Battle Bakraid.... why?

[D]

It looks like an atari ST game, or something I knocked up in MSPaint.

agreed. Let us all check out the first friggin' boss.
OMG FAIL! It's like their boss making artist was on unpaid leave the whole time and they just magnified small enemies and did a little re-touching here and there for some of the bosses.

[markedkiller78]

Kern hating on raizing again

[Dave_K.]

It looks like an atari ST game, or something I knocked up in MSPaint.

When all you have been looking at is pre-rendered cave games all day, I can understand this statement. But once you actually play Raizing games enough, you come to appreciate the original pixel designs used to convey the same level of detail, but on a 68K core! It is quite amazing what they accomplished.

agreed. Let us all check out the first friggin' boss.
OMG FAIL!

Again, what game are you comparing this to? To me the boss designs don't seem any better/less inspired than Garegga. Bakraid and Garegga are not character driven games, its machines v.s. machines, pretty cold and calculated, with Bakraid being less thematic/dramatic. In Batrider its completely character driven, from your individual ship/team choices, to the very memorable bosses, each have their own special flair/design/detail.

[Dave_K.]

Kern hating on raizing again

I have to laugh as a couple of my friends that aren't really into shmups look at those old raizing games the same way. I'm just content with throwing Under Defeat at them so they can be happy "blowing shit up" with pretty graphics.

[ZOM]

Not to pick on ZOM, but I just find it fascinating that most people still don't understand this game, and call suicides (and infinite lives in Pink Sweets) "exploits".

No offense taken and I know exactly what you're talking about, that's why I put quotation marks there. I should have worded my post better.
I don't mind suiciding in Garegga to lower rank but a score system built around it just isn't my cup of tea...I have to admit though, first time I delved into bomb chaining madness I had lot's of fun with Bakraid, but then I think I got bored after trying to get a decent score.

[FRO]

I'm probably rather alone in this, but I actually enjoy Bakraid a hair more than Garegga. I think it's mostly because Bakraid has a more friendly color scheme (bullets don't get lost as easily in the scenery), but also because I just like the pacing. I'm not a scoring hound, so I don't care about whatever whack scoring dynamics are in play, at least not right now. I just enjoy playing it more than Garegga for some reason.

[Mortificator]

I'm probably rather alone in this, but I actually enjoy Bakraid a hair more than Garegga.

You're not alone, FRO. You're not alone.

I am saving up money to make a MAME arcade cabinet, and I only want the BEST shmups being the only available games on it.. including DDP, Garegga, ESPRaDe, Guwange, Giga Wing and Batrider (and once fully emulated, Ikaruga and Radiant Silvergun as well).

SSF and nullDC (among others) run the console ports of Radiant Silvergun and Ikaruga just fine. I know the Naomi version of nullDC runs some games perfectly, though I don't believe Ikaruga is among them. You could give it a try, though I think it'd be a waste of time unless you just can't live without inserting pretend quarters into your pretend arcade.

[Acid King]

Really, the only thing to know about Bakraid's scoring system is that bombs are used offensively and stall the chain timer. Once you know that, you can just start improvising chains through sections of stage, and you earn enough points between small chains and the medals to earn a few extends and clear the normal game easy enough. And the rank isn't so severe that you have to suicide or die to clear it.

It's only as convoluted as you want it to be, really. The scoring system is basically tiered. Medal chains and simple enemy chains at the bottom then enemy chains and suicides and medal chains and catching extends in the middle, and a combination of everything at the top.

The system is a lot of fun when you learn it. Strategically bombing, extending your chain at the last possible moment with suicides, just barely killing enemies in time... I've had many close calls where I was disappointed that I didn't die. Sometimes you'll be doing well, but drop an extend and have your run ruined, but there's a lot of experimentation involved with finding paths so it's always interesting to play even if your run isn't perfect. It's good times.

[Icarus]

It's only as convoluted as you want it to be, really.

I think, from years of similar threads, that we've established that the majority of people on this forum don't want anything to be convoluted or different. At all. That means:

- a single scrolling direction;
- a powerful screen-covering weapon (for "fire and forget" - because actually learning to use weapons is a challenge);
- enemies appearing from the top/right edge of the screen only (depending on scrolling direction) so that you don't have to memorise anything;
- game difficulty that increments at a constant, or remains static, rather than adjusting to skill in any way;
- game difficulty that isn't influenced by player actions, and vice versa;
- the most basic scoring system available (enemy = 100pts, boss = 10,000pts etc);
- planes and other recognisable machinery;

Sounds like a Psikyo game, doesn't it. Or Space Invaders with a giant laser attached to your turret.
Luckily there's a billion of these cookie-cutter basic games to indulge people's tastes. ;p

[professor ganson]

So I'm an idiot and never realized that there was anything more than medal chaining in Bakraid. So what does enemy chaining involve-- getting every enemy (Zanac Neo-style) or just getting an enemy within a certain time frame (like DonPachi)? Acid King's remarks suggest the latter, but I'm not sure. And the best scores are just focused on enemy chaining at the occasional expense of medal chaining? Obviously I've been focused almost entirely on survival in Bakraid. Clearing the beginner stage is great fun. I'll need to get more extends to clear the normal stage, I suspect.

[jpj]

ddp style. but with a timer i think. like that cave game that's the 4th best shmup of all time

[Icarus]

So I'm an idiot and never realized that there was anything more than medal chaining in Bakraid. So what does enemy chaining involve-- getting every enemy (Zanac Neo-style) or just getting an enemy within a certain time frame (like DonPachi)?

Certain targets in each stage affect the multiplier - usually these are large enemies like tanks, bombers, giant turrets and hovercraft. Small popcorn enemies do nothing but get in the way.

As there is a limited number of these targets in each stage, quite often strewn about with large breaks in-between, the key to scoring is in freezing or resetting your multiplier somehow

- destroying something that affects the multiplier resets the timer and increments the multipler up;
- bombing freezes the timer at 1, and the freeze time lasts only as long as your bomb duration (which is instant chainbreak if you don't destroy something when a bomb's active);
- a suicide freezes the timer at whatever it its current value is.

If you use the command LEFT, UP, LEFT-UP and A in-game (sort of like a shoryuken rotated 180deg), you'll activate the chain timer, which will play a tone when you chain something that affects the multiplier, and when your chain breaks.

The other big effect on scoring is that the point value of everything is affected by what you destroy it with - some enemies are worth more with Shot than Bomb, and vice versa - just like Garegga. Therefore, you have to be smart with how you prolong your chain in order to maximise your score.

This clip of me chaining the Naval stage will give you a rough idea of how things work.
http://www.ikaruga.co.uk/files/fw/st_ba ... ntgain.avi

And the best scores are just focused on enemy chaining at the occasional expense of medal chaining?

Medals aren't worth squat compared to a competent chain.

ddp style. but with a timer i think. like that cave game that's the 4th best shmup of all time

Bakraid plays nothing like Dodonpachi.

[professor ganson]

Excellent. That all makes sense, so I'll have to try it out soon. Thanks, Icarus.

[Dave_K.]

And the best scores are just focused on enemy chaining at the occasional expense of medal chaining?

Medals aren't worth squat compared to a competent chain.

Medal collection/chaining in Bakraid can be thought of similarly to bee collection/chaining in DDP. Neither are worth squat in comparison to enemy chaining, but in the end, combined with enemy chaining, is what separates the great players from real pros in terms of extra bonus/score.

[captpain]

And the best scores are just focused on enemy chaining at the occasional expense of medal chaining?

Medals aren't worth squat compared to a competent chain.

Medal collection/chaining in Bakraid can be thought of similarly to bee collection/chaining in DDP. Neither are worth squat in comparison to enemy chaining, but in the end is what separates the great players from real pros in terms of extra bonus/score.

And on these boards, I'd imagine a player who collects lots of 100k medals can push his score up quite a few slots.

[Zeether]

I like the soundtrack and the graphics. If I ever make a shmup in GM or something I will make the graphics like Bakraid with the shrapnel falling off the enemies.

If I had the time I would try to do a run and see if I can pull off chaining.

[BulletMagnet]

I think, from years of similar threads, that we've established that the majority of people on this forum don't want anything to be convoluted or different. At all.

You do know that Garegga was voted tops this year, right?

Anyways, I still stand by my conviction that most shmuppers will at least try to figure out a "weird" gameplay/scoring system (of course, what qualifies under that label varies depending on who you ask) if it's explained well enough and is not necessary to figure out all at once just to survive - obviously not everyone's going to like everything, but more often than not I'd venture that a lack of hard information or guidance, and thus the means to truly get a sense of how a more complicated game works, is the culprit in turning people away.

[KindGrind]

I'd venture that a lack of hard information or guidance, and thus the means to truly get a sense of how a more complicated game works, is the culprit in turning people away.

Makes perfect sense. Had I not decided to invest serious time "learning" Garegga through Icarus' very comprehensive guide/vids, I would have never learned to play the game somewhat competently and would enjoy it infinitely less than now. Game's still hard as nails for me but I can understand why it is so and I don't get too bummed when the game kicks me in the groin.

[redeyeguy_KIO]

SSF and nullDC (among others) run the console ports of Radiant Silvergun and Ikaruga just fine. I know the Naomi version of nullDC runs some games perfectly, though I don't believe Ikaruga is among them. You could give it a try, though I think it'd be a waste of time unless you just can't live without inserting pretend quarters into your pretend arcade.

I already have Silvergun emulated on SSF, but I'd rather have the arcade version for an actual cabinet, it'd be so much cooler that way. And same thing with Ikaruga. Plus, even though the emulated console ports run at almost 100% on my laptop, I don't like the fact that HUGE explosions cause this occasional stutter or lag, which sorta kills the aesthetics for me. I think the arcade versions would just be so much simpler to deal with, and offer all that is necessary for a complete experience, especially for any visitors in my basement who see a cabinet just sitting there in the corner.


Btw yeah, I think Bakraid is just too generic for me now.. sorta like reused Batrider, but not as cool looking.



EDIT: I just played Ikaruga for the first time in my life, using nullDC....

...I almost had an orgasm, LOL. It is not just the most unique shmup I've ever played, but one of the most unique games EVER. Wow, now I know why this game is so damn legendary, and is one of the very few that can consistently hang with games like DDP and Garegga. Now Bakraid looks like Bebe's Kids after playing this! Wow... I am in TOTAL awe....

[Icarus]

Anyways, I still stand by my conviction that most shmuppers will at least try to figure out a "weird" gameplay/scoring system (of course, what qualifies under that label varies depending on who you ask) if it's explained well enough and is not necessary to figure out all at once just to survive - obviously not everyone's going to like everything, but more often than not I'd venture that a lack of hard information or guidance, and thus the means to truly get a sense of how a more complicated game works, is the culprit in turning people away.

I agree, but another thing I've noticed is that, on this forum at least, there's a culture of people either unwilling to ask for help, or unwilling to try to learn, and some are definitely unwilling to share their information. Otherwise we'd get more activity in the Strategy forum, better competition in the high-score threads, and less discussion threads devoted to bashing gameplay concepts that aren't of the "simple, straight-up" kind.

[Twiddle]

or are incurably lazy

[Rob]

EDIT: I just played Ikaruga for the first time in my life, using nullDC....

...I almost had an orgasm, LOL. It is not just the most unique shmup I've ever played, but one of the most unique games EVER. Wow, now I know why this game is so damn legendary, and is one of the very few that can consistently hang with games like DDP and Garegga. Now Bakraid looks like Bebe's Kids after playing this! Wow... I am in TOTAL awe....

[redeyeguy_KIO]

EDIT: I just played Ikaruga for the first time in my life, using nullDC....

...I almost had an orgasm, LOL. It is not just the most unique shmup I've ever played, but one of the most unique games EVER. Wow, now I know why this game is so damn legendary, and is one of the very few that can consistently hang with games like DDP and Garegga. Now Bakraid looks like Bebe's Kids after playing this! Wow... I am in TOTAL awe....

Hey, I know Bakraid doesn't suck... but the game is completely insignificant to me now that I've tried out Ikaruga. I can't help but be honest about how I feel now, lol. Plus, Bakraid never had the same kind of appeal, originality and fun factor that I seem to get from games like DDP, Garegga and Batrider... and now Ikaruga and Silvergun. Despite these factors, it's still a good and fun game, no doubt on that.

[jpj]

ddp style. but with a timer i think. like that cave game that's the 4th best shmup of all time

Bakraid plays nothing like Dodonpachi.

i was responding to todd's question of the chaining being timng based, or based on killing every enemy.

i wasn't trying to insinuate that bakraid is anywhere near as good as DDP

redeye: i have no idea if you're serious or not, but it made me smile

[Jockel]

@redeye: try playing ikaruga for score. and then you'll see why some people here don't like it.

[redeyeguy_KIO]

I understand Ikaruga can be ridiculously tough in playstyle and scoring goals (accidently shooting the wrong color + getting blown up = ahhhhh), and death becomes quite the extreme threat, but it's FUN AS HELL. That wins it for me already, even though you have to be 1337 to rack up huge points. I just love the whole package the game has.

I hope people won't assume that I'm a Bakraid hater now.. >_>

[Acid King]

Hey, I know Bakraid doesn't suck... but the game is completely insignificant to me now that I've tried out Ikaruga. I can't help but be honest about how I feel now, lol. Plus, Bakraid never had the same kind of appeal, originality and fun factor that I seem to get from games like DDP, Garegga and Batrider... and now Ikaruga and Silvergun. Despite these factors, it's still a good and fun game, no doubt on that.

I think Rob's frowny face was directed at your reaction to Ikaruga, not the slights toward Bakraid.

[clp]

Anyways, I still stand by my conviction that most shmuppers will at least try to figure out a "weird" gameplay/scoring system (of course, what qualifies under that label varies depending on who you ask) if it's explained well enough and is not necessary to figure out all at once just to survive - obviously not everyone's going to like everything, but more often than not I'd venture that a lack of hard information or guidance, and thus the means to truly get a sense of how a more complicated game works, is the culprit in turning people away.

I agree, but another thing I've noticed is that, on this forum at least, there's a culture of people either unwilling to ask for help, or unwilling to try to learn, and some are definitely unwilling to share their information. Otherwise we'd get more activity in the Strategy forum, better competition in the high-score threads, and less discussion threads devoted to bashing gameplay concepts that aren't of the "simple, straight-up" kind.

+1

[BulletMagnet]

some are definitely unwilling to share their information.

This, I think, is a big part of the overall problem, even if in some cases it's imagined - less-skilled players, especially after observing the ribbing that some newbies take here for not being aware of a particular gameplay element (or even a trivial fact), are likely to mentally equate this community with the stereotypical tourney-level fighting game player, who after kicking a "casual" player's ass in ways the latter can't even begin to comprehend, not only refuses to offer a friendly tip or two to the vanquished ("go read an FAQ or something, your suckage isn't my problem"), but basically tells him to stop playing fighting games altogether ("you're too stupid and limited in skill to EVER get it, just do us all a favor and go play Peggle instead"). Again, this isn't always even the case, as most members around here are plenty friendly, but when someone who was thinking about asking a question sees others repeatedly derided as scrubs due to something as simple as a difference in preference, they're a lot more likely to keep their yap shut.

This isn't to say that there's nobody around here who isn't much interested in learning anything, but you seem to suggest that such a mindset is a spreading epidemic among our members, and I really don't think that's the case. Definitely more of a molehill than a mountain, if you ask me.

discussion threads devoted to bashing gameplay concepts that aren't of the "simple, straight-up" kind.

I dunno, I've never taken anything resembling an exact count, but if the number of Cave-bashing threads and posts around here doesn't outnumber the "weirdo"-bashing threads and posts then they certainly come close.

[SamIAm]

Bakraid's scoring system is a little too bizarre and extreme for me to want to approach the game aiming for a high score. This, regardless of all else, is a major fault from my perspective. However, in a genre which stomps beginners flat and requires hundreds of hours to master a typical 30 minute game even for the best players, I can appreciate a game that can be as easy as this one while still having otherwise great design.

I also like Raizing bullet patterns more than any other developer's. It just the rank and scoring systems I have mixed feelings about. Without a doubt, Bakraid has some really fun patterns.