GD: DOJ system and strat

jpj · Post by **jpj** » Fri Mar 06, 2009 11:30 am

i tried maybe 6 attempts last night, but again, it's all about that sonic boom

HFD activates the hyper slightly early, and dows the tap A method on both the right arm and the main turret. i guess hyper activation is based on where the shells appear? ie if before you destroy the main turret and the shells appear to the right of you, you can hit those and not damage the main turret whilst travelling to the right handside

and i guess if you hyper after destroying the right turret, it's easier to activate the hyper and *feel* how much time you have before lasering, than when you're in the midst of lots of bullets

you can probably activate a hyper really early on this guy and get used to some of the timings. i bet people don't do that though because it would be impossible to chain the first two turrets on those horizontal things after the 1up in a non hypered state

PROMETHEUS · Post by **PROMETHEUS** » Fri Mar 06, 2009 11:39 am

6 attempts?! haha feel the pain of not having savestates to practice. I have made over 40 attempts in 20 minutes the other day :p

Well the earlier you activate your hyper, the more quickly you deal damage to the cannon, which isn't what you want.

Cool !

jpj · Post by **jpj** » Fri Mar 06, 2009 11:45 am

naaah ps2 port is safe as fuck. i have it so with death on, and 1 hyper in stock. so i start the level, practice the diagonal platforms, suicide, then practice the turret, suicide, practice the boss

save-states would be nice, but i need those plan B's

re: hypering him: only if it's held down. i wanna try and see what happens with a tap A technique throughout

i've learnt the best way for the first midboss in 1-5 as well

but now i have to flip my tv back and play progear a lot before it ends on ebay

PROMETHEUS · Post by **PROMETHEUS** » Fri Mar 06, 2009 11:49 am

oh ye I forgot to tell you I figured out for the 1-5 midboss that all you need is to destroy it when it's at the top of the screen, this way your laser is already up there and always hits something early enough.

jpj · Post by **jpj** » Fri Mar 06, 2009 12:38 pm

maybe the game doesn't like me, but that technique only worked for me half the time

i encourage the boss to stay towards left when he appears, so that he will move right first on his second pattern. i wait for him to drop right in front of me, then activate hyper. moving right, then left, i will kill him before he starts his first pattern again, and around the left area of the screen.

this is actually the same technique most japanese players are doing, but they hyper a fraction earlier, and move up the screen, so the boss stays situated higher up. i used to do it this way as well, with some success

but watching the HFD replay, i realise lower is more successful*

(i also posted some random thoughts in the BL hi score thread at cave-stg ^_^)

*also take into account that you need to be high up the screen with the other method, so more risk of death as well

PROMETHEUS · Post by **PROMETHEUS** » Fri Mar 06, 2009 1:11 pm

jpj wrote:this is actually the same technique most japanese players are doing, but they hyper a fraction earlier, and move up the screen, so the boss stays situated higher up. i used to do it this way as well, with some success

*also take into account that you need to be high up the screen with the other method, so more risk of death as well :)

yes yes that's what I mean you need to do that if you want it to always connect. I connect 100% of the time when doing that. Of course it's harder, I'm doing this on max rank in practice and I do die sometimes. You could suicide @1-4 boss to make it easier.

Those suicide strategies after the first bomb bonus are okay until you know you could no miss no bomb the first loop. Then it's no good. Also should take into account that you lose 10M with each suicide.

PROMETHEUS · Post by **PROMETHEUS** » Fri Mar 06, 2009 6:29 pm

woo hooo I got it done like 5 times just now, the Cannon Chaining !~!~!
it's actually doable! With very good timing and just a lil bit of luck with the shells it connects to the door. I think with some practice I could pull it off maybe with 30% or 40% rate of success. It's definitely one hard chaining trick. "Less anal chaining compared to ddp" my ass!

moozooh · Post by **moozooh** » Fri Mar 06, 2009 6:36 pm

Well, you're talking about the hardest trick in DOJ, which you have successfully pulled off within, like, two weeks' play. You haven't chained the entire stage 5 in DDP despite playing it for about four years. ;)

jpj · Post by **jpj** » Fri Mar 06, 2009 6:54 pm

PROMETHEUS wrote:woo hooo I got it done like 5 times just now, the Cannon Chaining !~!~!
it's actually doable! With very good timing and just a lil bit of luck with the shells it connects to the door. I think with some practice I could pull it off maybe with 30% or 40% rate of success. It's definitely one hard chaining trick. "Less anal chaining compared to ddp" my ass!

great stuff

how is stage 5 going? and when are you gonna do some full runs and post some new scores?

shame i can't play now for a couple of weeks

PROMETHEUS · Post by **PROMETHEUS** » Fri Mar 06, 2009 7:10 pm

moozooh wrote:Well, you're talking about the hardest trick in DOJ, which you have successfully pulled off within, like, two weeks' play. You haven't chained the entire stage 5 in DDP despite playing it for about four years. ;)

Yeah but I never got a video to show me how to do it then. I only learned the last part of 1-6 once I got myself a video of it too, even if I had to readapt it from A-S to A-L. You could figure out by yourself the hardest chaining stuff, but to me it's just too tedious and boring so I won't bother until someone shows me the way.

jpj wrote:great stuff Cool

how is stage 5 going? and when are you gonna do some full runs and post some new scores? Smile

shame i can't play now for a couple of weeks Confused

screw what I said just before, I can already do the cannon like 50%! There are a few timing stuff I didn't pay enough attention to before, now if I don't die and if I'm not unlucky with shells I just get the chain. However, the part that comes after isn't quite there yet so I only get the few helis and power up ship as a bonus into the chain, for 7 additionnal millions.

As for stage 5 I know most of it now, it's not consistent enough yet but I'm confident it will be soon.

I'll finish learning stage 5, see what's up with the last boss, work on consistency everywhere (especially stage 4 and 5), and maybe I will start doing runs then. But since those runs would go into second loop, it'd be best to learn 2-1 and 2-2, maybe 2-3 before starting runs...

malik11 · Post by **malik11** » Mon Mar 09, 2009 4:46 am

Maybe it's very silly for me to ask this at this point, but are the second loop requirements the same for Black Label as white label?

jpj · Post by **jpj** » Mon Mar 09, 2009 12:45 pm

i've only ever met the ten bees on three levels requirement, but i believe yes dude

jpj · Post by **jpj** » Sun Mar 22, 2009 2:40 pm

holy fucking shit

i was just pissing about on the ps2 version, and did HFD's technique of chaining into the stage 3 midboss - and it works on white label !!

i'm so excited i paused, and i might just go take a picture as well

i'm at the midboss with a 400+ chain.

so..

a) it is possible to chain all of stage 1-3 in one single chain
and b) the world record on white label is definitely beatable

Plasmo · Post by **Plasmo** » Sun Mar 22, 2009 6:19 pm

Why shouldn't it be possible on white label? I always thought that it was?
Nevertheless it's of course extremely difficult to pull off, so congrats to you!

jpj · Post by **jpj** » Sun Mar 22, 2009 6:29 pm

i always assumed it was possible, but never knew it to be 100% true. but now we do

i am having major stress with the 1up cannon on stage 4 though

PROMETHEUS · Post by **PROMETHEUS** » Mon Mar 23, 2009 3:59 pm

A few notes to help about the 1up-canon :

- Let live 5 tanks before attacking the canon. You slowly kill them to the middle-left of the screen AFTER destroying the left part of the canon. 5 is better than 4 ! Start applying your laser to the main part of the canon as late as possible after the 5 tanks died. You should stay as high as possible to the left of the screen while killing those tanks so as to herd the canon's attack away and let you take your time to kill the tanks.
- You definitely want to kill as many shells as possible while maintaining your laser on the main part of the canon so as to damage it as slowly as possible. Be careful not to hit a shell not long enough and then move away without destroying it : your chain will die. Use the same placement sequence as in the BL videos and destroy shells.
- Use an hyper at the moment displayed in the videos (preferably the BL videos, it's easier, the white label one is something he does only when he's lucky to get a shell placed exactly how he wants before moving right. It doesn't make much more points either.). Try using it rather early so that you can still hit the next shell without your chain dieing : if you do it as early as possible you'll damage the main part of the canon as little as possible, which is what you're trying to do during this whole part.
- As you hit the second shell after you have used your hyper (or 1 shell if the second one is placed too far and it's dangerous), wait till your chain is almost dead before applying your laser to the right part of the canon. Tap A about 3 times then hold : the right part is destroyed. Move to the top of the screen with your laser held and again, wait till your chain is almost dead before applying your laser to the main part of the canon again. No need to tap A here, and it's less dangerous not to cause you won't get threatened by shells and will have less chances of cutting your chain if your tap-timing is slightly off. Moving to the top of the screen while waiting for your chain-meter to deplete helps before you will be avoiding the last canon's attack by doing so AND it allows you to hit the main part of the canon with only the back of your aura and not the laser itself, so you can kill it slower.
- Hit the door before your chain meter depletes and be happy... for the next couple of seconds anyway.

jpj · Post by **jpj** » Mon Mar 23, 2009 5:11 pm

cheers prom, but it's not so much a case of knowing how to do it, or seeing it done. more that i need to see what i'm doing wrong. or not wrong, but not optimum enough to hold the chain. shame i don't have a video recording equipment

i was practicing about 4 hours yesterday, mixture of this, diagonal platforms, stage 3 midboss trick, and stage 5 first midboss

i too kill the left turret *before* killing any tanks, ie moving upwards slightly. none of the jap replays do that, and they still do it better

TAC kills six shells and does it successfully. HFD, only four shells

(he has some badluck, but makes a good recovery) but for B-E he actually messes it up in 1-4 so that makes me feel better

i get the feeling that my problem is two things: approaching the section, i don't move my laser from centre to left turret as early as it is possible. and after destroying the right turret, probably not high up enough when lasering the central turret.

here's a question: do you use any visual clues/markers? and when do you know precisely it's the correct time to hyper?

(i am not a fan of these chains that require you to stare at your GPM for the exact chaining/hyper timings

)

PROMETHEUS · Post by **PROMETHEUS** » Mon Mar 23, 2009 6:33 pm

Goongrave wrote:Thank you prom!

And by the way: I always lose chain at the beginning of the cannon, when you have to go from the center part to the left part -_-v In the WL dvd he do it without problems in the BL dvd he get there with the hyper on :O

What do you do?

While connecting to the main part of the canon at the beginning, go to the top of the screen and point blank it. After a few seconds, you can move to the right and connect to the left part IF you are at point blank : if you are NOT at point blank, then your laser will have to travel a little distance between the main and the left part, because the left part's hitbox is located a little bit higher than the main. That's why your chain breaks. That and/or you're going left too early (need to leave time for the left part's hitbox to enter the playing area).

jpj wrote:here's a question: do you use any visual clues/markers? and when do you know precisely it's the correct time to hyper?

(i am not a fan of these chains that require you to stare at your GPM for the exact chaining/hyper timings :( )

During the parts where I wrote "wait till your chain is almost dead to...", I watch the chain meter to know exactly when I should activate my laser so that it's as late as possible.
For the hyper activation, you basically activate it exactly when this particular iteration of the canon's attack's second wave comes to you and you're about to dodge it. There is like a 1,5 second window where it's good to activate it, the earlier the better.
Don't worry about messing it up sometimes, apparently the best players mess it up a lot, and I think the luck factor is such that even if you play this part perfectly you will still fail 25% of the time, because of the shells.

PROMETHEUS · Post by **PROMETHEUS** » Mon Mar 23, 2009 6:34 pm

congrats for figuring out the stage 3 trick by the way. Maybe I will try doing it as well in the future if I can get HFD's video >.<

jpj · Post by **jpj** » Mon Mar 23, 2009 6:59 pm

i do the same, it's the 3rd semi-circle of bullets, just before it hits you. so i must be damaging the main turret too much on some runs. it's damn near driving me mad

the stage 3 chain is very tricky, probably not something i would actually do in a run, because it also carries a high risk of death (and wasted hyper). after killing the last circular tower with spinning thorns, release the laser (so as not to reveal the bee behind it), move up left and kill some enemies with tapping C, DON'T destroy the turret to your left firing at you, move to the centre and reveal the bee, continue moving right and activate hyper, tap C as far right as possible til all popcorn are dead, move centre and tap A twice to kill the first section of the flying craft, move left and destroy turret, move to centre and tap A twice, and hold on the third time. by this point the flying craft is virtually sat on top of you, and you have very little breathing space. do it right, and you will connect with the midboss before the chain breaks. this, diagonal platforms, and 1up turret are places where i have to watch the GPM closely, and i hate it for that. having to activate a hyper *just* as it's about to reset

for the midboss (i failed here) you need to point blank him with the laser. you will inevitably take out one arm, but then just concentrate on his body. if you aren't very close to him, you will take too long (my mistake) and the hyper will run out, and you'll lose the chain when he dies anyway. kill him quick, then tap A on the weird circular things he drops, cross your fingers, and the wave of popcorn enemies will come down just in time

PROMETHEUS · Post by **PROMETHEUS** » Mon Mar 23, 2009 8:14 pm

sounds like a pain in the ass! how many points is that worth?

jpj · Post by **jpj** » Mon Mar 23, 2009 8:24 pm

about 60 mill more than playing it the normal way

and yeah, very irritating

i'm sadly playing deathsmiles this month, but i'm gonna come back to doj. it would be great to get a solid 1st loop together with all chains, but i need a lot of work.

also, the 1up cannon is easier in BL because the bullets are smaller

PROMETHEUS · Post by **PROMETHEUS** » Mon Mar 23, 2009 8:48 pm

jpj wrote:also, the 1up cannon is easier in BL because the bullets are smaller :)

woot ? you mean the shells ? doesn't that make it harder ?

edit : oh it seems the bullets fired by the canon are smaller indeed.

PROMETHEUS · Post by **PROMETHEUS** » Tue Mar 24, 2009 12:55 pm

Goongrave wrote:http://www.mediafire.com/file/gywizgtyjwh/Stage 1-3 trick .mp4

Prom I've uploaded the part of the HFD BL dvd were he demonstrates the trick hope it helps!

Thank you! I will try to learn this after I get sort of consistant in stage 5. I don't have that much time to play these days so I guess I won't start runs in less than a month or two!

third_strike · Post by **third_strike** » Tue Mar 24, 2009 6:53 pm

PROMETHEUS wrote: I guess I won't start runs in less than a month or two!

OH-MY-GOD!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

What you do in this time?
Don't say what I am thinking!
Cool!

PROMETHEUS · Post by **PROMETHEUS** » Tue Mar 24, 2009 7:56 pm

third_strike wrote:
PROMETHEUS wrote: I guess I won't start runs in less than a month or two!
:shock: :shock: OH-MY-GOD!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!:shock: :shock:
What you do in this time?
Don't say what I am thinking!
Cool!

what do you think I would do??!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

third_strike · Post by **third_strike** » Wed Mar 25, 2009 1:04 am

Training with save states.
Cool!

captpain · Post by **captpain** » Wed Mar 25, 2009 3:27 am

This type of thing makes me wonder how all those Japanese dudes score as high as they do when (as I understand it) they play all on actual arcade hardware O_O

EOJ · Post by **EOJ** » Wed Mar 25, 2009 5:40 am

captpain wrote:This type of thing makes me wonder how all those Japanese dudes score as high as they do when (as I understand it) they play all on actual arcade hardware O_O

It's simply because they are skilled enough to get scores the old fashioned way.

moozooh · Post by **moozooh** » Wed Mar 25, 2009 7:52 am

captpain wrote:This type of thing makes me wonder how all those Japanese dudes score as high as they do when (as I understand it) they play all on actual arcade hardware O_O

They spend hundreds and thousands of hours on it. No joke. ISO himself said he had spent over one thousand hours on Perfect Cherry Blossom. Fucking Perfect Cherry Blossom! And even that wasn't enough to have more than 5 world records on it because another dude spent ~1900.