the dead zone, it starts to create motion, and some controllers will lie in the dead zone very close to the edge, making it easier to move left than right. In fact, I widened the dead zone for my games to allow older controllers that actually lie still outside of the standard 12% sized deadzone, but this has the effect that a properly working controller has to be pushed a little bit further to invoke motion. There's no perfect solution, and you can't fix it for everyone, since the controllers themselves aren't even constant. So, let me know if the contolling is an actual issue or not. Does it bug you? Should it be fixed? After all, arcade games like this are all about the control, and user interface is very important to me.

I've had issues with scores saving, as well.
I've noticed this same issue with movement. Its either too much or too little.
As with all games with analog if you move the stick very slowly and just enough to get motion going any character moves super slow.
I don't think it would matter with the controller used. I will try my 360 SF pad next time i play.

[Jason]

Couldn't you just add a feature that while you're pressing some button, the movement speed halves? Or am I missing something critical?

Minimialism / simplicity was a design goal. That's why there's no menus. It'd be nice to adjust the HUD and such but that requires a menu, which means you need a "start game" selection, which means a more complex start-up screen, and one more button press to get into the game. All of this stuff actually matters when people are running the trial.

Someone suggested using the D-Pad for slower motion. But some people want to use the D-pad for regular motion, so that's a no-go.

Also, maybe experts would master your suggestion, but imagine how much more difficult it is to get used to pressing another button right at the crucial split second time that you need it. It just wouldn't work well. It could work, but not work well. It has to be natural, so there must be a better solution. From my current standpoint, I can see 'massaging' the proportional input to better allow precise control at the expense of linear relatonship between thumbstick and motion. Lots of games do this, since I've read article from professional game developers talking about it. And I bet in those games, no one notices that it's not linear -- you know you've hit it proper when people can't tell, when the interface becomes invisible.

[eebrozgi]

"Minimalism" prevents you from adding a single slowdown button, even though analog movements are implemented?

Also, maybe experts would master your suggestion, but imagine how much more difficult it is to get used to pressing another button right at the crucial split second time that you need it.

You should play some more shmups, seriously.

[Jason]

I've had issues with scores saving, as well.

I wonder if everyone who's had an issue with the scores saving is using the Guide to quit the game, or just shutting off the Xbox, rather than allowing the game itself to exit gracefully... I wish everyone knew just how much of a pain this is to know your game can be unplugged at any point. Ever since the days that caching arrived, back in the 80's, the unplug method has never worked with computers. This is why you have to instruct Windows to shut down, instead of just pressing the power button -- because caches are not yet written out. Regardless, I can't change gamers' behaviours, so I wish the Xbox 360 itself would signal an event that the game is ending, which could even be sent when the power button is pressed (only yanking out the power cord could cause issues then), but alas, this does not occur. So, my game has to load, change, and save data and flush it out immediately. But I've recently found issues with the XNA framework regarding storage device containers that you're technically supposed to dispose of them to ensure the caching works, and I am not doing this, and in some cases, there's a bug in the framework so bad that it causes crashes that I cannot even debug, since it occurs outside the realm of my own code. In any case, I am revamping the entire score system and storage with the online scoreboards so these lost scores should not occur anymore. Online scoreboards are even more of a mess, since they must share in the background, and must be saved at some point, and the gamer always has the option of shutting off the game abruptly during a save, and there's nothing I as a programmer can do about this except pop-up an annoying "saving... don't quit game" box, which is just plain annoying, and even if I do that, if the scores are being shared P2P, when do I save the score? At game end? That's the spot where gamers are most likely to quit abruptly. During game play? It could cause frame skips. During title screen? Gamers may not reach that after the game ends. It has to be saved at game end, with a box saying "dont shut off" and that's the only viable solution. <sigh>

[Jason]

I've noticed this same issue with movement. Its either too much or too little.
As with all games with analog if you move the stick very slowly and just enough to get motion going any character moves super slow.
I don't think it would matter with the controller used. I will try my 360 SF pad next time i play.

The controllers matter due to the dead zone. If you have decent controllers, perhaps they all play the same to you (as they should). Some of my controllers are so bad that if I used the default dead zone in XNA, on occasion, my character will move even when the controller isn't being used. So if I adjust the dead zone to be larger so this doesn't occur, this still means my character will more easily move left than right.

If you feel the motion is either too much or too little, I presume when attempting to make a quick nudge, then I'm afraid there's nothing that can be done. If I massage the input to allow easier slow motion, it would make it harder to make a faster motion (except for full speed, which is always easy, just press as far as you can). If I massage the input to allow easier faster motion below max speed, it makes it more difficult for you to move slowly.

So... I think I need more details from you. When and where exactly do you feel the control is lacking? When trying to make a quick nudge by a few pixels? And what happens? Do you undershoot? Overshoot? I am guessing that it's more hard to make a small nudge, and that massaging the control to allow for easier slow motion would be the only fix worth considering.

[Jason]

"Minimalism" prevents you from adding a single slowdown button, even though analog movements are implemented?

Yes.

The controls are 1. left/right via one stick, and 2. shoot. Adding anything more is more complex. We're talking about a fixed gallery shooter here, a redone game of one of the first shooters ever made, and simplicity is key. Lots of people want the waves to act differently, more Galaga like, and attack, and shoot bullets in different angles, etc., etc., but every time I add something like that, it's less Decimation X and more Duality ZF. The goal of this project, a 3-week game, was simplicity, and that has to be maintained, even if us hardcore shooter crowd wants more. Because adding more takes away from the simplicity, and the gamer then demands more, and suddenly the game doesn't give what is expected. When it's just a gallery shooter, left/right and shoot, it's about as simple as a video game can get without going to just left/right, which is Pong.

[eebrozgi]

How about making it optional from the menu? Oh wait, no menu, too complex. My bad.

[Jason]

How about making it optional from the menu? Oh wait, no menu, too complex. My bad.

Yeah.

It KILLS me that I can't just have a simple menu to fix all of these things, but then when you look at the best $1 games... they are simple, simple, simple. Trust me, it's rough for me to maintain this simplicity, but it's just a must. I purposely did not reuse the menu code from Decimation X, and in fact, if I had, it could have added another week on top of the 3 weeks it took me. That how much time and energy it takes to add these things. Then they need beta testing. It all takes time. Simplicity is king (for $1 games).

[TMR]

It KILLS me that I can't just have a simple menu to fix all of these things, but then when you look at the best $1 games... they are simple, simple, simple. Trust me, it's rough for me to maintain this simplicity, but it's just a must.

Just stick a bit of extra code in so that the left shoulder button slows the ship down to 50% speed, then don't tell the general public about it... they'll think it's simple and will be happy, the bunnies here'll get their finer control and everyone will be happy - job done! =-)

[Jason]

Just stick a bit of extra code in so that the left shoulder button slows the ship down to 50% speed, then don't tell the general public about it... they'll think it's simple and will be happy, the bunnies here'll get their finer control and everyone will be happy - job done! =-)

Yes, I could do that, and I'll seriously consider it. You guys can be the beta testers on this, since it's for you. Which buttons should I use? So far the expectations of gamers is that both thumbsticks and the D-pad give normal control, and that the A button and both triggers fire. So, I could just make every other button act as a slow down button.

[TodayIsForgotten]

I've noticed this same issue with movement. Its either too much or too little.
As with all games with analog if you move the stick very slowly and just enough to get motion going any character moves super slow.
I don't think it would matter with the controller used. I will try my 360 SF pad next time i play.

The controllers matter due to the dead zone. If you have decent controllers, perhaps they all play the same to you (as they should). Some of my controllers are so bad that if I used the default dead zone in XNA, on occasion, my character will move even when the controller isn't being used. So if I adjust the dead zone to be larger so this doesn't occur, this still means my character will more easily move left than right.

If you feel the motion is either too much or too little, I presume when attempting to make a quick nudge, then I'm afraid there's nothing that can be done. If I massage the input to allow easier slow motion, it would make it harder to make a faster motion (except for full speed, which is always easy, just press as far as you can). If I massage the input to allow easier faster motion below max speed, it makes it more difficult for you to move slowly.

So... I think I need more details from you. When and where exactly do you feel the control is lacking? When trying to make a quick nudge by a few pixels? And what happens? Do you undershoot? Overshoot? I am guessing that it's more hard to make a small nudge, and that massaging the control to allow for easier slow motion would be the only fix worth considering.

It's not an issue for me, but it is there. The ship does not see consistent nudge movements. I can load up any game with the same 360 SF pad and get a ship to max speed and do pretty consistent nudge movements or at the very least dodge bullets without the fear or concern of over moving. The only real option you could do is to allow the player to select their ship speed.

[TMR]

Which buttons should I use? So far the expectations of gamers is that both thumbsticks and the D-pad give normal control, and that the A button and both triggers fire. So, I could just make every other button act as a slow down button.

Me personally, i'd say the shoulder buttons on the left hand side of the pad should be slowdown (since it's related to movement and the D pad and stick are there, that's how i've got my Dual Shock clone configured in Genetos and i find it easy to keep that button down and almost forget about it) and every button on the right acts as fire so it doesn't matter which is pressed...?

[Jason]

It's not an issue for me, but it is there. The ship does not see consistent nudge movements. I can load up any game with the same 360 SF pad and get a ship to max speed and do pretty consistent nudge movements or at the very least dodge bullets without the fear or concern of over moving. The only real option you could do is to allow the player to select their ship speed.

Ok this really sounds like a case where most games that are concerned with nudge movement finesse the controls such that slight motions are easy, and require a wider range of stick movement, and then the faster speeds are all compressed in the extreme stick motions, so this allows variable nudge motions of the stick resulting in very close actual motion of the character.

Not that you care about the technical details, but this is what I am talking about.

I bet the games you like do this, and Decimation X does not do this. So I'm betting if it did, you'd be happy. I am also betting that it is the nudge motions that you notice, so the "sometimes you go too far, and sometimes not enough" is actually one and the same problem = the inability to nudge and get the same character response. I believe the massaging fixes this. I will give it a shot.

[Jason]

Which buttons should I use? So far the expectations of gamers is that both thumbsticks and the D-pad give normal control, and that the A button and both triggers fire. So, I could just make every other button act as a slow down button.

Me personally, i'd say the shoulder buttons on the left hand side of the pad should be slowdown (since it's related to movement and the D pad and stick are there, that's how i've got my Dual Shock clone configured in Genetos and i find it easy to keep that button down and almost forget about it) and every button on the right acts as fire so it doesn't matter which is pressed...?

Yes, every button on the right acts as fire, but I could make both shoulder buttons, and X, Y, and B all act as a slow down mechanism, since I don't know anyone who doesn't use A or a trigger for fire (but I could be wrong).

[system11]

I'd say both shoulder buttons, or have one of the main face buttons be fire+slow, although this only works in a held scenario.

[Xonatron]

Just wanted to jump in and say thanks for raising these concerns... that's what makes these forums awesome.

[rancid3000]

There's a lot of interesting points being brought up here. I'm glad I'm not the only one who feels this way about the control issue. I think that I and some of us have issues with the controls is this. I'm definitely a Cave fan and I am used to the whole change of ship speed. If I need to slow down, easy, just switch to the laser shot or the slow button in Mushi. I'm definitely used to making the split second decision or if I know a part is coming up then I'll be ready to use it. I remember reading somewhere else on the site where you said you are not familiar with Cave and Cave-like games so maybe that's why you think it would be hard to change speed.

I would definitely use a slowdown button in Decimation X if you added it. The slowdown button is common in almost every modern bullet hell or manic shmup out there. Your game isn't a necessarily a bullet hell shooter due to the nature of the gameplay. That being said there are lots of times with TONS of bullets raining down on you and and you only have one speed to dodge them at. You don't really have control over the nudges.

I also see the other side of adding the button might take away from the simplicity of the game as was said earlier. You want to keep it simple and that's understandable. If you add the slowdown button you might take away from the simple, retro feel you have going.

I think it is definitely a tough call. The choice is yours really. You made the game, not us. I can't tell you enough how much I appreciate you listening to us though. We definitely need more of that.

If it's easy to add the button then why not test it out. See how it works.

[Xonatron]

The one way Cave does it best, is that the slowdown button (correct me if I am wrong) is tied to the firing of the more powerful secondary (or primary?) weapon, so gamers must use it. This is much different from a slowdown button that is nothing more, that gamers can ignore. Cave makes everyone use the slowdown. It's ingenius.

Not saying we won't implement the slowdown control, just pointing out a huge and ingenius design decision on Cave's part.

[TodayIsForgotten]

Jason - About the score saving. When im done with the game and my score is submitted I exit to dashboard. I noticed the second time i loaded the game up and i went into scores and then out and then back in and then exited it saved. I have added 2 mores scores this way but left the game the same way. I'm pretty sure this is enough of a write action to keep the scores in. We'll see.

I don't know of any slow motion buttons in any bullet-hell or manic games other than the practice mode implemented into RFA (slow motion game). On the other hand, when you hold down the A-shot or is it C-shot? button in Futari you use a power laser or whatever you'd like to call it that slows down your character. I guess you could look at it as being weighed down, much like the grapple mechanism in Trigger Heart Exelica.

Decimation X is so simple in its nature that adding another button to slow the ship down may be weird, but could also be beneficial with some penalties to using it. I don't know if penalties is a good word but maybe when used your attack power is halved or your shot spread is halved. The other alternative to this would be to have the player mash the a button to fire and then hold down the a button to get the precise movements, which would suck...

As for the too little, too much movement a more tighter control scheme should be tested and possibly implemented. There can be some bullet rain to weave through. I would assume the more seasoned players will use the rain to weave through more so than an average player to grab pickups or make paths. At the same time I can see it not being implemented since vertcial and hori scrollers are more "zoomed" in (in a visual sense) vs decimation x, but then again if you are modernizing retro - yes, please.

[Jason]

rancid3000, I'm glad you appreciate that we're listening. There are a lot of great points being brought up here. While I am not familiar with the Cave shmups, I have played quite a few shmups with speed changes, off hand, I can think of Gaiares, Thunder Force 3 (I know not a good example), and really all the way back to the early 80's with Parsec. Ship speed changes are always nice, but always complicate the game, so it's a conflict between giving power to the player, and simplicity.

I am going to implement a button, or multiple buttons, that will allow a slowdown mode. As is, my thoughts are that the slowdown mode will activate when the button is being held, and shut off when it's released. I think having it be an on/off switch would be confusing, and because Decimation X doesn't shoot different streams of bullets, it'd be hard to quickly tell which mode you're in, since often you're not looking at your ship, but at the bullets you're firing, or the bullets that are raining down on you.

[Jason]

Jason - About the score saving. When im done with the game and my score is submitted I exit to dashboard. I noticed the second time i loaded the game up and i went into scores and then out and then back in and then exited it saved. I have added 2 mores scores this way but left the game the same way. I'm pretty sure this is enough of a write action to keep the scores in. We'll see.

When you say you exit to dashboard, in what manner are you doing so? If you use the game's exit from the title screen, the game exits gracefully, and all cache is written out to disk. If you use the guide, then you're essentially Ctrl-Alt-Del'ing it, and the game doesn't have a chance to fix itself before it quits (which is ridiculous -- the system should send off an event so the game can exit gracefully... even Windows does that when you Ctrl-Alt-Del a program).

Because of the issues of caching with the XNA framework that I was not aware of when I wrote Decimation X, the only sure-fire way to save scores is to let the game quit gracefully (i.e. press B on the title screen to exit & and press A to confirm). Although most caches write themselves out after a few seconds, so a short delay should be fine, and this is probably why this issue wasn't found in playtest, since caches are usually pretty quick (especially when I tell the system I'm done with the file and have it CLOSED -- any normal system would immediately write out all caches at this point <sigh>).

In any case, this old buggy code has been fixed, but I'm just letting you know how to avoid lost scores before the update comes out.

[rancid3000]

rancid3000, I'm glad you appreciate that we're listening. There are a lot of great points being brought up here. While I am not familiar with the Cave shmups, I have played quite a few shmups with speed changes, off hand, I can think of Gaiares, Thunder Force 3 (I know not a good example), and really all the way back to the early 80's with Parsec. Ship speed changes are always nice, but always complicate the game, so it's a conflict between giving power to the player, and simplicity.

I am going to implement a button, or multiple buttons, that will allow a slowdown mode. As is, my thoughts are that the slowdown mode will activate when the button is being held, and shut off when it's released. I think having it be an on/off switch would be confusing, and because Decimation X doesn't shoot different streams of bullets, it'd be hard to quickly tell which mode you're in, since often you're not looking at your ship, but at the bullets you're firing, or the bullets that are raining down on you.

Hey Jason. A few things.

When I lost my score this is what happened to the best of my memory. I got a game over and it sent me to the high score table. I saw my name and score at the top and thought to myself "YESSSSSSS!!!" Then, not wanting to get addicted and keep playing, I turned off my xbox with it at the high score screen. Then when I went back to play the next day, I noticed my score was gone. I don't think I exited to the dashboard but it is possible. I know I did not exit the game gracefully as you put it.

The way you described the button will work best. If the ship slows down when you press it and then goes back to normal speed when it's released. I think it's good that you are going to experiment with it and try it out. I'm definitely a more modern shmup player. I of course have played the popular classics but you seem more well versed in them than me. So I suppose I am more dependent on such a button that some other players.

I don't think it would be too much of an issue of not changing shots when you hit the slowdown button. The player would know when the button is pressed and when it isn't.

I'm glad you are willing to give it a try. If it works out and you like it then great. If it doesn't that's fine too. Decimation X is a great game either way!

[Jason]

When I lost my score this is what happened to the best of my memory. I got a game over and it sent me to the high score table. I saw my name and score at the top and thought to myself "YESSSSSSS!!!" Then, not wanting to get addicted and keep playing, I turned off my xbox with it at the high score screen. Then when I went back to play the next day, I noticed my score was gone. I don't think I exited to the dashboard but it is possible. I know I did not exit the game gracefully as you put it.

I just want to reiterated that my code opens the high score file, adds the new scores, saves the file, then closes the file before the high score screen is even shown. Every environment except for the Xbox 360 will completely flush out the cache and write the contents to disk when a file is closed. I did this purposely so that there's no possible way that a high score could be lost, but it just doesn't work on the Xbox 360. Thankfully the update will fix this issue.

I cannot express how MUCH lost high scores upsets me...

[rancid3000]

When I lost my score this is what happened to the best of my memory. I got a game over and it sent me to the high score table. I saw my name and score at the top and thought to myself "YESSSSSSS!!!" Then, not wanting to get addicted and keep playing, I turned off my xbox with it at the high score screen. Then when I went back to play the next day, I noticed my score was gone. I don't think I exited to the dashboard but it is possible. I know I did not exit the game gracefully as you put it.

I just want to reiterated that my code opens the high score file, adds the new scores, saves the file, then closes the file before the high score screen is even shown. Every environment except for the Xbox 360 will completely flush out the cache and write the contents to disk when a file is closed. I did this purposely so that there's no possible way that a high score could be lost, but it just doesn't work on the Xbox 360. Thankfully the update will fix this issue.

I cannot express how MUCH lost high scores upsets me...

I understand you fixed it. I was just letting you know how it happened for your own knowledge. Thanks a lot Jason!

[Jason]

I understand you fixed it. I was just letting you know how it happened for your own knowledge. Thanks a lot Jason!

Oh sorry! I didn't mean to imply that you didn't understand. I just felt that I had to explain why it was happening and that I took the proper approach to ensure no such bug existed to begin with, but was sort of slapped in the face with the reality of the situation.

Thank you for your feedback on the score storage issue and the control issues, and your thoughts. They are appreciated!

[rancid3000]

I'm no longer mad about losing my score. Just put up 3,626,139. Oh yes!

[Xonatron]

I'm no longer mad about losing my score. Just put up 3,626,139. Oh yes!

Oh, wow, congrats!!

[JLV 2k5]

Hey guys, first time poster to your forum. I'm on here because I love Decimation X, great game! Congrats on the success, I am also really excited about Duality.

I am friends in RL with Rancid3000 who introduced me to the game a couple weeks ago. So far I been able to consistently get into the mid one million scores with a top score of 1.8 million. Im super addicted and hope to break the 2, 3, and even higher million barriers soon.

Rancid3000 and I talk Decimation X strat all the time. The first impression of your game seems very simple but anyone who plays it for a bit soon understands this is not the case (in terms of strategy and tactics). There are several questions that have surfaced during our discussions.


1) The red boxes below the extra fighter display line. I know the line of boxes grows over time and fills up, then hollow out again. This seems to be some sort of extra fighter gauge? However I am not sure if the gauge resets exactly when you get an extra fighter. Maybe you can provide some insight? It also seems that with consecutive level clears without dying, you gain extra fighters faster. Is this true?

2) Rancid3000 just discovered that when using the "I" shield powerup, you also get points for every bullet that impacts the red shield. Great game feature. I know the first "I" comes at level 10 (this is consistent). I have also noticed that sometimes another "I" falls at the end of level 10. We now believe that this could potentially happen if you rack up enough points merely from the bullet impacts?

3) Another power up question. There is a 30 second teaser video on youtube with someone at level 105. I think i see a "W" power up at the very end of the video. Are there really more power ups that come later on, other than the "squared" and "I" ones?


These are just a couple questions for now. Thanks so much in advance for the help. I'm sure we'll start posting some level strategy pretty soon after this post.

Thanks!

[Jason]

JLV 2k5, thanks for posting. I'm glad you're enjoying Decimation X! To answer your questions:

1A. The boxes are the power-up bar. P icons fill them in. When they are all filled, you get one more bullet shot in your spread, and the number of boxes increments by 1. So it takes 1 P to get to spread = 2. It takes 2 more P's to get to spread = 3. It takes 3 more P's to get to spread = 4. Etc.

1B. Not dying makes no difference to the rate you obtain 1UPs except that when you don't die, you kill the waves faster, and get a higher time bonus, so yes, not dying makes you get 1UPs and Icon Showers faster, which are both based on points scored precisely because of the time bonus.

2. The emergence of new power-ups happen at set levels, and the game forces those power ups to appear first in those levels. So, the first power up in level 10 is always an I. Aside from this, which icon appears is completely random, although some appear more often than others. (Get those A's!) The points of bullet impacts are so minor that I doubt it affects the gameplay in any way. They are just points and nothing more.

3. Oh damn, that power up was removed, and shouldn't be in the video. It was a "weapons power up" icon which increased the strength of your bullets by 5% or 10%, so 10 or 20 of them would double your firepower (i.e. you'd shoot the same number of bullets, but they'd wreck more havoc). I never liked this power up, so I removed it. I believe level 25 has the last new power up, which is P^2, after the S^2 that appears in level 20. So, if you've gotten this far, you won't see anything new, although I have a bunch of ideas already programmed for Decimation II whenever I release that, but I cannot include them into Decimation X, as it would change the scores, and that'd be unfair to those who have been playing the original.

I'd love to hear your strategies. It's crucial for scores of 2 million and beyond.

[rancid3000]

Thanks for clearing that up Jason. Me and JLV 2k5 talk Decimation strategy all the time over Xbox Live while we play Decimation. I've gotten three 3 million plus scores so far. I'm going to talk to him later and we'll be posting more on our strategies here. I'm glad to hear you are working on a Decimation II.

We still have more questions but his post was a good starting point.