The Video Games are playing themselves. (NSMB Wii Demo Play)

[Acid King]

In this particular case? It will be received differently because it's Mario.

...which is kinda bullshit because had another developer proposed something similar in another series/genre, I don't think people would be so deferential.

In general? I don't know, but I don't really see this being implemented as a 'win button' in score-based games. Although, if you think about it, a feature like this would be really great to have in training mode (only) for any shmup.

DOJ for PS2 has something similar to what you're suggesting. But it's use in score based games isn't a question because most games aren't score oriented anymore. The problem with the concept is that games are both getting easier and are increasingly judged by the first play through. So allowing a player to bypass challenging sections strikes me as counter intuitive because it takes even the token difficulty of playing the game away and yet allows that person to see all of the game. It seems self defeating when seeing all of a game, or completing a game once, is the goal, not repeated plays or refining play like a score based game.

[jonny5]

people have gotten too used to games being very easy and the only criteria to finish is to play long enough.....

they want games you can walk through without much effort....

games are turning into slightly interactive cut-scenes.....

[szycag]

Alright - Just to play devil's advocate here...

Have you ever watched YouTube vids of a 1cc/high score and picked up new strategies/ideas?

Is this any different?

Are we reading the same article here? The way it was presented in this story, this feature doesn't kick you back where you started demo play once it shows you what to do, although that's a potential option for the execution of demo play in the patent that was filed. This will play the hard part for you, then let you take control after the hard part is over, retaining the progress the computer made. I'm pretty sure that's how it was stated. In other words, Level 6-3 is too hard, I'll have the computer play it for me. We'll see if 6-4 is more my speed. Nope, I still suck, I'll just watch the computer play it. Sooner or later I'll see the ending and I can sell this thing back to Gamestop. Yes, some people actually think like this, and Nintendo couldn't care either way. OF COURSE it's different. This is compromising what a video game is in and of itself to make more money. It's not just getting some tips from a FAQ or recording... you still have to actually accomplish what you saw that way and have the reflexes. It is horrible for the future of games, and if this game is a success it will only prove to developers that they should have thought of it before Nintendo.

As someone has stated, I suppose it makes sense if you're gonna get four members of the Wii's target audience playing the same game together to have some sort of catch-up feature. But the feature should have stopped there. It probably will not but we'll see when the game is released just how lenient it will be with players.

[gabe]

Are we reading the same article here? The way it was presented in this story, this feature doesn't kick you back where you started demo play once it shows you what to do, although that's a potential option for the execution of demo play in the patent that was filed. This will play the hard part for you, then let you take control after the hard part is over, retaining the progress the computer made. I'm pretty sure that's how it was stated. In other words, Level 6-3 is too hard, I'll have the computer play it for me. We'll see if 6-4 is more my speed. Nope, I still suck, I'll just watch the computer play it. Sooner or later I'll see the ending and I can sell this thing back to Gamestop.

Yes, we are reading the same article, but the article is extremely vague, and based on a very brief quote that has been translated from Japanese, and lifted from a different publication all together... This is exactly how rumors get started. I think many folks in this thread are assuming way too much. I'm simply trying to keep an open mind until more details are available.

At this point, I am forced to think that the "demo-play" mechanic is not quite as cut-and-dry as that quote would lead you to believe. I would have to think that Nintendo will include some sort of incentive to actually PLAY the game.

If you can truly press a button, set down your Wii-mote, kick up your feet and watch 30+ hours of "game play" unfold before your eyes, I will gladly eat my words, and give up my Nintendo fan-boyishness.

[Acid King]

At this point, I am forced to think that the "demo-play" mechanic is not quite as cut-and-dry as that quote would lead you to believe. I would have to think that Nintendo will include some sort of incentive to actually PLAY the game.

If you can truly press a button, set down your Wii-mote, kick up your feet and watch 30+ hours of game play unfold before your eyes, I will gladly eat my words, and give up my Nintendo fan-boyishness.

Worst case scenario I think is that it is something akin to a fast forward button that gives the CPU control of your character and clears whatever part you are stuck on.

[antron]

has anyone ever wished they could take control of a replay (like in 360 ports) at any point, to correct a mistake?

[PepsimanVsJoe]

Well at least I wouldn't have to bother watching those playthroughs on youtube to determine what I think of games I've purchased.

[lgb]

This is compromising what a video game is in and of itself to make more money.

No it's not, try again.

[Twiddle]

This is compromising what a video game is in and of itself to make more money.

No it's not, try again.

carpel tunnel is a badge of honor
game developers are never stupid
bad game design isn't bad, it's just different

any other shitty points you'd care to make

[louisg]

carpel tunnel is a badge of honor
game developers are never stupid
bad game design isn't bad, it's just different

any other shitty points you'd care to make

Steep rank is intentional, very clever, and not, repeat NOT put there by arcade game developers to limit play time to the cash-earning standard 3 minutes

(didn't bother to read the thread)

[Twiddle]

carpel tunnel is a badge of honor
game developers are never stupid
bad game design isn't bad, it's just different

any other shitty points you'd care to make

Steep rank is intentional, very clever, and not, repeat NOT put there by arcade game developers to limit play time to the cash-earning standard 3 minutes

(didn't bother to read the thread)

some people don't like a game where the challenge stays pathetically easy (play garegga w/o extends for example)

[Acid King]

has anyone ever wished they could take control of a replay (like in 360 ports) at any point, to correct a mistake?

The DOJ port for PS2 lets you do this with your recorded runs, but I don't think it allows you to save them afterwards. I think you can also do that with the included superplay demos, but am not sure. I sold my copy awhile ago.

[DJ Incompetent]

To anyone saying the games will now be more challenging thanks to the inclusion of play-it-for-you mode : lol. I repeat, lol. It will still be just as baby-mush easy as it was before.

probably

Hey here's the Larry Koopa boss battle. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CLXIhpZeNco
You were right. I was wrong.

Fuck this noise.

[lgb]

carpel tunnel is a badge of honor

You'd better have your carpal tunnel. I know, but you misspelled it.

And repetitive tasks, while they do not help, have not lead straight to CTS so far. And simply playing a shmup for an hour or so isn't going to fill the quota that is anything "dangerous".

game developers are never stupid

Maybe. Explaining this could be hard, though.

bad game design isn't bad, it's just different

In a sense, just about every game out there will suffer from "bad game design" because someone will hate it. Likewise, the opposite.

any other shitty points you'd care to make

I'd call you a fanboy, but we already established that.

[gabe]

Nintendo has finally released more details on how this mechanic works.

From: http://www.nintendo.co.uk/NOE/en_GB/new ... 14635.html

"New Super Mario Bros. Wii is also the first Nintendo game to feature a dynamic help system, which allows you to access a mode showing how a level can be completed if you are stuck. The best thing about this mode is that you are free to jump into the action you’re watching on screen at any time!"

It sounds to me like this is a "practice mode" that doesn't actually progress you through the game.

[ZOM]

I think this video kinda fits the thread: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xpkQmCGgMus

[Enhasa]

gabe: What about "free to jump into the action you're watching on screen at any time" sounds at all like "doesn't actually progress you through the game?"

That was really encouraging ZacharyB. Makes me want to do something creative. I guess I never thought video games would need some sort of indie movement like music and movies did. When I started hearing the phrase indie games it sounded really silly. But it's shaping up that way really fast.

That ship has already sailed, and we weren't invited.

This is the beginning of a downward spiral.

I would say that it started when the J-RPG genre got big. Having a hard time? Just run back and forth here for a few hours and fight some weak monsters.

On the contrary, I'm actually a huge fan of leveling systems. They let me have a challenge that games without leveling systems almost never do. I treat grinding exactly like credit feeding in an arcade game. Most people do too, except that's why they do both. Anyway, it's very much like a rank system. You get rewards for keeping rank high (more fun and appropriate difficulty level, faster times, less tedium), and people who can't handle that keep ranked down (appropriate difficulty level, less frustration, and typically they don't mind the tedium because they've grown conditioned to it).

But of course this leads into:

True, but I think a lot of games are actually designed with this in mind. I'm playing Valkyrie Profile 2 right now, and I can tell you right now that there is no way in hell I would have the patience to grind a bunch of item components only to find that the resulting item sucks ass.

You don't need to look at a FAQ. You don't need to grind or exhibit patience. lurn2play

True, but knowing Miyamoto there will be limits to the feature. If it just lets you skip a really annoying part and continue having fun, I don't see where the problem is.

I don't think you know Miyamoto. Nothing really meant by that, just saying is all.

Further proof can be found in the fact that my friends and I can enjoy a multi-player game with our non-gaming girlfriends/wives and EVERYONE has a good time. The game does a fine job of leveling the playing field, while still rewarding skill, and somehow ensuring that no one feels cheated.

No one feels cheated because it's not called rank, even though it's much, much more unfair in a multiplayer game.

[gabe]

gabe: What about "free to jump into the action you're watching on screen at any time" sounds at all like "doesn't actually progress you through the game?

My interpretation of Nintendo's latest statement is that this a mode that exists separate from the actual game. An interactive practice mode, if you will. Once you see/master a maneuver in the 'practice mode' you can switch over to the 'story mode' and use your new skills where they actually count.

[kengou]

No more need for speculation and fearmongering, fellows! We have actual information!

http://kotaku.com/5374432/kind-code-dem ... auto+pilot

Nintendo is using this new help option to offer an unprecedented amount of in-game assistance, but it will only be available to players using the game's single-player mode who have failed at a level eight times. Nintendo's intent is to offer Super Guide as a helper for its less skilled customers and to allow its designers to make some of the game's levels devilishly difficult.

The levels of New Super Mario Bros. Wii I saw today seemed harder than those of the last side-scrolling Mario platformer, New Super Mario Bros. on the DS. Super Guide does appear to have given Nintendo license to make the new game tougher and may provide the relief some players need to get to the end of the latest Mario world-hopping adventure.

Seems perfectly fine to me. The levels are harder than Nintendo's recent fair, and if you really get stuck, the game will offer to help you through a particular spot, at which point you may take over and continue the rest of the level. Furthermore this only works when playing the game alone, not with three other players.

I don't know why anyone would have an issue with this. It's an OPTION for less-skilled players. The rest of us don't need to consider it.

[Ed Oscuro]

The levels are harder than Nintendo's recent fair,

but are they harder than a RENFAIRE?

*mongers fear*

By the way, Gradius Galaxies has the demo mode - sure it only unlocks places you've been to, but I believe you can see parts you haven't gotten through yet. Which is fine by me because the damn stage 6 wavy tentacles are a pain in the ass (I've only watched one segment of the autoplay on the cart though).

[EPS21]

So basically this is a misconception that got blown way out of proportion by manchildren worried that their last bastion of pride (video game accomplishments) is being threatened by normal people who don't invest so much time in this hobby?

Thank you internet, please don't ever change, it wouldn't be nearly as entertaining.

[Enhasa]

Not nearly as entertaining as the apologist circle-jerk you're participating in.

[Elixir]

I like how Persona PSP practically plays itself. Unless you're in a situation where some enemies absorb your attacks or are immune, you can just set everything to Auto and boss battles become a breeze.

And this is on Expert.

[szycag]

1up may have sensationalized the story, I probably did overreact, but there's more than enough evidence already out there to suggest that game companies are starting to care a little too much about the bottom line, and that's something to get angry about. The problem isn't making a game "normal people" can play too, it's just seeing the patterns and how those things lead to artificial difficulty, contextual static scenarios instead of dynamic thoughtful scenarios. Reward absent of risk. It DOES cheapen the experience and it's not about manchild backpatting, it's about losing what makes a video game what it is in the process. You can't please everyone all the time, but apparently the cost of making today's video games means you have to try. I mentioned the modern Prince of Persia game already. That Bayonetta video someone posted is... eek.

It's wait and see with this particular instance, but the article just raised a few warning flags I wanted people to be conscious of. I'm SO glad that it is as they've described. I really want an excellent new SMB. I want demo play to mean that they'll have the license to make the game (genuinely) more difficult, risky and rewarding in a balanced way. However, mass appeal just seems to come with those trappings more often than not, and this game needs to prove itself after the very shallow DS offering.

[EPS21]

Game companies for a long time have cared too much for the bottom line, but it seems with each passing generation of consoles it exponentially increases, so much that the hardware is designed to primarily cater this way (particularly the Wii, and perhaps Natal soon). I think people have been aware of this for a while, and that's fine with me, leave the casual games with casual game players, and games that don't spoon feed you the entire way for the rest of us.

I can see why in this case, with a new SMB game this has become so sensational, because these games originally were a platformer, a genre requiring some skill to navigate your way safely through the game's obstacles, and also a game many gamers hold dearly to in their history of gaming, to be reduced to the casual-fied muck flooding the market today. Again, as we learned more about the game, if you really die more than 8 times in a single level in what's bound to be a not difficult at all game, the person playing probably feels like (and is) a total failure, and would never pick up the game again. So in the end this isn't really an issue for someone with at least elementary hand-eye coordination. As much as I'd like to see new SMB hold true to what made the originals so great, unfortunately I think it will end up being lame, geared towards this growing and highly profitable casual audience. We'll see, but I recommend you try it in some way before buying it. I wouldn't want to support Nintendo anymore if this is the only direction they're pursuing, it certainly is that way now but maybe we can hope for a surprise

Didn't mean to offend (too much ) with my previous posts, but seeing a lot of people complain about casual games infringing on their "hardcore" games, I can't help but think those people are like that.

[Taylor]

When I was a little scamp I played through Quake and Doom with God Mode on and it was quite possibly the most boring gaming experience I've never had. I know we like to think designers these days are just using achievements, cutscenes and what games call story instead of challenge, and I know Doom and Quake were completely devoid of these elements, but I really don't think a game that completely removed challenge would be that well received. Prince of Persia didn’t let you die and did spawn a lot of cringe-worthy comments like “poetry of movement” as its stated replacement to difficulty, but if you removed the animation of you being saved with you plummeting to your death and popping out of a checkpoint it would be the same as every other modern game.

Everyone is playing for challenge, even these people who say comments like "games are about entertainment, I don't want to come home after work to more work, my life gets in the way and blah blah" -- they are just looking for a lower bar of challenge. Things like Automatic Mode provide a level of challenge "normal people" are comfortable with whereas gamers will pick a harder difficulty and give a polite "no thank you please" answer to fast forward mechanics and automatic modes. In fact I would say that any hardcore games wanting to survive should be adding a novice friendly mode, and I do think this is happening.

Deathsmiles and DoDonPachi: Daifukkatsu both have easy modes. BlazBlue: Continuum Shift and Daemon Bride both have Automatic Modes. The home ports of newer Cave titles and Calamity Trigger will, or have, come with easier modes. And these examples are chosen specifically as they were made for the skill-orientated environment of the arcade. As long as the skill ceiling is still high it doesn’t really matter, and ideally a high skill ceiling implies depth and good game mechanics.

Bayonetta might have an Automatic Mode but if you play the game without then it has a ton of combos, predefined branches, special tricks, and multiple oddball weapons equipped to your hands and feet independently. On top of that it has a whole hidden custom combo system; Because evading doesn’t reset your chain position (like it does in Ninja Gaiden, God of War, Heavenly Sword, Blood Will Tell and other branching combo games) and can be done instantly from the first frame of an attacks start up. The result is you can skip combo finishers to avoid the knock away and start new ones, skip over sections of the combo to get the stronger hits out, and attack once then evade attacks and land a finisher without any of the attacks in-between. We have been accounted for.

There are a few trends in modern games that annoy me in regards to difficulty. The first is when the higher skill ceiling clearly isn’t the method used and the harder modes are all exactly the same as the easier modes but you die faster. Effectively it’s the same game but you can make fewer mistakes, you’re still going through the same motions and ideal path. When a game changes the enemy tactics and formations a new difficulty feels like a fresh experience and I really like that.

The other is the idea that we should use dynamic difficulty adjustment more than difficulty modes and maybe even drop difficulty modes completely (I recall an article that suggested selecting “Easy” hurts player’s feelings). I imagine this has come about because Valve recently invented the Rank system that hasn’t been in games for decades with their innovative AI Director. I appreciate it's a good solution for a multiplayer game, and DDA can be good to provide a gradient between difficulty modes, but significant DDA is not good. The most important reason being that good difficulty ties directly in with good pacing, level flow, level design, difficulty peaks and troughs and other carefully designed things – it’s an art not a science. Secondly it disallows people the fun of going on difficulties below or above their station on purpose. And thirdly it makes the game world inconsistent, you know enemies take 5 bullets to kill, but you’re doing quite well so now they’re taking 6 – what? God Hand did a really good job with its DDA by presenting its value and basing several game mechanics on it – but it still clamped it based on difficulty. Whereas Resident Evil 5’s DDA is really messed up, it has difficulty setting but if you play on Easy and do really well it’s harder than playing on Normal, which kind of supersedes the only reason someone really good at the game would pick that difficulty, doesn't it?

[DJ Incompetent]

- Each 'Super Guide' playthrough was done by someone on the dev team (Aparently, some are by Miyamoto too).
- Super Guide playthroughs reveal secret actions as well.
- One secret revealed shows that hitting a coin block 10 times will send out 5 more coins on the 10th smash.
- Super Guide won't reveal secret paths or hidden items.
- Even when a player takes over for a 'Super Guide' play, the screen will still indicate that the level is being played in 'Super Guide' mode.
- If you beat the game without making a single 'Super Guide' block pop up (die 8 times on the same level), you will get a special title screen reward.

[moozooh]

By the way, if you have PS2 ports of DOJ or Espgaluda, you can also make them play themselves, then take over at any given moment.

[Alec]

Okay, this is gonna be a bit off subject, but that link in the OP is the 1st screenshot I've seen of the new SMB game. That's awesome and I'm totally gay for it now.

[Udderdude]

- Each 'Super Guide' playthrough was done by someone on the dev team (Aparently, some are by Miyamoto too).
OMG I GET TO SEE MIYAMOTO PLAY?!?! SIGN ME THE FUCK UP! GAME INDUSTURY LEGEND LOL

- Super Guide playthroughs reveal secret actions as well. One secret revealed shows that hitting a coin block 10 times will send out 5 more coins on the 10th smash.
That's their idea of a secret? They really do think their audience is retarded, don't they?

- Super Guide won't reveal secret paths or hidden items.
In most Mario games, these are stupidly easy to find anyway.

- Even when a player takes over for a 'Super Guide' play, the screen will still indicate that the level is being played in 'Super Guide' mode.
And it will likely still count as a completed level, so who cares?

- If you beat the game without making a single 'Super Guide' block pop up (die 8 times on the same level), you will get a special title screen reward.
I've got a better idea. If you die 8 times on the same level, it should show a giant "You suck" banner on the title screen instead.