Even MORE shmups on Wii?

Zeether · Post by **Zeether** » Thu Mar 26, 2009 6:09 pm

fuck yes Solvalou

DJ Incompetent · Post by **DJ Incompetent** » Thu Mar 26, 2009 7:03 pm

Elixir wrote:
DJ Incompetent wrote:
Elixir wrote:Valid Point.
Valid Counterpoint
But you shouldn't buy games that you can already play for free, on superior emulators...

PCBs I can understand, as people would want to play them in their original form. And/or they have a supergun or arcade cabinet to support it for a better experience. Older games I can understand, such as PS1 and prior, because of the same reason and for collection's sake. But this negates both of them, because they aren't the originals, and they're surpassed by freeware emulators that do a better job in the long run.

I think I can understand the merit in buying VC games to a point, but it's only because I purchased a few that I considered my favorite Megadrive games. There's a bunch of stuff on there which I would never buy, mostly because they're roms of inferior games. Like the Ninja Spirit they have on there.

There's also the fact that all PAL Wii consoles suffer from 50Hz games, which is complete bullshit in this day and age...

Yeah, that PAL Wii bullshit I understand, to which I'd say yeah just steal everything.

I think one of the factors i failed to mention is purchase frequency.

I can totally agree with you that if somebody was needing to get acquainted with a variety of consoles to hijack all the greatest hits, with intent to play many, many games, most definitely should I just find and take on the emulators.

But on my Wii Fridge, I've only got about 10-18 games total. I've gotten a chance to experience almost everything that's relevant over the years. But there's always a few straggler games I missed. It was worth it to just pluck the one or two from each system I've missed that is available at the time rather than get a hold of every emulator for each system then google-fu the game. So I have like, 1-2 games from just about every system available, a few extra PC Engine STGs, and 3-4 Wiiwares which aren't emulated. All in once place. On a lightwight system that will probably remain well intact long after I reformatted my HD like, four times. On a quasi-wireless controller I like. 480p. Hit three buttons to play. Can't be accused of cheating on a capture. Done and done.

If cost were the only factor in deciding to do things, people wouldn't be buying bottled water and 20oz bottles of coke would never sell as the 2-liters a few isles over are at the same price.

I'll buy convenience instead of free if the circumstances are right. It doesn't make either of us wrong. It's just a preference.

lgb · Post by **lgb** » Thu Mar 26, 2009 7:10 pm

Elixir wrote:But you shouldn't buy games that you can already play for free, on superior emulators.

Technically, you should. In most cases, getting these games for free on these "superior emulators", no matter how convenient it may be, is still illegal.

bcass · Post by **bcass** » Thu Mar 26, 2009 8:17 pm

The main draw of playing a lot of these old titles is hi-score competing amongst friends. Non of these Wii releases will have anything remotely resembling online leaderboards. Not only that, but I'm fully expecting their arcade emulator to be laughable compared to MAME on a decent PC. Nintendo's own NES emulator is already considered something of a joke (as are most of the emulators on the VC). The best place for these games would have been on the 360 with all the online stuff that that machine offers. Nintendo are complete retards when it comes to online functionality.

kengou · Post by **kengou** » Thu Mar 26, 2009 8:19 pm

Elixir wrote: But you shouldn't buy games that you can already play for free, on superior emulators. It just makes absolutely no sense to pay above the price you can purchase these games on ebay for, to "support the market", or rather, feel like you're supporting some behind the scenes market that you don't know anything about.

Buying them on ebay does not contribute to the market for those games because the games are out of print and being sold with no profit or even sales data for the actual developer to utilize. When a developer puts a game on the VC, they know exactly how many sales they get. For a game like S&P, Treasure did in fact state that they were making S&P2 because of the popularity of S&P on the VC. I might not know much about how 'behind the scenes markets' work, but you can't dispute this direct quote from Nintendo's press conference last year:

"After we saw how many people downloaded it on the Virtual Console, we got the message that North America wants Sin & Punishment as well. In 2009 you're going to be playing... and you're not going to have to import it."

Source: http://wii.ign.com/articles/915/915544p1.html

Purchases on the VC DO influence some developers, it seems. If old shmups become very popular games on the VC, then it stands to reason some developers will notice and think about creating/porting new ones. I think this is a very good reason to pay for them when you could get the ROM for free.

I could turn this around and ask why anybody would buy a PCB of a game when you can just get the ROM for free and play it on an emulator, also.

Elixir · Post by **Elixir** » Fri Mar 27, 2009 3:33 am

DJ Incompetent wrote:I'll buy convenience instead of free if the circumstances are right. It doesn't make either of us wrong. It's just a preference.

Another issue I have is the lack of a reliable arcade stick for the Wii. I see your points, though. Even though I've had an American Wii previously, I wasn't able to purchase anything through it as they only accept American credit cards. Also I don't really like playing games in non-widescreen on my widescreen tv, but that's personal. PAL users get fucked again. And Nintendo recently put the prices of the Wii UP.

lgb wrote:Technically, you should. In most cases, getting these games for free on these "superior emulators", no matter how convenient it may be, is still illegal.

Then why are these games freely distributed and have been for years, aside from a few rom sites which mention that x game (like the DKC series) are still under license and cannot be freely distributed? In any case, my point is that emulators like zSNES do an excellent job; allowing you to change into almost any resolution, use any filter you like, remove any filter you like, adjust your controller to your own liking (why the fuck does the Wii not have control configs for VC games), and lets you throw in multiple savestates/loadstates.

kengou wrote:I could turn this around and ask why anybody would buy a PCB of a game when you can just get the ROM for free and play it on an emulator, also.

You can't. There's a difference between playing an SNES game or something else, on a good emulator, as opposed to playing a game in an arcade cab. Sure, you can fake it and shove a console in there, or you can get a supergun rig like I have and play games which are currently unported, like Mushi Futari. That's another thing: availability. Owning a supergun not only lets me into the arcade world, but into the world of newer games that consoles might not get.

The situation is different. With the Wii, the game has already been released originally on a different console. It has an original form and was meant to be played via that form. PCBs are the original form, and that's why people desire them (on top of availability or possibility of). There's also that "gotta get that one game we always played at the spacies, mate" feeling that a lot of people have. This applied to the Wii and me as I purchased Toejam and Earl 1, but I still own my original copy for Megadrive. I still played through the game though.

Now if PCBs started popping up on the VC as well, it'd be the same thing. Why would I bother when I can play the original? If it's for portability and for the sake of having everything in one, there's already MAME which will probably do a better job of it in the long run. I don't think I'm doing anything wrong with downloading games on MAME.

Then there's hoping that the port is good and all that shit. I don't have time for it. I'd rather just cough out some ridiculous amount on Yahoo Japan and swirl my wine glass in my left hand with an evil grin on my face, wearing nothing but a black robe on top of a polar bear skin rug with my back perched in front of a fireplace.

sfried · Post by **sfried** » Fri Mar 27, 2009 5:03 am

ZeetherKID77 wrote:fuck yes Solvalou

My sentiments exactly.

Too bad I still don't own a Wii, much less a Japanese one. I was about to remedy this...

As for the port being good, check this vid. Isn't the game technically 496x480 (which explains the black bars on the side considering they don't want the thing stretched)?

Elixir wrote:Another issue I have is the lack of a reliable arcade stick for the Wii

The Hori Wii fighting stick doesn't count?

Drascin · Post by **Drascin** » Fri Mar 27, 2009 7:23 am

kengou wrote:Buying them on ebay does not contribute to the market for those games because the games are out of print and being sold with no profit or even sales data for the actual developer to utilize. When a developer puts a game on the VC, they know exactly how many sales they get. For a game like S&P, Treasure did in fact state that they were making S&P2 because of the popularity of S&P on the VC. I might not know much about how 'behind the scenes markets' work, but you can't dispute this direct quote from Nintendo's press conference last year:

Purchases on the VC DO influence some developers, it seems. If old shmups become very popular games on the VC, then it stands to reason some developers will notice and think about creating/porting new ones. I think this is a very good reason to pay for them when you could get the ROM for free.

Exactly. That's why I always say, pirate to your heart's content, I don't care (God knows I do more than my fair share of it, too), but buy the games you really love. Because that way, the company gets the message "hey, dudes, we loved this thing! Make more like it and we'll give you money!". Which is, generally, the main encouragement a business needs. So they will do more like it, we all get to play more good stuff, and everybody wins.

bcass · Post by **bcass** » Fri Mar 27, 2009 9:51 am

Elixir wrote:(why the fuck does the Wii not have control configs for VC games)

Nintendo is a very different company these days. They no longer polish their products to perfection, as they once did. They basically do the bare minimum they can get away with.

sfried · Post by **sfried** » Fri Mar 27, 2009 8:32 pm

bcass wrote:
Elixir wrote:(why the fuck does the Wii not have control configs for VC games)
Nintendo is a very different company these days. They no longer polish their products to perfection, as they once did. They basically do the bare minimum they can get away with.

Aren't control configs dependent on each game? And why is everybody blaming Nintendo? For all I know, half the stuff they're getting these games is from Namco Bandai, Konami, or Hudson/NEC.

bcass · Post by **bcass** » Fri Mar 27, 2009 8:44 pm

Unlike with Microsoft, Nintendo set no standards for implementing online hiscore boards (for example). This means you get different games treating online hiscore tables differently (mostly in completely retarded ways such as having to manually upload/download scores as with Gradius Rebirth). And even then, you can't usually filter the scores (say, to only compare score with friends, etc). Seriously, have a look at how the 360 Leaderboards work in conjunction with friends lists, then have alook at how Wii games handle online hiscores. Nintendo's methods are a mess.

sfried · Post by **sfried** » Sat Mar 28, 2009 9:44 am

bcass wrote:Unlike with Microsoft, Nintendo set no standards for implementing online hiscore boards (for example). This means you get different games treating online hiscore tables differently (mostly in completely retarded ways such as having to manually upload/download scores as with Gradius Rebirth). And even then, you can't usually filter the scores (say, to only compare score with friends, etc). Seriously, have a look at how the 360 Leaderboards work in conjunction with friends lists, then have alook at how Wii games handle online hiscores. Nintendo's methods are a mess.

Then again, their online structure isn't what I'd call comparable to XBox Live, whic is a paid subscription. Of course it'll be a mess knowing they can't impose organization standards on developers for something that doesn't need maintenance. Then, of course, there's the cheaters...and we all know how Microsoft handled that one... (i.e. TONS of accounts being suspended.)

bcass · Post by **bcass** » Sat Mar 28, 2009 9:58 am

Sorry, but you're wrong. Xbox Live is free. The only thing you need to pay for (buy a Gold subscription) is when you want to play games online with friends or anyone else.

sfried · Post by **sfried** » Sun Mar 29, 2009 2:03 am

bcass wrote:Sorry, but you're wrong. Xbox Live is free. The only thing you need to pay for (buy a Gold subscription) is when you want to play games online with friends or anyone else.

I thought it's a monthly subscription for game updates? The charges you incur for online purchases are separate.

Post by **nZero** » Sun Mar 29, 2009 3:26 am

sfried wrote:
bcass wrote:Sorry, but you're wrong. Xbox Live is free. The only thing you need to pay for (buy a Gold subscription) is when you want to play games online with friends or anyone else.
I thought it's a monthly subscription for game updates? The charges you incur for online purchases are separate.

Nope, updates are free for everyone who can connect their box to the net. Only need the paid account to PvP online.

sfried · Post by **sfried** » Sun Mar 29, 2009 6:42 am

nZero wrote:
sfried wrote:
bcass wrote:Sorry, but you're wrong. Xbox Live is free. The only thing you need to pay for (buy a Gold subscription) is when you want to play games online with friends or anyone else.
I thought it's a monthly subscription for game updates? The charges you incur for online purchases are separate.
Nope, updates are free for everyone who can connect their box to the net. Only need the paid account to PvP online.

So the matching services do need subscriptions, then.

Elixir · Post by **Elixir** » Sun Mar 29, 2009 7:43 am

Xbox Silver is free. It lets you do basically everything, including buying games, updating games, buying gamerpics and etc, but Xbox Gold lets you play against others or cooperatively (ie. RE5). Nintendo Online doesn't exist, so comparing them is pointless. Nintendo has said outright that it doesn't care about "online gaming".

sfried · Post by **sfried** » Sun Mar 29, 2009 9:41 pm

Elixir wrote:Nintendo Online doesn't exist, so comparing them is pointless. Nintendo has said outright that it doesn't care about "online gaming".

I wasn't even comparing them. In fact, I was stating the opposite. My quipe is why do people keep blaming Nintendo for these decisions, when smart developers/publishers are the ones responsible for integrating these functions (i.e. leaderboards, co-op) into their games. Honestly, you should be bitching about the 3rd parties for not applying these givens, instead of taking a piss at Nintendo for every single decision they make. (Take a look at Blast Works, for example.)

As for not caring for online gaming...What era are you living in? 1998?

bcass · Post by **bcass** » Sun Mar 29, 2009 10:45 pm

The blame does lie with the devs, but Nintendo have to take some of that blame for not providing a proper infrastructure with standards (like proper friends lists and leaderboards).

originalz · Post by **originalz** » Mon Mar 30, 2009 12:23 am

I think we got Star Soldier R because the other Star Soldier games sold well on VC.

cj iwakura · Post by **cj iwakura** » Sun Apr 05, 2009 6:05 pm

Elixir wrote:
Udderdude wrote:
Elixir wrote:I'm sorry, is the thread title meant to be sarcastic?
Only if it was "Even MORE shmups on PS3?"
The Wii has fuck all shmups unless you consider Virtual Console, which you can't.

Castle Shikigami 3 and Ultimate Shooting Collection much?

It's more than the PS3 and 360 has going for it, at least.

Zweihander · Post by **Zweihander** » Sun Apr 05, 2009 7:33 pm

Kacoo02 wrote:More shmups is always a good thing. Here's hoping R-type Leo comes out for it.

Too bad they don't have an arcade emulator up yet.

(Unless I haven't been keeping up... I don't own the damn console... yet...)

If they do.... holy fuck, if enough people cry about it, we could get ESP Ra.De. and Dodonpachi... ...nah, it'll never happen.

SuperGrafx · Post by **SuperGrafx** » Sun Apr 05, 2009 9:13 pm

cj iwakura wrote:
Elixir wrote:
Udderdude wrote: Only if it was "Even MORE shmups on PS3?"
The Wii has fuck all shmups unless you consider Virtual Console, which you can't.
Castle Shikigami 3 and Ultimate Shooting Collection much?

It's more than the PS3 and 360 has going for it, at least.

360 has Ikaruga, Trigger Heart Excelica, and a host of of shooters already out in Japan (yes, 360 has its own version of Castle Shikigami III too!). Let's not forget that.

SockPuppetHyren · Post by **SockPuppetHyren** » Sun Apr 05, 2009 10:31 pm

SuperGrafx wrote:
cj iwakura wrote:
Elixir wrote: The Wii has fuck all shmups unless you consider Virtual Console, which you can't.
Castle Shikigami 3 and Ultimate Shooting Collection much?

It's more than the PS3 and 360 has going for it, at least.
360 has Ikaruga, Trigger Heart Excelica, and a host of of shooters already out in Japan (yes, 360 has its own version of Castle Shikigami III too!). Let's not forget that.

He's talking about physical copies, not downloads. And besides, 360 shmups in Japan aren't going to do me any good, as I don't have a Japanese 360.

cj iwakura · Post by **cj iwakura** » Mon Apr 06, 2009 4:49 am

SockPuppetHyren wrote:
SuperGrafx wrote:
cj iwakura wrote: Castle Shikigami 3 and Ultimate Shooting Collection much?

It's more than the PS3 and 360 has going for it, at least.
360 has Ikaruga, Trigger Heart Excelica, and a host of of shooters already out in Japan (yes, 360 has its own version of Castle Shikigami III too!). Let's not forget that.
He's talking about physical copies, not downloads. And besides, 360 shmups in Japan aren't going to do me any good, as I don't have a Japanese 360.

Aksys were going to localize Shikigami 360, but Microsoft said no.

So screw them.

DEL · Post by **DEL** » Mon Apr 06, 2009 1:10 pm

MadScientist wrote
landlord wrote;
lgb wrote Technically, you should. In most cases, getting these games for free on these "superior emulators", no matter how convenient it may be, is still illegal.
Bun you battyman!
By hacking into people's computers and deleting their ill-gotten roms obviously!

guigui · Post by **guigui** » Mon Apr 06, 2009 1:22 pm

DEL reminds me the time when I got lost in mirror palace.

Elixir · Post by **Elixir** » Mon Apr 06, 2009 1:30 pm

cj iwakura wrote:Castle Shikigami 3 and Ultimate Shooting Collection much?

It's more than the PS3 and 360 has going for it, at least.

Milestone is poor, and Shiki 3 was released on PC a year before coming to the 360 and Wii. Note the Wii version lacks 720p support, for obvious reasons. The 360 has more shmups than the Wii.

MR_Soren · Post by **MR_Soren** » Mon Apr 06, 2009 2:11 pm

The Wii has shmups and it's getting more shmups. Instead of pissing on this good news, can't we be happy?

Zweihander · Post by **Zweihander** » Mon Apr 06, 2009 2:49 pm

Elixir wrote:
cj iwakura wrote:Castle Shikigami 3 and Ultimate Shooting Collection much?

It's more than the PS3 and 360 has going for it, at least.
Milestone is poor

Truth. You'd think after the first two games they'd learn to devise a non-broken scoring system, but no. Hell, I'd rather play Psikyo's worst game than Milsetone's best... and I fucking hate Psikyo.